022 switch tracks

Never thought of it, but it's an interesting idea.  I suspect you'll want to have a time delay so that you only energize the coil for a fixed amount of time when you switch.  You will also probably want indication that the switch has actually moved to the commanded position.

 

Thank you for your reply to my idea. My idea basically maintains all the components of the switch including the existing controllers, the sliding contact mechanism minus the electrical contacts. That is where the relay(s) come in to eliminate faulty electrical contacts. The relay(s) would be solid state in minature size so as to be placed under the cover of the switch mechanism. Any ideas on the wiring diagram would be of help. Once again thanks for your interest.
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O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:

>Reply By gunrunnerjohn: 022 switch tracks
>

Since the sliding contacts are an integral part of how the switch operates, you'll have to simulate that somehow.  I haven't given much thought to this, but I'd be thinking of perhaps an opto sensor to activate the relay.  A simple relay, even a latching one, doesn't seem that it'll solve the problem, you have to key off the switch actually changing positions.

 

Just use the method K-Line used for their remote switches using a SPDT snap action(micro) switch.

It's not quite that simple, you have manual and non-derailing functions that you have to account for and feed back the switch positions.

K-Line did it with just a single SPDT micro switch and a travel limit slide to actuate the switch. Works exactly like a 022.

 

The microswitch is key to the operation, you need something sensing position.  If you want positive control of the switch, I'd put one at each end of the travel so you could energize the coil until the operation completes.  One issue with the O22 switches is the coil voltage is removed a bit early and sometimes the switch doesn't make the full trip.

 

Thank you for your reply. Any more info would be helpful.
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O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:

>Reply By ADCX Rob: 022 switch tracks
>

Thank you again. I don't know about using an opto sensor. I will consider it though.
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O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:

>Reply By gunrunnerjohn: 022 switch tracks
>

The microswitch would work, I'd probably consider one on each end of the travel and use those to supply coil voltage.

 

Here's a SPDT Snap Action Lever Switch that looks like a decent option.

I'll post pictures of the K-Line mechanism and microswitch later when I get home from work(unless someone beats me to it).

 

If it can be adapted to fit within the 022 motor housing, it would be a great work-around to the sometimes finicky slides that were designed by Lionel in the mid 1930's. LTI did them a further disservice by cheapening the copper contacts to an unacceptable printed circuit design that wears out quite quickly.

A circuit diagram of the K-Line would be useful.

 

Not much to diagram - the red shellacked wires are for the "thru" coil, the copper shellacked wires for the "out" coil. One end of each coil is connected to it's trigger rail and binding post, the other end to either the NC("thru") or NO("out") terminal of the snap switch. The hot(whether fixed or track voltage depending on user setting) is the yellow wire connected to the common terminal of the snap switch:

 

Thanks,Rob. I'm sure it can be done!!!
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O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:

>Reply By ADCX Rob: 022 switch tracks
>

That seems to lave the voltage on the coil all the time, that'll cook the coils in an 022 switch.

As you know, there is voltage on at least one of the coils at all times on the 022 models also, unless you remove all 3 bulbs.

Rob, there's very low current in the coils, if you measure it you'll find only a couple of volts drop across the coils, the voltage is all dropped across the bulbs.  The microswitch will leave full current (and voltage) on the coils.  I know for a fact that will smoke them, the won't stand up to the full voltage.

 

I just tried one on the bench with 12V connected directly to the coil.  It wasn't long before it was VERY warm.  This is a junk switch motor, so I wasn't too worried about it's health.

 

 

There is no power to the coils at all on the K-Line switches with the bulbs(including the controller) removed.

 

The Microswitch shuts power off to the coil(at the end of the swivel rail travel) which was grounded by a passing train on the control rail.

 

The other control rail has no train on it, so although the microswitch has now energized the other coil with "hot" current, there is no ground/return to complete the circuit. It's rather ingenious and simple - the switch just shuts off current to the solenoid coil as the plunger "lands" into it. In the absence of K-Line's brass "hoop" actuator, two SPST microswitches could be used - one at each end of the plunger travel.

 

There is no connection between the coils, they are completely isolated from each other. This is the main difference from Lionel which have a common connection where the coils are powered by the center rail or fixed voltage jack and ground/return is switched by the sliding contacts.

Hence my desire to see an actual wiring diagram.   I have never looked closely at how the K-Line switches operate, as I've never personally had any.

 

I was just cleaning up some switch motors from some Lionel 5165 / 5166 switches.

They used the micro switches instead of the sliding contacts!

 

 

That's a real improvement, I'll bet those are a lot less trouble-prone.  That plastic plate and the microswitches would be a nice retro-fit kit.

 

If they'd only gotten rid of the anemic connection between the switch motor and the switch track...

Reply By Yardmaster: 022 switch tracksYardmaster:
Thank you for this information. From your point of view, does it look like a do able retrofit into the 022 switches of old??
mike1
----- Original Message -----
From: O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum
To: mike1
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 6:37 PM
Subject: Reply By Yardmaster: 022 switch tracks

Reply By gunrunnerjohn: 022 switch tracksGunrunner john:
Thank you for your valuable input into this project. I refer you to the latest input by Yardmaster. Interesting?? Your continued input is appreciated.
mike1
----- Original Message -----
From: O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum
To: mike1
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 3:14 PM
Subject: Reply By gunrunnerjohn: 022 switch tracks

Reply By ADCX Rob: 022 switch tracksADCX Rob;
Your interest into my dilemma has been greatly appreciated. Please take note of the latest input by Yardmaster. I find it very similar to your suggestion.
mike1
----- Original Message -----
From: O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum
To: mike1
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 12:38 PM
Subject: Reply By ADCX Rob: 022 switch tracks

Here is a picture comparing the 2. All there are is 2 retaining pins holding the contact plate to the base. You also have to figure on mounting the 2 micro switches.

 

 

Reply By gunrunnerjohn: 022 switch tracksGunrunnerjohn:
I'm wondering if Lionel may have a retro-fit kit or at least thets needed.Thanks again.
mike1
----- Original Message -----
From: O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum
To: mike1
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 6:55 PM
Subject: Reply By gunrunnerjohn: 022 switch tracks

You'd likely have to remove the two rivets for the slide, they're available and I have replaced several of them in the past.  Obviously, this requires the ability to rivet, but the parts are available.  The microswitches would have to be drilled & riveted or glued in place.  What would be useful is a template so you could accurately position the microswitches.

 

Reply By gunrunnerjohn: 022 switch tracksThe microswitches could be bought wholesale in quantities of 10 or more. The only problem might be getting the slides from Lionel. One might have to be a repair person for Lionel to get parts. W will check this one out.
----- Original Message -----
From: O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum
To: mike1
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 7:26 PM
Subject: Reply By gunrunnerjohn: 022 switch tracks

Reply By Yardmaster: 022 switch tracksThanks Yardmaster!!
----- Original Message -----
From: O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum
To: mike1
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 7:18 PM
Subject: Reply By Yardmaster: 022 switch tracks

You really just need that black plastic piece, the two new rivets, and the microswitches, the slide appears to be the same as the old switch design.

It looks like Lionel beat us to the punch on the microswitches. A conversion kit would be bees knees if made available.

Seems like that's the way it goes!

 

"A day late and a dollar short!"

 

Some day your ship will come in!

What keeps someone from holding the switch and cooking the coil?  The microswitch only protects the non-derailing feature of those.

Holding which switch?

The switch for the remote, which isn't illustrated on your drawing.

The remote is just a SPDT center off momentary (on)-off-(on) identical to the 022C-1 and like the 022, is simply connected in parallel to the trip/trigger rails with the center common terminal connected to common/ground/running rails. Holding the switch in either position does nothing but short out the indicator bulb after the switch has thrown.

OK, but the single switch still doesn't work for the 022 retrofit as you won't have the cam arrangement to only flip the switch at the end of the solenoid travel like the K-Line switches have. 

 

That's the topic at hand, how to retrofit the 022 switches.

The cam arrangement on the brass/copper hoop is the key.

 

There's nothing to say a similar design cannot be fitted to the Lionel machines, whether on the base under the switch(as Lionel has done) or within the motor/solenoid housing.

 

I'm not sure which would be easier to adopt & adapt - a mechanical solution or a solid state solution to rejuvenate sluggish/sloppy 022's.

 

I was thinking rather than opto sensors or latching relays, a simple hall effect sensor array(of 2) and logic circuit would suffice.