2353T Santa Fe F3 AA: How do you tell between the powered vs. dummy

If the eBay  seller stated in the description it was dummy it is on you.

If seller never mentioned the engine was a dummy you probably can return it and get your money back.  Most sellers will on eBay will satisfy you to keep from getting negative feedback.

Many diesels on eBay are remiss in not mentoring it is a dummy.

Charlie

Originally, Lionel sold the F-3's in AA combos, with the horn in the powered A-unit.

In 1953, Lionel moved the horns into the dummy A-unit, and did this with the 2353 Santa Fe, 2354 New York Central, and 2356 Southern. Lionel did this because the original horizontal motors made a lot of vibration, and they thought moving the horn into the dummy unit would improve the sound. The only one that didn't have this was the 2245 MKT/Texas Special, because it only had one motor.

For these F-3's, the powered A-unit has no battery cover, but it does have the reverse unit lever sticking out from under the fuel tank, and the dummy A-unit has the battery cover for the horn.

Lionel would move the horns back into the powered A-unit in all the vertically motored F-3's starting in 1955.

So, since the dummy unit I have doesn't have a horn/battery cover, should I be searching for a powered unit from '55 or later?  Even then, is there anything else I can be looking for in the pics to ensure the seller is really describing a powered unit (that includes the horn)? 

BTW, I bought the dummy unit on a local online auction (not eBay) with no return policy.

I am on my cellphone so I do not know how to send a link. I Googled Lionel 2353t and scrolled through a few items and came accross an old auction that was selling a set that consisted of a 2353p and a 2353t. The t was the dummy and the p was the powered unit. Hope this helps.

Brad

Thanks, I think you helped solve the mystery.  For the units being sold with the box, you are correct, and when I look at the pics of the undersides of these units I see that the rear trucks are different than the dummy rear trucks.  So this helps me better recognize those units being sold without a box.  Now I simply need to find a nice powered unit with the horn, that I can afford

What hasn't been mentioned is that any horizontal motor F3 that has the horn in the powered unit is a 2343 or a 2333 not a 2353.

If you have a dummy unit with no battery compartment and no horn, it is not a 2353T but a 2343T or 2333T. It should not have 2353 number boards. If it does, the chassis and shell are mismatched.

There are a number of body differences in a 2343 or 2333 vs a 2353. These include different roof vents, etc., etc.

Some pictures of what you bought would be helpful in determining exactly what it is and what you need to complete your A-A combo.

Note that as the years went by from the 2353 era, the F3 Santa Fe diesels changed radically and none of these would match a 2353 shell.

Jim

Hey Jim, 

After getting them out again I realized I started the post with the wrong engine numbers.  It is a 2343T (the box matches the number boards on the loco).  Here are some pics of the non-powered unit.

That's a nice unit. It's definitely worth hunting for a suitable "mate"!

What you need to find is a powered 2343 A unit. All 2343 powered units should have the horn, although most people don't guarantee the horn operation. It has a reputation for being very finicky.

It will have 2 horizontal motors, a reverse unit lever sticking out the bottom of the fuel tank, and the battery compartment cover on the bottom.

If there isn't a photo of the open battery compartment, be suspicious of possible damage from leaking batteries. Be sure to ask the seller about this.

It will probably be described as just 2343. Most people don't add the P designation to their descriptions, but the reverse unit lever should be visible from at least one photo angle to differentiate it from the dummy unit.

If you find one with the box, it will be a brown corrugated cardboard box with a corrugated insert. It is labeled 2343P. The powered unit did not have an orange and blue box.

There was also a master carton that could hold both the powered and dummy units in their boxes.

The 2343P is really the only unit that will match yours.

The 2333P comes close but does not have magnetraction and has slightly different style lettering.

The 2353P would not have a horn, would be missing the front grab bars, and would have different style roof vents.

Later years would have even more differences in the body shell such as fewer ladder details, filled in portholes, and blackened truck side frames among others.

Happy hunting!!!

Jim

Any suggestions on what to do with the missing porthole windows?  I see some on eBay but they are clear and new and will look different than the original one that still remains.  Should I simply replace the missing ones and leave the original, replace them all with new ones, or somehow try to 'age' the new ones to look like the original?

You may want to wait until you find the powered unit. It will probably need replacements too. Then you can order replacements for all at the same time. Some replacements look a little different from others, so it is best to order all from the same source at the same time.