3rd Rail E7 Drive Train Failure

I still think the vertical drive motors are better as it is a direct drive from the motor shaft to the drive gear in the truck.  I also see that 3rd rail is not using pittman motors in this engine.  A cut in cost most likely but not made in America either.

Bob, I would be leery that the replacement would not be any better that the original unless these turn out to be a common problem and Scott has found a 2nd source.

You can find better replacements at Stock Drive Parts which is where I found one for my Lionel Niagara which has similar issues.

Pete

I have experienced this on Lionel engines. My EM1 had the same failure mode.

The Plastic u-joints tend to fracture easily over time to do moisture absorption. You could use a brass universal from an RC car to fix.

I believe those motors (FN38) are considered to be premium-type motors as I've seen them mentioned elsewhere.

Pete, I'll take a look at the SDP website, thanks!

J Daddy, I too was thinking RC car parts and will go to the local RC shop soon.

From the looks of the inside of the plastic yoke, it appears that it may have been gouged during assembly, leaving a "trough" of sorts in the plastic.  Or it could have happened when the universal came apart, just don't know.  I know I had a hard time getting it back in as the clearance/tolerance is tight.

I was even thinking of using rubber tubing for this one universal, like I've seen others use on older engines.  Not sure how the parts are mated to the motor shaft, probably a press fit.

You would prefer a Pittman motor to a Canon? No thanks.

In my opinion a Canon motor is far superior to any Pittman motor.

Bob,

I looked at my E-7 and although I haven't had a problem with it yet, it appears on one of the universals, one of the "tabs" as you call it on the "cross" is short. It doesn't project very far into the hole in the corresponding yoke. Looks like either a poor design or sloppy manufacturing of the cross. After enough running the hole might enlarge enough for the tab to slip out. How much run time do you have on your engine?

If you can't get a replacement from Scott, a Lionel universal like that which is used between the front and rear engines on an articulated engine might work depending on the diameter of the motor shaft. Also Northwest Shortline sells some good universal joints. I've used their universals in HO and I would imagine they would have ones suitable for O gauge.

I have also had problems with the pickups coming loose and rotating. It's a poor design and a PITA to fix.

Ken

How many motors in each unit at $100 a pop?  The Pittmans can be had for $25 each - less, if you order in quantity (opinion - last one I bought at that price was several years ago).  No wonder plastic models cost so much these days.  I do have Canon motors, but get excellent service out of Charlie Pittman's products.  You do know he was an O Scaler?

What you are describing sounds like a material flaw.  Get a new U joint and live happily ever after.  Use a piece of hose while you wait for shipment.

I just can't resist adding my 2 cents.  Some Canon motors are very good some are junk.  The same can be said for Pittman.  To say all Canons are better is just silly.  I remember a guy that bought 50 Canon motors (a case) that ran great for about 30 seconds.  They had soft plastic brush holders and once the motor warmed up it would run like crap (surging).

Jay

I do believe the universals in the FL9s and FP7s are metal rather than plastic.  Whatever the status of making those available as replacements in this case I do not know.

I do not agree on the cannons as they are 5 slot and not skewed armatures and the pitmans are 7 slot non coging with scewed armatures and run super smooth.  All my third rail steamers have pittmans and are super smooth.  The cannons I have in my ho brass  are only 5 slot and not skewed armatures, cog some and will not run super smooth on filtered dc.  The one coreless motor I have in an ho engine is the best running at slow  speed of any motor I have and it is a cannon but very expensive. Also my cannons can not handle the heat of pulsed spiked power for super slow operation.  I used to use troller power supply in ho and with 24 volt spiked voltage the only motor that could handle that over a period of time at very slow speed was a athearn which had thicker wire in the armature.

I will admit the cheap motors that lionel and mth use in their diesels are crap and can be picked up at army surplus for less than a dollar each. The cannons are way superior to that and due to motor speed technology run quite well.

They may be cheap crap, but we get decades of daily operation out of MTH Diesels.  Some have had as many as five axle gear changes, and a few have had worm replacements, axle bearing, and even axle replacements, and so far not one motor has failed.  Not one!

And I am a big Pittman fan - they are the only motor I purchase new.

Instead of conjecture, here are some facts.

We have 1500 E7s out there, and we have had maybe 10-15 U-Joint Failure, replacements so far. I had questioned the factory initially on using plastic u-joints, but the large size and thick material seems to be what keeps them running. One should put a little grease on this part so it doesn't wear out over time. I know they did some grinding on parts to make them fit. A little disappointing that the design wasn't better, but this was before we implimented our I3D Design process. The FL9, FP7, FT and all future projects will use this method of 3D Design for every part and screw used in production.

I do have stock of extra parts, enough for eons.

Our future productions, FL9, FP7, FT use metal u-joints. These should last much longer. And again, we have enough replacement u-joints instock for any situation.

Why did I choose the Canon Motor over Pittman for our Diesels?

First and foremost, Canon specially designed this motor for our power / speed and torque requirements. Canon engineers were interested in our business and were active in the design process. Ametek (Acquired Pittman in 2010) was not as accessible. In years past, when we had a problem with a Pittman application, it was our problem if it didn't work. They argued with me instead of offering a solution. I don't forget stuff like that. So anything new, I look to Canon. We had good experiences with our HO motor design and qualifications, so I brought them our O scale diesel business.

Second was size, the Canon motor was a little smaller, so it would fit easier in the F series diesels we were planning. I wanted to use the same motor in all diesels. The cost is 1/2 of a Pittman, but has sufficient torque and smoothness in running for this application (5 Pole Scewed Armature). Steam engines require more torque than diesels, just look at the size of the wheels. Smaller Diameter wheels, lower torque requirements, higher speeds.

We haven't had any Canon motor failures in the 5000 + diesels we have produced so far. I am very happy with our decision so far.

Consequently, the others use the "China Drive" style gearing (direct worm to diecast gear box, gear, then powered metal gears from wheel to wheel behind the side frame, which are sometimes visible, with Mabuchi 385-PH (38 mm diameter), 3 Pole motors, that cost about $1.50 each in bulk. The Canon motors we use cost a lot more. Pittman, even more.  If you are getting Pittman motors on line for $25 they are less than what they cost me in Bulk. That sheds light on the next reason.

The third reason I chose not use Pittman in our diesels is that they keep raising their prices, while Canon has remained steady over the last 10 years. Pittman motors was bought out by AMETEK and they are no longer interested in the low volume (500 Units) orders, and have doubled their prices over the last 6 years.

That's the business of motors as I see it.

All my best.

Scott Mann

Well, I don't think the type of motor had anything to do with the failure of the universal joint.  Furthermore, I suspect most issues with motors can be solved with proper gearing.  After all these years on this forum, I can't think of one time where someone provided proof that a motor failed as a result of design.

Thanks Scott (don't know why this got off onto comments about the motor )

I'll call next week and order another universal.

Just as a general (non-loco specific, really) FYI per split/spreading U-joints:

My Lionel Niagara split its u-joint (big surprise) a few years ago, and I happened to have

brass tubing on hand that -precisely- fit over the split part. Seems to have solved it.

Could also be used as a preventative the next time you have loco X open.

Of course, it's the Lionel Niagara - that beautiful Cursed Locomotive - so, no promises.  

AMETEK is a huge conglomerate who buys/bought up a lot of smaller companies that do/did well in their niche markets. They were the manufacturer of analog engine gauges back in the 1980's for Cessna Citations and other light business jets, but moved onto bigger and better things. I don't think they did anything for Pittman except maybe make them harder to buy from the sounds of it.

Butch 

Hmm...I ordered 100 special motors from Pittman/ Ametek a few years back and it was painless. Since I do custom DCS installs I needed motors with extended armature shafts for mounting flywheels. Also changed from the stock 24 volt type to a 18 volt version. Ontop of all that we went with ball bearings instead of bronze bushings. did all corresponding with Pittman/ Ametek via emails and it went very smooth. My motors have their own Pittman part number. Placed the order and received the motors in a few weeks. 

My dad spent 29 years in supervision with US Gauge (an Ametek division for years and years) and it was fine company, with great products and dedication to American manufacturing. For Pittman to join them is probably not such a bad thing. Incidentally, both Pittman and US Gauge were headquartered in Sellersville, PA, a small town located near the top of Bucks County, PA (one of the five Philadelphian suburbs).

Tonight I was running my 3rd Rail / GGD 1948 20th Century Limited (3rd Rail NYC EMD E7's) and experienced nearly the same failure as described by the OP. Mine was a little worse, one of the joints in the lead unit fractured to bits completely. Luckily the event occurred right in front of me and I hit the kill button within a second. I have another business trip coming up, but I too will be needing some replacements soon. Glad to read Scott has plenty to go around.

Nick,

I haven't done anything about getting replacement parts yet due to my wife passing away May 3.  Just can't seem to find the time or get interested yet.

I hope you get yours going soon though and I really do need to contact 3rd Rail to buy the parts.

Bob, that's the first I've read of your wife's passing. I'm very sorry to hear the sad news. 

May your wife rest in peace.

I wish you the best.

Howard

Bob,

Sorry for your lost

My sincerest condolences go out to you and your family.

Andre.

There's Scott again, listening to his customers and looking for ways to constantly improve his products (and, as always, going to great lengths to make his existing products work properly).

What a great way to run a business!   

Thanks Howard and Andre.  I've spoken little of it on the forum so only a few folks knew.  Maybe I should have said more cause it's been a tough 4 weeks since she passed and it's been hard coping.  It was not unexpected (she had been in poor health for 4 years) but I didn't see it coming this soon (I talked to her that morning to tell her as soon as I got a shower I would be up to see her, before I could get in the shower the hospital called).  She would have wanted me to continue on with my hobbies so that's what I'm attempting to do.

I'll try giving 3rd Rail a call tomorrow.

I'm sure that's true Bob.  I've always found that working on trains helped me process through difficult times.

Bob,

My very deepest regrets on your wife's passing.  Now that we know, I'm sure many of us here on the forum will say an extra pryer for the both of you tonight...

With sorrow, Best,

Dave

Thanks Dave, all prayers are welcome.

Bob, I am so sorry for your loss. I sent you a email. Malcolm

Bob

Let me join everyone else here in offering my condolences for your loss.

Thanks Malcolm and Ted.  Malcolm, Nancy was from Vicksburg.  A woman she was friends with was married to a general manager of Mid-South RR and took me to their yard in Vicksburg for a tour once (their last name was Harmon).  They had GP10s I believe.

We had some good times in Vicksburg, Biloxi, and Jackson (she worked for the IRS when she lived in MS).

Bob,

Please accept my sincerest condolences for your loss.  I can't imagine how tough it must be for you now.  As you already know, you have the heartfelt support of all of us on the forum.  

Best always,

Jonathan 

Bob,

my condolences for your loss, also.

Bob,

Please accept my condolences for the loss of you wife.

Norm

Jonathan, Joe, and Norm, thanks.

You guys are the best.

I called 3rd Rail Friday but was told the parts guy was out of the office and he'll call me back Monday.  Hopefully they'll have the universal joints in stock, I'd like to get 4 just to have some on hand.  If not I'll go to my local RC car shop and find some that work.

Bob....

So very sorry to hear of your loss.  Please take care and know that all of us here at OGR have you and Nancy in our prayers....

Alan

Canon are nice....when I was in HO they were worth the price as size and performance was vital. But they are a little costly!

In O 3R I find you have more choices of good motors.

I have gotten great results out of Mabuchi can motors. Kinda funny as when I was a kid racing slot cars in the 60's Mabuchi was the choice then too!

I burned up a few can motors in HO....having to replace them.....but yet to totally burn one out in O 3R....

Bob,

I have not followed this blog earlier, but please accept my condolences on your loss.  Take care.

mikeg

Alan and Mike, thanks guys.

Best wishes, Bob.  

Mike CT