20 Drops of Smoke Fluid -- PART 2 Added 4/3/15

Great video. I swapped out the batting on my Lionmaster legacy challenger and the difference was as you describe.

 

Need to do the others now but can't find the batting number on Lionel's site - I must be thick! Anyone got the part number - -thanks.

 

MIKE

That was a great video.  Thank you.  I have never changed out the wick material in a Lionel product.  I take it that replacement wick material is a different density/material?

Lionel smoke unit batting 8" -- 691SMKP008

 

That part # is completely different material than the pre-cut stuff.

 

All my TMCC engines smoke just as much as the new engines now.

This is a fantastic video and I have found the exact same thing.  I think most people do not get the wicks saturated and that's why so many smoke issues.   I took apart my GM train of tomorrow (3rd Rail) because of low smoke output even after I had added 30 drops and when I checked the wick it was bone dry.  I saturated the wick and it smoked like crazy.  

The problem is we don't know the size of the wicks or units unless we open them up.  But once I do then I know what it takes for each engine.

 

But I believe this is probably most of the issues with low or no smoke output.

 

Thanks for making that video.

Absolutely right Sean.... the wick needs to be saturated, and if it's not, then the batting burns. The more it burns, the more the smoke output is reduced.

Thanks LOS...it looked like it but I wasn't sure.  It goes to show just how much that stuff will suck up....wow.  I'm impressed by your results with the new material.

Very interesting. When you first said how many drops you were putting in I figured you would need a beach towel to mop it off the engine! I have noticed the same with my Legacy engines the fluid doesn't seem to last that long and I don't have that long of a stretch to run.  My MTH engines with the same 20 to 25 drops seem to go much further on a fill up. The Lionel instructions tell you 15 to 2o drops!    Thanks for the video;very informative.

I've never been stingy or shy with the smoke fluid. I usually just out a whole eye dropper full in the unit

Are all drops created equal?

Is all smoke fluid equal as to concentration and vaporization rate?

Of course not Chuck... drops depend on the size of the applicator. I used the Mega Steam bottle because that's what most of us use.

 

I don't know, that's why I want to try the Lionel Premium Fluid that Lionel wants us to use in their engines. I will find out soon. 1st I gotta find some of that fluid.

 

Matt I was using the whole eye dropper too, but that didn't last long either. It's about 30-40 drops.

Great video and very informative.  MARTY FITZHENRY had done the same thing with the 8 inch wick.  That is all he uses now.

Not to hi jack the thread but here is the one with MARTY F, reply.

 

https://ogrforum.com/topic/smoke-unit-wicks-1

The whole 8 inch wick will fit into the smoke unit !! - Almost seems that there would be no air flow . 

When I rebuilt my PE smoke unit, I used the Lionel Premium Fluid.  I also counted the drops to full saturation based on the wick I used at the time.  I was surprised how many drops it took.  It was over 20 for sure. (It's been awhile now so I forget the exact number).

 

The Lionel Premium Fluid produced a lot more smoke that the Mega steam in that locomotive.  It also hangs in the air more (not really a good thing unless you want to fog up a room). 

 

On the down side, my family doesn't like the smell of it and are completely spoiled by the scents of Megasteam.  Over time, I have replenished the fluid back to Megasteam to make everyone happy.  Smoke output is less, but so are the complaints.  By less, I mean still very good, but the Lionel Premium fluid made more.

 

I'm very interested in your experiment to see if you have similar results.

Thanks for a good informational video - had never seen one like that before.

 

Well that's the thing, I can't remember what Mike R recommended for the dropper. But in later videos, he said to fill the dropper that comes with the new engines to 3/4 of the way up to the first line. That is about a third of an ml. So I just use that volume of Lionel Premium smoke fluid.

Very informative video.

Great presentation!  I'm looking forward to the next installment.

Thank you for the USEFUL post.They have been scarce latley in this section.Great video.That is the material I use,HUGE difference.Nick

Very informative video.

Doug,
Can always count on you to provide a relevant topic with an excellent "how to" video. Great job.

You and Alex have both shown that these Legacy locomotives need saturated wicks. I'm a believer. I did the same with a VL Challenger recently-kept adding fluid and was sure I screwed it up.  After several fills it smokes great. Now I realize I must have finally saturated the wick.

One other thing-the smoke fluid has to work down all the "tubes" and bends to get to the wick in the loco. That compounds the problem and less fluid gets to the wick than we think...

Again, great stuff!

Great video and I also look forward to the Lionel Premium Fluid test as I have wondered about its comparative performance for a long time. The first Lionel engine I tried it in it was a dud compared to MTH or Megasteam.

 

Aside from that, three points:

 

1.  I also decided that with some engines there's no option but to soak the batting by taking the shell off and disassembling the smoke unit. This is not an option for everybody and every engine - for example the VL Big Boy (where everything seems to work as advertised except the blowdown smoke but fixing it seems to require disassembly that would be challenging to put it mildly).

 

2.  From my experience however - and this may account for Lionel's advice on 20 drops - over time saturating the batting will lead to smoke fluid getting in the fan motor and then you get the annoying mosquito whine. That can be remedied but again you have to perform surgery by taking the shell off and the smoke unit apart.

 

3.  Smoke unit performance is also a matter of track voltage and labor/EFX setting, or so I have found with all my recent Legacy engines. If you want more smoke, good power to the track and upping the labor setting help.

 

On to your next instalment soon I hope.

Thanks for sharing, good information. 

If you like to smoke 'em then you have to service them. All the new Legacy engines just seem to eat the smoke up. 

I like the smoke affects and have no problem taking them apart, cannot tell you how many engines I have purchased that will not smoke and that is the first thing I check and 99 percent of them have burnt wicks.

 

I have one smoke unit on my Lionel 1601 1999 Allegheny release that smokes terrific for 2 laps then stops.

Open it up and I realize the unit had become so hot that it melted the solder joints on the boards... re-solder and I good to go for a few more hours...

 

Just the nature of the beast...

 

 

Hi Doug,

 

Very informative video as always, as we talked about on the phone a few nights ago I'm very interested in seeing the test with the Lionel Premium smoke fluid.

 

Thanks,

Alex

Doug: 

 

Thank you for this video. I'm new to Legacy, and found this extemely helpful. Look forward to your next installment.

Well I ordered some Lionel Premium Smoke fluid, from Amazon of all places, but it comes directly from Lionel. It's free shipping but NOT a PRIME item, so I should get it in a week or so. Then I'll take the engine apart again, and start from scratch.

what about us who do not have the skill to take apart a large steam engine?

 

I add smoke fluid every lap and I'm OK with that.  makes me pay attention to the train.

 

 

thanks for the info.

Well.... ummm. Keep adding 20-30 drops every lap if the smoke has reduced to a minimum. You do that enough times and eventually that wick will become soaked. The problem is, if it's not soaked, and you run with max smoke effects, the wick will get burnt and reduce the volume of smoke anyway.

Thank you for this video!!!

Do MTH and Lionel use the same design in their smoke units?

Reason I ask, all my MTH engines smoke great with 20 drops which is what they say to use.

But, all of my Lionel's have wimpy smoke or intermittent smoke, air bubbles etc.

 

 

 

I am guessing someone from Lionel will read this thread. I would love to hear what Lionels opinion of this would be. Please comment Lionel.

I run the smoke until it is a haze. I SHUT DOWN the smoke unit for a minute add smoke then start it up again.

 

               


What their opinion is about what?

That what I showed you isn't true?

What is the proper amount of smoke fluid?

What to use to fill the smoke chamber?

When to add more fluid?

What type of wick to use?

Should you take your engine apart yourself?

Opinions are just that, everyone has their own. As you have read above, and other threads in this forum, many people swap the smoke batting out, many people prefer the 8" white batting over the precut stuff, and many of us use Mega Steam.

Go to Lionel's YouTube channel.... there is plenty of information on there directly from Lionel.

Great video.  I am obviously not using enough fluid.  I have to ask this.  If Lionel sells a replacement product (the wick) that is so much better than the original than why isn't it used in the new engine?   

Chris

That is a very good question Chris. I wonder the same thing. Although it is a lot QUICKER for assembly to take a pre-cut piece and drop it in the bowl. It might take a minute to spread out the white batting, ball it up, stuff it in there, and make sure the airways are not blocked for the fan ports.

So should I add 80 to 100 drops of fluid?

 

Very informative. Thanks!  

Glad someone explained it in step by step fashion. There is a lot of misinformation out there concerning liquid smoke units. Curious to hear Lionel's response.

 

It could be a simple case of switch to reduce cost. The factory in China may have these pre cut wicks made and delivered by a different vendor than the 8" Lionel sells.  OR it could be that the same vendor makes two kinds of wicks.

 

This "switch to reduce cost" has happened to our company many times without our knowledge and it cost us $$$ and loss of customers due to component failure in the field. It took me and a colleague of mine about 6 months to figure out the "strange field failures" till we traced it down to two resistors spec'd (USA) at 5% and the factory(China) replaced it with a !0% ...

 

Just guessing

 

 

I just had to try this in two of my steamers.

 

First engine was my Lionmaster Cab Forward with TMCC, what a difference. I didn't bother to count the drops, but used a good half a dropper full.

 

Second was my WM TMCC Shay same great results.

 

I am going to try one of my Legacy steamers in  the morning and also a couple of my Legacy diesels.  I expect the same results.

 

Thank you for posting this.

 

By the way I have made Mike R. 's smoke unit upgrade to several of my TMCC diesels and a K-line Steamer. All great results.