4-4-2 and 2-4-2 starter sets from the 80's and 90's

Those 4-4-2's were pretty much bullet-proof.

 

I had the 8800 Lionel Lines version and it ran like a top.  The only thing I didn't care for were the Lionel Lines 1980's graphics on the tender.  I managed to locate a Nickle Plate Road tender shell from the 8001 2-6-4. 

 

It made the 8800 look a LOT better.

 

Rusty

Here is a very tough one to find from 1981, I posted a photo of it and description on the MPC thread.  Even though the set is called Wabash Cannonball, the mismatched NY, NH and Hartford tender is actually correct.

 

 

 

 

I remember a Wabash and Nickel Plate Road set from the late 80s.  Don't remeber the set names though.

 

An additional sale item was a Great Northern (green) 4-4-2.  I got it one yr for Christmas, love that little engine.  I bet I ran a 100K miles on it, never quit and still have it.  Everything still works.  One of the best smokers too!

 

I wish I could find all the Lionel catalogs I had as a kid.  It was full of all these sets.

Unfortunately the diversity of road names on 4-4-2's included in train sets is somewhat limited, because of the nature of mass marketing of train sets. I don't know set numbers off hand, but sets with 4-4-2's have included Santa Fe, Union Pacific, and Pennsylvania.

 

Somewhere along the way, Lionel switched the dies for the 4-4-2 set locos. Early ones in the late 1980's, early 1990's came with a water boiler (someone will correct me as to what it really is) on the front of the loco. Later this was eliminated and market lights replaced this. Most come with cast in handrails, though some have added handrails.

 

The recent production ones that came with separate handrails have stantions that are somewhat fragile and easily broken. I'm certain this could be part of the reason why Lionel has returned to cast in ones. Though the bent-wire cotter pin stantions are far better, I understand there's a cost factor too.

 

There are a bunch of uncataloged sets that come with 4-4-2's, but they tend to be commercial promotion sets, like for Ford Motor Company. Very often though, the train cars in the set are also unique to the set.

 

Tender shells are easy enough to switch, or to repaint, so I wouldn't completely eliminate a train set, especially if it comes with whatever track you are using (027 or FasTrack) and you like the cars in the set. As you mentioned in another thread, the separate sale parts for the 4-4-2 are often more individually expensive than buying another engine (or set).

 

Separate sale 4-4-2's have had little more diversity with Reading, Atlantic Coast Line, Great Northern, Illinois Central (uncataloged), Texas and Pacific, C&O, Grand Trunk Western and there are more I don't recall right now.

 

The 2-4-2's are a recent re-entry back into the Lionel starter line, having not been offered very much during the LTI era and beyond. They were very common in sets during the MPC years and have some more vdiversity in road names.

 

There have been a few 2-4-0's offered, but often these are DC only engines with no circuit board reverse, but in a few more different roads. Lionel cataloged a few separate sale 2-4-0's in the mid-1990's that had a circuit board reverse unit, and thus could run on AC. It should be noted, many of these are not diecast, but have plastic loco shells. That also includes MPC era versions.

 

I like the fact that Lionel has recently been putting cars into some of the starter sets that are not available as separate sale. The recent Target set had a silver BNSF gondola and there was another recent set that had a yellow and black ATSF box car.

IF you're referring to the cylindrical dome above the smokebox front, that's a called a feedwater heater.  Specifically an Elesco-type.

 

The Nickel Plate set from the 1980s is a good one. They made a terrific wall poster of that set for separate sale, too. It was a blow up of the box cover art. Also, Lionel did make a couple of "Columbia-style" locos in the early 1970s with the original (& correct)  2-4-2 wheel configuration. I believe several were diecast. Check 1970-74 era listings.

Lionel did 4 uncataloged passenger sets for Sears, all with 4-4-2 locos.  The pass cars

in the sets are the regularly cataloged cars. Some images I found online:

 

 

New rule:

 

5. Separate sale locomotives are acceptable.

 

Thanks for all the input so far. I knew Lionel got a lot of mileage out of that platform, and still are! It's very interesting to see how much.

 

The current Lionel Scout set is a variation of the 4-4-2/2-4-2 platform. I'm on the fence about that one... It does have a Lehigh Valley hopper...

Thank you John Korling! I knew someone would know just what I was talking about. And that someone was you. Now why Lionel changed the 4-4-2 would be an interesting tidbit. I've never had that feedwater heater part break off, but maybe that happened to others? Maybe it was just a cost cutting move?

 

I'm sure most folks buying these sets don't notice or care, BUT it makes for a nice variation of this loco for those who plan on having a few, like Matt here.

 

ed h, well I guess that explains the uncataloged Illinois Central loco I mentioned.

 

ftauss, I agree. I've got a couple of those that pull remarkably well for being such a small, light locomotive. One of the things that prompted me to experiment with DC power to my track (which is how I've run my layout for many years now) was those DC only 2-4-0's. Those are easy kitbash engines: add lights, handrails, ornamental bell, whistle valve, repaint and add weight inside, and they also pull very well for a small loco.

My own favorite are the 4-4-2's that were made during the MPC era.

These engines were created from the 2-6-4 PW mold that was used right up to the end of PW production with the 2029.

 

These 4-4-2's have pullmor motors, and as mentioned are pretty bullet proof.

Most of these have pretty robust smoke units as well.

The earliest of these are the 8142's from 1971, on these units the trailing truck was die-cast, and the marker lights mimick the PW look. Later the trailing truck was made with metal wheels and plastic frames, and the marker lights were made part of the boiler face.  For a real challenge look for a 8142 with the electronic whistle.

 

 

Ken

 

I have an 8142 & 8304. They are pretty much unstoppable.  The smoke units on them are great too.  I think the 8142 looks a lot better w/ the marker lights  & die cast trail truck, but both are great runners

Ah yes, my early 90's NYC locomotive has the feedwater heater. It's also the best smoker of the three. It really chooches out some serious chooch when it gets warmed up.

The most recent 4-4-2 I've gotten was a MKT from a Toys R Us exclusive set with a TOFC and a boxcar decorated for Toys R Us. I collect the Lionel Toys R Us boxcars so I really wanted this one. I ended up giving the rest of the train to a friend's son I'll not forget how happy he was.

The Nickel Plate Special was my first set. I still have it somewhere in the back of the closet. I think its from 86 or 87.

Union Pacific Thunder Freight - ~1981

 

Do you (or anyone else) happen to know anything about this set? I think we have one, but know nothing about it.  Any info appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

 

Can't say enough good about these locomotives. My first set as a child was the "Heavy Iron" Santa Fe set--the original, not the later release with the Toys R Us boxcar. That set took immeasurable abuse from ten year old me and kept on running like a champ.

Now I have the following, and every one is a great runner:

Chessie 8008 from the Chesapeake Flyer set (DC)
Chessie 8403 from the Chessie System set
C&O 8632 from the Chessie Flyer set
C&O 8633 from the Coastal Limited set

The 8632 is the best smoker in my fleet of 50+ locomotives. These are all terrific sets. I plan to replace my original Heavy Iron set when I can track down a sealed one. Best of luck in your decision-making about which one to get next! From my perspective, you can't go wrong.

An interesting post. 

 

As I recall, MPC/Fundamentions didn’t make any of the Columbia type Scout loco shells  of die-cast metal until 1981. The 70s production was all plastic, which allowed them to do color – the gray Silver Star locos, the two-tone CNJ “Blue Streak” for example.

 

I believe the 8004 engine featured in the 1981 “Wabash Cannonball” set (pictured in this thread) was the first die-cast loco using this shell. It still had the AC Pulmor motor and a mechanical E-unit.

 

In 1982, Lionel produced the “Heavy Iron” set, with the die-cast 8213. It was the same shell, but had a DC can motor, electronic reversing board, along with a smoke unit. (That same year Lionel also made the 8214, a separate sale item, lettered for the Pennsylvania. These are hard to find.) Interestingly, these engines did not have switch to turn the reversing unit off.

 

At some point during the 82-83 production, Lionel altered the casting, lengthening the boiler ahead of the smoke stack. I assume this was to better accommodate the headlight/smoke unit.

 

Here’s a photo of an early 8213 shell (foreground) and an 8613 shell (1986 production). And a photo (from a world famous auction site) of a later-production 8213 with the longer boiler.

 

You can clearly see the extra half inch or so added to the boiler. While this may have made for easier assembly, I personally think it made for an uglier engine. The engine looks unbalanced with too much boiler ahead of the driving wheels. This may be why Lionel added a four-wheel lead truck in most future production – so the locomotive wouldn’t look so funny.

 

Anyway, my 8213 is getting repainted, and I’ve already drilled holes to add handrails. It will receive the the guts from the damaged 8613.

Here is a 1987 Mopar Express 4-4-2 Steam Engine in Lionel Mopar Express Starter set i have. This has been a great engine.  

 From a Bing search:

I bought this set for my oldest nephew back in '81.  A good basic set, Wabash gondola, Conrail "scout type" boxcar, DT&I open hopper, silver UP caboose, oval of O27 track, transformer, plastic trucks and couplers.

 

It was the top steam set back then.  I also gave him some extra track and a couple of turnouts, but he eventually moved past the train phase.

 

Rusty

Yes, that is it! It's a #6-1151. Every little bit helps. Thanks for the added info!

 

Even with the plastic trucks, at least good to know it was one of the better sets back then. I have not been able to find much info about the set. Since it's a definite '81 version (as OP said also) at least I can figure out what Lionel era it was from.

 

We got it for our daughter when she was 7 or 8, she did as your nephew, played with it for a couple years and then it went up to the attic. As I remember it had trouble staying on the track.  Just found it when we moved a few months ago. When I get some track set up again (soon I hope) I'm going to try it out and see if it still runs.

 

 

The 8042 Grand Trunk & Western from 1970 set 1084 was diecast. The same loco
with a Pennsylvania tender would later appear in an uncataloged Sears set.

Nobody has mentioned the Great Northern 4-4-2 yet. And the Alaska 4-4-2. Plus many more,

 C&NW, B&M, MKT, Rock Island, NP, T&P. A complete list can be found on Lionel's parts website.

Galley, the 8042 (Gran Trunk and other road names, circa 1970) and 8904 (Wabash circa 1979) were Columbias with metal bodies.  Both of these had Pullmor motors.

 

When the Heavy Iron came out in 1982 I'm pretty sure it only came with the DC can motor.  Lionel's electronic E-unit was brand new and still had a few teething troubles.  The Pennsylvania 8214 also used the old body design with a can motor.  However, I remember seeing a lot of 8214s with smeary, blurry detail and/or thickly applied paint.  It could be that the die was wearing out and needed renewing, which (combined with the move to Mexico) resulted in a shorter production run.  A crisp 8214 would be a neat find!

 

When the die was redone, the boiler front was lengthened.  Not sure why, perhaps to accommodate a four-wheel pilot truck, which is far more common among real trains.  I agree that the original design had a more balanced silhouette (even if the Columbia wheel arrangement was rare in the real world.)  Then again, my first loco was the blue 8303 you mentioned, so I'm a little biased .  The die has been redone a couple more times in the last 25 yrs, with some nice detail added in the process.  Although Lionel brought back the two-wheel leading truck, as far as I can tell the elongated smokebox remains.

 

Chuck, I always thought the Glacier Park green and silver was a great color scheme for this loco.  It also looks great on the point of a Christmas train.  A sneak preview of it appeared in the 1987 catalogue, a year before it came out!  Good discussion!

 

Fun fact: The 4-wheel motor/chassis for the 2-4-2 Columbia will interchange back to 1952, and forward to the present day!

My guess is that the four-wheel pony-truck is less susceptible to derailment than the lighter-weight, un-sprung two-wheel truck.

 

Jon

This post inspired me to take some photos of the engines discussed, plus since we are in the middle of snow storm work let out early.

 

The first picture is of the die-cast 2-4-2 from 1970, some of the engines are lettered in white, and some (as you see here) are not. The smoke stacks on these engines are enlarged as the folks in Mt. Clemens tinkered with the smoke units to improve the out put.

 

The other pictures show the RI, MLW, B & O versions of the 4-4-2's, and the 8800, a rare use of Lionel Lines during the MPC era.  I included a photo of the reworked boiler front that appeared on all these engines, EXCEPT the 8142.  The 8305 MLW is noteworthy has it came with the electronic whistle AND the mighty sound of steam.

 

Ken

 

 

I have the 6-1602 Nickel Plate Special set from 1987.  I got it for my kids and it still runs great.  Trouble free for 25+ years of many laps around the Christmas tree.

 

The 4-4-2 engine is #8617.

 

  --Joe

The UP Thunder Freight set is listed in the 1981 and 1982 catalogs.

 

On google, I found a hobby store ad from around Christmas 1981 showing price at $178 and change. Today that equates to about $480.

I specifically bought the Great Lakes Express from a recommendation on this forum, because the green passenger cars were evocative of the PW ones. Its a great set: runs well, looks good, and is reliable. 

here's a scan of the 1982 catalog w/ the Thunder Freight - 

 

Matt & Christopher, thanks for the added info on the Thunder Freight Set.

 

You probably know this, but Lionel still has the manual available online here:

6-1151 Manual 

Here is my first set, the Chesapeake Flyer.  Still in the original box, and runs many miles every year:

Johnny Cash did a commercial advertising the "Black River" Freight set.  I can't tell which steam locomotive it is  but he is holding the box set.




Steve, Lady and Tex

Your Chesapeake Flyer set, #1865 has the distinction of containing the first engine and caboose decorated in Lionel Lines livery during the MPC era.

 

During the MPC era there were other sets labeled Chesapeake Flyer before and after yours but they included engines decorated C & O, or Chessie.

 

Prior to your 8800, Lionel Lines engine, the last regular production engine to be labeled "Lionel Lines" was the Japanese made version of the 2029 in 1969.

 

Ken 

 

I am not sure when Lionel made a 2-4-2 with a DC can motor that ran on DC and had a different transformer then normal. Anyway I got the engine in somewhat beat-up shape, so I took the motor unit and installed it into a Lionel 235 scout engine and made it a 2-4-0.

 

Just to mention there are some variations out there on starter sets and you need to be careful when buying these if you plan to expand your layout.

If you find an engine with a DC can motor you can convert it to AC with a circuit board or just a bridge rectifier but you won't get direction control that way just one direction.

 

Lee Fritz