prrjim posted:I like the final plan the best. The removal of the double slips I think is a good idea and getting the yard lead clear of both mains is good.
Agreed. Good yard leads plus I like the (2) industrial areas at the ends of the yard leads. Lotta' operations potential right there.
Lew
I like this latest rendition also!!
Thanks for the comments gents! Clever sign Jim, have to do that! This version adds structures including the roundhouse, and modifies the cross-over in Westham to #5s.
Here is a pic of a combined commode and wash basin:
Never saw one of those, pretty tricky! 
Looks like they're all the rage in Europe and the Far East where everything is smaller. If you've ever traveled in Europe, some of the bathrooms need these, you can't even turn around without bumping into something! 
gunrunnerjohn posted:Never saw one of those, pretty tricky!
I scanned the description which says the wash basin waste falls through into the commode bowl - pretty good re-use/conservation of water! You can choose a 3 or 6-liter flush. Now why isn't this common here in the states, or at least in california?
The one I am looking at currently is 20 inches wide by 33 inches long. Fits within 3x4' perhaps? Perhaps a bit more length for maneuvering.
I actually read a similar description, and I saw several comments that were critical of that feature. If the sink has too much soap or anything else run through it, that sits in the tank and will require cleaning the tank inside periodically. I have no idea of the validity of the comments, just a note of caution.
Personally, I would use as much space as possible for the layout like your original versions use and I would lose the rest room and use the ones in your house for 4 reasons:
And I agree with the revisions to remove the double-slips and clearing the mains with the yard lead. You certainly have a knack for designing track plans!
-Greg
gunrunnerjohn posted:I actually read a similar description, and I saw several comments that were critical of that feature. If the sink has too much soap or anything else run through it, that sits in the tank and will require cleaning the tank inside periodically. I have no idea of the validity of the comments, just a note of caution.
John, I think that is the different design that I am also looking at, which seems to have problems: design fills the tank from the washbasin - best use of water, but will need cleaning in the tank occasionally - I am thinking soap scum.
The "other" design (picture above) where the basin waste goes into the commode bowl doesn't save as much water, but "california: if its yellow, let it mellow..." is diluted from the wash basin waste. No internal tank to clean - just clean the commode bowl. At least that is my understanding at the moment. Interesting stuff.
Pretty wild that a layout design leads to exploring innovative plumbing fixtures!
Greg Houser posted:Personally, I would use as much space as possible for the layout like your original versions use and I would lose the rest room and use the ones in your house for 4 reasons:
- There will be times when two people will need to use it at the same time
- One of your guests, probably male, will need to have a rather smelly #2, which will become apparent to all in a small enclosed space
- You and your friends are getting older and I venture will eventually forego the small bathroom in the train shed for a regular sized one in the house. How fun is it really to use a small bathroom like you find on airplanes and in some European countries?
- If you're not ready to have guests use the bathrooms in your house you probably should think twice about having them over to run trains
And I agree with the revisions to remove the double-slips and clearing the mains with the yard lead. You certainly have a knack for designing track plans!
-Greg
Thanks Greg: if more than one needs the facilities at the same time, one can run into the house - but pretty convenient most times for a single need at a time. Anyone that prefers can run into the house anyway.
Something like this perhaps:
I think I'd go for the second design, you have to clean that part regularly anyway.
OK, so here is a serious exhaust fan for those concerned: selectable 50, 80, and 110 CFM exhaust, "whisper quiet". Will that do?
The restroom works out to about 67.5 cubic feet. So at its highest power, this fan could totally replace the entire restroom volume about twice a minute! What a rush (of clean air)!
Chuckle: I suppose I might need an outside air intake at the floor level, so this jet engine doesn't pull all the heated or cooled air from the train room out the roof.
This much fun should be illegal: I have added a couple buildings on a rolling cart for 'Eastwick a la carte'. One connection to the layout for building power, just disconnect and roll away! I already have these buildings from Menards, might just as well use them.
The Menard's Red Owl Grocery has rotating fans on the roof, so I guess that makes 12 operating accessories? Am I expanding the category to include both operating accessories and animated accessories?
This could double as a "Man Cave", with a comfy rolling executive office-chair, a computer cart on wheels, with a big 30" monitor for working on layout plans and streaming shows over the wifi from the house. A microwave somewhere? and a mini-fridge under the layout for cold beverages.
I suppose I could mount a deer head with antlers and couple of rifles on the walls, for "man cave" credibility with the local "Georgia Boys". Or is that finally going too far?
Ken-Oscale posted
If more than one needs the facilities at the same time, one can run into the house - but pretty convenient most times for a single need at a time. Anyone that prefers can run into the house anyway.
Something like this perhaps:
Can I get an AMEN? 
SantaFeJim posted:Ken-Oscale posted
If more than one needs the facilities at the same time, one can run into the house - but pretty convenient most times for a single need at a time. Anyone that prefers can run into the house anyway.
Something like this perhaps:
Well then, why all the concern over having any bathroom at all?
Can the "can", save a few $$$ and expand your railroad.
Can I get an AMEN?
Jim, I see you feel strongly about the idea. No AMEN from me, still seems like a good idea. Actually, the restroom cuts into the front viewing area, not the layout space - maybe a couple of spurs. If deleted, I would just have a bigger viewing aisle, so no gain there. Sure, there is some expense, but if added at the time of construction, not that much. We are looking at some substantial dollars either way... a few more bucks for comfort and convenience might be worth it. I could get by without AC and power seats in my Mustang to save a few dollars as well, but why would I want to? To each their own, as they say... just a personal preference, like my desire for a turntable - I could build a layout without one.
I also had the thought, that after I am gone and my wife clears out the layout and trains, the structure could be repurposed and remodeled, with running water and a sewer connection a "mother-in-law suite" could be fashioned without much expense. Might be a selling point for when the wife passes or downsizes.
I am thinking the building could be done for upwards of $40 large. The restroom adds a $250 fixture, a $130 turbo fan - running cold water and a sewer connection would be the bigger expense - $1-2K? Just ball-parking here. So if the building comes in at $40K and the restroom an additional $2K, what is that, a 5% increase?
Could you make it so that the whole thing slides under the layout when not in use? 
Nice layout. I kinda liked the slip switches tho.
balidas posted:Could you make it so that the whole thing slides under the layout when not in use?
Nice layout. I kinda liked the slip switches tho.
Slide which part under the layout, "Eastwick a la carte"? Perhaps that could be done if I can raise and lower the cart in some way. An idea to think about, not sure at present, thanks. Folding legs? Telescoping legs?
having grown up in a house that featured a 1/2 bathroom in the family room area, I highly recommend DELETE the bathroom from your layout. LOL
Garrett76 posted:having grown up in a house that featured a 1/2 bathroom in the family room area, I highly recommend DELETE the bathroom from your layout. LOL
Garrett, at the risk of "beating a dead horse" ... got your opinion, thanks, but you didn't say why, so you didn't change the balance in my thinking.
I wonder why so much concern about this idea, it seems like a nice convenience to me, not a big deal if its my preference. --Ken
I gotta say, I'm not sure I understand the antagonism toward the PR, especially since it's a separate building. If it's cold, snowing, or raining, it'll be nice to have the facilities in the same building. Having running water will also be a nice convenience. I also think the odor issue is somewhat overblown, if that's such a problem, let's get rid of all bathrooms in the house and just go back to an outhouse in the back yard! That's what I had as a kid, and I can tell you that it was mighty uncomfortable in upstate NY in the winter! Besides Ken, it's your RR, so it's your rules!
I really like the idea that I have a PR in my train room, and it'll be even more appreciated when I have guests and we're all swizzling beers! 
OK, maybe diet coke... 
But hopefully not baked beans ……...
' gunrunnerjohn posted:I gotta say, I'm not sure I understand the antagonism toward the PR, especially since it's a separate building. If it's cold, snowing, or raining, it'll be nice to have the facilities in the same building. Having running water will also be a nice convenience. I also think the odor issue is somewhat overblown, if that's such a problem, let's get rid of all bathrooms in the house and just go back to an outhouse in the back yard! That's what I had as a kid, and I can tell you that it was mighty uncomfortable in upstate NY in the winter! Besides Ken, it's your RR, so it's your rules!
I really like the idea that I have a PR in my train room, and it'll be even more appreciated when I have guests and we're all swizzling beers!
Here, Here, John!! 
I am in total agreement with Ken's idea of putting facilities in his train building! I agree about the over concern about the odor issue. If any of the rest of the 'old guys' here are like me, they can't smell hardly anything any more either!! I have to ask my wife if I or my clothes smell! My dad's place still has the old brick outhouse out back anyway. The story goes, my great-grandfather asked his cousin to build an outhouse that the kids from down the hill in the village couldn't push over the hill every Halloween. His cousin got over cooked bricks from the local brickyard and built the outhouse on a concrete foundation on the hillside. Is still stands and is usable over 100 years later. It always came in handy when working outside. Otherwise you had to come in, take off your work shoes to not get reprimanded from Mum, traipse through the house and upstairs to the only bathroom. Ken's bathroom essentially solves the same problem in the 21'st century! As always, Ken is thinking outside the box, or in this case inside the box, so to speak! 
I’d wire the fan so it comes on automatically with the light and then just keep a supply of Febreze Air Freshener on hand. Most times it’s going to be kids using it unless an operating session with guests runs really long.
If it were up to me......................
I'd simply have a urinal and a sink in the train shed restroom. Nine times out of ten, when I need a restroom, a water-saving and space-saving urinal would do the trick.
For gastronomic needs, simply go to the house. 
Ken, you realize your PR is not ADA-compliant? (Said with tongue firmly planted in cheek). Seriously, is it within the realm of possibility that someone in your locality would consider your trainshed, and it’s uses, to fall under the ADA purview?
I’m not trying to be facetious, but government has rendered some “strange” conclusions regarding compliance.
While private residences are not subject to ADA requirements there can be local/county/state ordinances/laws/codes wrt bathrooms. Sometimes can be ignored by DYI-ing but if hiring work done those folks will have to follow codes.
Lew
Mark Boyce posted:' gunrunnerjohn posted:I gotta say, I'm not sure I understand the antagonism toward the PR, especially since it's a separate building. If it's cold, snowing, or raining, it'll be nice to have the facilities in the same building. Having running water will also be a nice convenience. I also think the odor issue is somewhat overblown, if that's such a problem, let's get rid of all bathrooms in the house and just go back to an outhouse in the back yard! That's what I had as a kid, and I can tell you that it was mighty uncomfortable in upstate NY in the winter! Besides Ken, it's your RR, so it's your rules!
I really like the idea that I have a PR in my train room, and it'll be even more appreciated when I have guests and we're all swizzling beers!
Here, Here, John!!
I'll definitely third that. I see no problem with an indoor loo in the train room. Lots of houses have such facilities and people don't seem too grossed out ....especially since the alternative is an outhouse (illegal pretty much everywhere unless sealed vault).
Lew
Thanks to all who commented and for the 'lively' discussion!
Just to circle back around, I have abandoned my preference for an interior location for the restroom. Why: the layout has expanded inward, both Eastwick and Westham now encroach on the interior operating space, and Bailey yard as well with four yard tracks with a separate East yard lead. And of course the corner location is a more conventional location for a restroom - better for future use of the structure.
Balidas had a good idea: the computer and keyboard are now under the layout at the right, with the keyboard able to pull/slide out from under the layout. The computer monitor hangs on the East wall. Shown is an alternate location for "Eastwick a la carte", when the computer is in use, and for fun to have a second location (might make more mods to this cart in the future).
Paul's idea of just a urinal in the restroom is a possible. I will keep that idea in my "back pocket" if needed, but for now I will stay with the washbasin/commode combo to satisfy my lady visitors (and the wife!).
A re-alignment of the lead to the turntable/engine service added 1/2" to the operating area there. Re-aligning the curves of Bailey Yard with a center-rail spacing of 4.25" saved about 1" of operating area.
I would scrap the mainline connections to Eastwick and Westham in order to preserve the Inglenooks switching operations in those two areas. Also, I'm not sure what the purpose is of the outer-main passing siding hidden under the mountain? Being under the mountain this track cannot be used as a fiddle yard?
I don't know what the codes might be and I don't know about frostline in your location but wrt the bathroom, there are macerator toilets that pump the sewage through a 1" line and can even pump up to iirc 10" head. They were designed for basement bathrooms in structures where the sewer connection is higher than the basement floor. Could be a way to simplify the sewer line to the house.
Lew
Two thoughts:
4.25 C/L may be a good sized regret down the road. That limits loco size for passing long cars.
PR facilities great idea however it would be best outside of the 12 X 2? foot print. In reality a 12' width is a marginal bet with sweeping curves to start with. To cut in a PR brings overall design and significant operating compromise.
Remember, this is your retirement dream. You have worked, saved, spent, planed, then thrown in the great PR idea only recently. Consider a bump out in the design of the room. An ADA bump out. None of us has any guarantee, you may well be the one needing the turn around space. Having spent some time in a chair post surgery I made my last PR ADA compliant.
If the structure was 5' wider you could still have a center entrance with a PR to one side and a utility room to the other side. You will greatly appreciate both provisions.
I vote for a pair of 110 CFM fans, one big stinker could send everyone out into the cold. (it's so easy to spend other peoples money. )
For many of us here that is the elephant in the room. My train-room and her sewing-room are on the second floor. She suffered a ruptured tendon and torn tendon in her foot and has not been able to negotiate the stairs. If/when that sort of issue becomes permanent for either of us we will resort to a stair-elevator. This was part of the plan when we bought this house.
If I were building a dedicated building I would plan for such [possible] eventualities. Of course, I'm not averse to porta-pottys or peeing in a jar if that's what it takes to keep on keeping on.
Lew
geysergazer posted:I would scrap the mainline connections to Eastwick and Westham in order to preserve the Inglenooks switching operations in those two areas. Also, I'm not sure what the purpose is of the outer-main passing siding hidden under the mountain? Being under the mountain this track cannot be used as a fiddle yard?
I don't know what the codes might be and I don't know about frostline in your location but wrt the bathroom, there are macerator toilets that pump the sewage through a 1" line and can even pump up to iirc 10" head. They were designed for basement bathrooms in structures where the sewer connection is higher than the basement floor. Could be a way to simplify the sewer line to the house.
Lew
Lew, I added the mainline connections at Eastwick and Westham thinking a passenger train serving either town doesn't have a passing track to run the engine around to the other end of the consist for a return. Other than that, I agree with you and would prefer to not have these connections. I noticed that they give me a third circle mainline around the layout (O72 min through turnouts) just sharing the bridge, so perhaps a third train could run if I protect the bridge with signals and etc.
Agree, the passing track is an add-on, not sure what it does for the layout plan, perhaps nothing. I might delete this feature, and yes its not a good place to add/remove cars after all. Perhaps I would want to stage a train on this track?
I am OK on the water/sewer connections, they are close by and easy to tap into from that corner. Sewer drop is OK. Thanks on that.
Tom, the minimum curvature is O108 for the yard tracks at that 4.25" center spacing. I am thinking that would do, but have no experience with very large scale equipment. If a problem in the future, there is room to pull the yard out with wider curves at about O120 if needed. I don't suppose there would be much need for a Big Boy or Challenger to be positioned down these tracks? Thanks.
Sometimes we see a locomotive "ready track" (not sure what correct name would be) at engine service facilities for locomotives serviced for an outbound train, ready for the call:
Made a few minor changes:
Bailey Yard spur lengths are 90", 111", 128", and 141"
Hi Ken,
My take away from your very first post was that the structure was pre-fabricated and looked like the picture you posted but your recent post states in part "building costs of ~ $40k".
Have you received any estimates yet? I ask as that estimate seems a little high based on pricing where I live (outside of Philadelphia, Pa) and you may be able to afford an alcove which extends to one side where you can put in a bathroom and a small kitchen area (say refrigerator, sink, microwave, etc). Many of the local shed-builders in my area will customize their existing designs (including adding insulation, electric and plumbing).
I'm going off the pricing a friend of mine received on a "she-shed" he had built for his wife.
You have, however, not mentioned two critical design elements - installing cup holders and remote holders along the facia of the layout.
-Greg
Greg Houser posted:My take away from your very first post was that the structure was pre-fabricated and looked like the picture you posted but your recent post states in part "building costs of ~ $40k".Have you received any estimates yet? I ask as that estimate seems a little high based on pricing where I live (outside of Philadelphia, Pa) and you may be able to afford an alcove which extends to one side where you can put in a bathroom and a small kitchen area (say refrigerator, sink, microwave, etc). Many of the local shed-builders in my area will customize their existing designs (including adding insulation, electric and plumbing).
I think if you consider heating, cooling, and plumbing, the 40K starts to sound much more reasonable.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Greg Houser posted:My take away from your very first post was that the structure was pre-fabricated and looked like the picture you posted but your recent post states in part "building costs of ~ $40k".Have you received any estimates yet? I ask as that estimate seems a little high based on pricing where I live (outside of Philadelphia, Pa) and you may be able to afford an alcove which extends to one side where you can put in a bathroom and a small kitchen area (say refrigerator, sink, microwave, etc). Many of the local shed-builders in my area will customize their existing designs (including adding insulation, electric and plumbing).
I think if you consider heating, cooling, and plumbing, the 40K starts to sound much more reasonable.
I should have been clearer - the 'she-shed' he had built included those elements and was 10x20.
I'm no expert on "she-shed's" and assumed they all came with that.....being ladies and all and we all know they always want to "accessorize" for maximum comfort...lol
It's funny - my wife was teasing me if we didn't have to figure out how to pay for college for our son she'd be bugging me to get one built for her. Apparently in her mind my getting our "cold, dark, damp" unfinished basement for my layout equals her getting a "she-shed" for her use.
-Greg
I lieu of the connections at Eastwick and Westham, you could put another crossover between the mains on the "viewing" side of the layout to accomplish your runaround for passenger trains. perhaps right in front of the Westham area is enough straight section clear of the bridge to do this.
As for the siding under the mountain, it looks too short to be of much use. If it is not long enough for most of your trains, I would eliminate it or lengthen it.
You could also do either of these:
First - remove the switches which connect the sidings with the main by the viewing area:
My thinking is that you are just fouling the main on the other side of your layout and by not having the sidings connect increases the switching interest as any runaround moves need to be done in the yard.
Second, if you do want the sidings to connect for a third loop or branch line, you could make the curves tighter coming into Eastwick, bump the city closer to Bailey yard and connect the sidings off the one running past the Morton Salt branch. This will require a 3rd lift out brigde/section. Tighter curves on sidings/branch lines are prototypical too.
Regarding the passing siding under the mountain - it is too short for most trains it seems you will be running but I would keep it. You could always use it for a short freight or stage cars there. It would even make for a nice MOW scene as well.
-Greg
Greg, I also saw that possibility, but feel reluctant about it. Here is why:
Greg, thanks for the discussion. Further thoughts?
One possible configuration related to the discussion above, seven spurs and one more industry (warehouse). I guess this is satisfactory to me, all constraints considered, gonna think about it some more. Thoughts?
I see that Eastwick becomes more interesting to service, with spurs in both directions. The crew has to use the bridge as a switch lead for this opposed direction spur.
Perhaps the station and new spur in the NorthEast deserves a town name: dunno - Bywater, then decorate the edge of the access area as a lake shore?
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