20 Drops of Smoke Fluid -- PART 2 Added 4/3/15

Looks like adding more and more smoke fluid is helping smoke output. Just curious.......Has anyone that has added more than Lionels recommendations looked at the bottom of their locomotive to see if smoke fluid is dripping off of it? Maybe that's not an issue. But if it is dripping or wet on the bottom, I'm guessing that the insides have to be soaked. I thought that Lionel didn't want to see these being returned with soaked electronics(at least for the VL Bigboy) Thinking I seen that on Lionels(Mike Reagon) Big boy video.

I think the key is to add fluid gradually and slowly and test the smoke output  multiple times as you add more fluid. when you have good smoke output, run it till the smoke reduces a little then add more....I think a little common sense and understanding of how the smoke unit works is key in success and in avoiding over filling that Lionel is worried about...

Just looked at that video again and the smoke fluid discussion starts about 23 minutes in.

M.R. does say at one stage not to add more than 22 drops to each of the four smoke units at any one time because the fluid can get into the fan motor and also on the electronics. I think that the emphasis should be on the motor because getting coated with smoke fluid will affect its lubrication/rotation; smoke fluid is not conductive so it won't short the electronics but it is messy once it coats a board surface or wiring. 

Problem is that it's quite clear from LOS's video that 20 drops won't saturate the pre-cut batting used. From my own experience the problem is most evident with blowdown and steam dynamo features because trying to fill them properly without opening the smoke unit itself is problematic; all the fluid doesn't necessarily reach the batting.

One other thing is that a great deal depends on how much you run an engine and take it on and off the track. An engine run continuously for long sessions is going to use a lot more fluid than one that just gets run, say, for 10 minutes at a time. Also if you transfer engines between the track and a display I find that it takes some care to avoid turning them over, which will spill some fluid out.

Nonetheless I have only seen smoke fluid overflow (coming out through the bottom) on Lionel diesels.

As noted above, none of this is rocket science and once you know the essentials about how a particular smoke unit is supposed to work a little common sense should avoid problems.

Great video! Thanks for posting!!! My M1a smokes so much better than it used to!!!

3751...

As I think back to all of my Lionel steamers, all have developed a burning scent from their smoke units after only a few hours run time, despite them still putting out smoke, and despite adding it per instructions. I am not an expert, but I am guessing once a wick is burned it will never adsorb smoke fluid again. Thus, it begins its death spiral, with less and less wick available as time goes on.

To me, this issue goes beyond getting optimal performance from Lionel smoke units, more importantly, its about maintaining the smoke unit wicking for longevity. If adding more fluid accomplishes this then it should news. I appreciate the OP's original tip. I didn't mean to create consternation about bringing Lionel in on this.

Paul that is true to a point. The more the wick is burnt, the more it effects smoke output in a negative way. In a few of my TMCC engines that I rebuilt, a couple were 10 years old, the smoke units were not working at all. The fan worked, but no heat. Yes the batting had been burnt pretty bad, and there was hardly any left that would actually absorb the smoke fluid.

What caused these particular engines to completely stop smoking, was the resistor had burnt out. With badly burnt wicks, and extreme heat, just burnt right through the resistor to the point where it was solid black and the winding was broke.

The majority of that was lack of knowledge on my part, and not paying attention to whether the smoke unit was on, and how much fluid was in it, if any at all. So that's why I began doing some homework on these smoke units as I started rebuilding the older ones. Then with my new engines, I wanted the huge volume of smoke output that others were getting, but couldn't figure out why I was unable to. 

Now that I have rebuilt several, and looked inside my news engines, I have a MUCH BETTER understanding of how they work, why they put out more and less smoke, and how to keep them running at peak performance. My intention was to show people what I learned, because I was frustrated with smoke unit performance, and I know there are many others out there with the same frustrations. 

Not everyone wants to, or can open their engine up to take a look and tinker with stuff. I'm not one of those guys, and these engines really are NOT that hard to work on. For people who can't, they send them to The Smoke King.... Alex Malliae  

Well I got the Lionel Premium Smoke Fluid so here's the follow up, with new batting, and smoke fluid.

More boring information to most, and I'm not telling you to do a thing to your engine

Doug great video. Thanks.

Any idea (estimate) on how many drops the bottle holds? Looks like we need it by the gallon.

Thanks Doug !!

Clem k

For us guys who are all thumbs taking these steamers apart, do you have to take the units apart and saturate the wicking and then reassemble, or can you continue to add fluid into the stack (not sure if that will cause leaking onto electronics, etc), like 20 drops, let sit for a few hours, then 20 more, etc?

nice update.

what I do when I want or need to use the needle dropper is take the regular dropper and put the drops into the needle dropper. this way I know how much liquid is in the needle dropper and just empty the needle dropper.  also you can make a line on the bottle and not have to count drops.

Absolutely Paul, no need to take it apart for saturation. Dont need to wait hours between drops. When I did the refill after 25 minutes of run time, I turned the smoke unit off for a lap, and then added 25 drops, waited about 10 seconds or so, and added another 25 drops. Turned it back on to high, with max EFX, and smoke volume was right back to where it was when I started at 120.

Great smoke Marty, I have the latest release of the 3751 from Lionel also a great smoker at first put after 20 or so minutes of running it is time for a refill which I do not mind. 

 A side track on the smoke post.

 I am not so happy with its sound however, the volume is very anemic.  I first tried the sound pot without much luck making it louder at all.  I had no luck with that or using legacy control to boast it up.

Excellent second video, LaidOffSick, which confirms a lot of what my own personal experience is with both Lionel Premium Fluid and Megasteam at full saturation.

You have carefully documented everything, and people and see and judge for themselves.

I always "re-wet" the batting before operating any locomotive before using it, but now I may use more that I used to.  I think also it helps to let it drip in drop by drop like you did, so to maximize absorption into the wicking and reduce flooding if given too much all at once.  The wicking can hold a lot of fluid if applied slowly like in your video evaporation happens quicker than we all think.

The Lionel rope type batting really absorbs the fluid fast, but the pre-cut squares takes a little time to absorb all that fluid. So I take a little more time filling an engine that I haven't replaced the factory batting with the rope style.

I'm definitely no expert, but I learned a lot experimenting with these smoke units.

My wife does NOT care for the smell of the Lionel fluid at all, and the more the room fills with smoke, the more she dislikes it  So, I will still use the Mega Steam as well, but when it's time to put out some smoke signals.... here comes the LPSF.

I know it will depend on many factors, especially the locomotive itself, and the type or brand of smoke fluid, but as a Rule of Thumb, and given a specific locomotive . . .

Approximately how long (minutes of running) would you say that 20 drops of Mega Steam would last on the VL Big Boy (that is, 20 drops per smoke stack)?

Thx!

Alex

It wouldn't hurt to change the wick in my Postwar 2056 engine.  I remember I modified it to smoke a lot more decades ago.  And now, with the Megasteam fluid, it does smoke a good amount.

However, with all this talk of different wick materials:  

* With the pre-cut, round wick pads: Is one better than the other for holding fluid/producing smoke?

* Would it be better to use something like the replacement Lionel stranded wick for the new locomotives? 

Hi Doug,

Another well done video, with excellent information. To me it looks like the Lionel Premium smoke fluid puts out the most smoke.

Thank you for taking the time to do this,

Alex

I'll talk to Mike Reagan, maybe they can put a nice scent into there fluid

Alex

I see that Lionel Preminum smoke is manufactured in China... I hope that it is safe to use and that they didn't take any shortcuts by putting out a product that does not meet USA safety guidelines, as Lumber Liquidators is accused of.

Steve

LOS,

Thanks a million for your videos!!

Your video has lifted the mystery of how the units work and made the following points:

I now know that I have been starving my smoke units because from time to time I smell a tinge of hot plastic from the batting at which time I shut down and refill.  I think that is too late.

I have been too conservative in adding fluid.  I have been using the Megasteam needle to add the recommended Lionel drops but those drops are only a fraction of what is needed.

Letting a locomotive sit for some days (which I do), you then have to refill to get the batting saturated again - maybe multiple doses over time to get the batting saturated.

There is a difference between Megasteam and Lionel fluids - I think Lionel fluids will saturate faster than Megasteam BUT I will let that influence my use doses of Megasteam and will still use it.

Your test of droppers confirmed that the size of the drops is important when you begin counting drops. 

The replacement Lionel rope batting looks like it is better than the pre-cut stuff.

The screw driver magnetizer is a necessary tool.

Lastly, when warranties expire, I know that I can find videos on this website to help me get to the smoke units and replace the batting - I am no stranger to hand tools.

Wow. Look out Eric Seigal, you've got a rival! Seriously, this second video is a great tutorial on modern Lionel smoke units and I don't say that just because it confirms what I thought to be the case.

So thanks a lot LOS for something truly helpful to those of us who want to understand how these things work.

One question: I think that your engine is the one that Alex M. opened up and found that the whistle impeller was partly melted on one side. Did you replace that part? I was puzzled about why it had melted but it seems that the explanation is probably that the wicking was too dry to dissipate the heat from the resistor. That might account for why your whistle smoke resistor was blackened. On these Legacy twin chamber smoke units that may well be another reason to saturate them (both chambers) before use.

Eric and I are not rivals, we are doing the same thing... sharing information. Besides, he much better at it, and I watch all his reviews. He makes we want to buy stuff I don't even like. I've watched all his videos from day 1. Thats where my Dad and I learned to do tunnel liners and foam rock molds  That 2 part foam stuff is a process.

I also try not to do videos that people have already done. That's why I have so many Kadee coupler videos, because a lot of people want to do it, but there's not much info out there on how to do it.

I did NOT replace the fan blade in my CF, but as you can see in the video, that resistor gets super hot. They will all burn if they are dry, especially when sitting in neutral with the smoke unit on.

Great video DOUG!!!  Thank you!

Sorry for a bit more "offtracking" of this thread but when these were released someone discovered the speaker enclosure was loose in the tender on one of these. I can't remember if it was Lee or Scrapiron, but reinstalling the chamber greatly improved the sound.

Another excellent video!  Thank you.

Interesting that I agree with others experiences comparing Lionel Premium Fluid with Megasteam.  As I have stated before, I use both, but in my observations in several Lionel engines from post war to modern, the Lionel Premium Fluid seems to produce more smoke that Megasteam.

Here is my experience with both.

Lionel Premium Smoke Fluid

Pros:  Most smoke from locomotives like The Polar Express (puffer), Post war locomotives, and Legacy locomotives.

Cons:  Smoke tends to linger longer in the air and family members and guests are not fond of its smell.  Some even find it irritating.  It also seems to evaporate quicker than JT Megasteam even in a closed bottle.

JT Megasteam

Pros:  Second only to Lionel Premium Smoke Fluid in smoke volume.  Comes in scents my family likes like vanilla, hot chocolate, nada, cinnamon, and others etc which means less complaints from family members and guests.  Also dissipates very well.

Cons:  Not any other than less smoke output. 

I keep buying both products probably running more with Megasteam 2:1 since that is the most tolerable to most people.

You may want to try our"SMOKE CLOUD" smoke fluid. The name says it all.

Dave, LBR

Jeff and LOS,

BUT here is the conundrum:

Is it a bad smoke unit or burnt batting from starvation??

I have a new Berkshire Pere Marquette and new Lionchief+ B&O and both were sent back to Lionel for failing smoke units.

On the Berk, Lionel indicated that I had flooded the unit.

On the B&O, Lionel indicated that it was a defective unit.

Surprisingly, my Big Boy and Polar Express Berk Jr. are OK.

This is the **** if you do and ****ed if you don't department.

Under these situations, I think you are better off being able to take apart your loco and service it yourself.

Until the engineering of the units is better, this is Lionel.