44 ton. Williams or MTH

I have a WbB "44 Tonner". It's like Lionel's original post-war, non-scale body. The scale models are on my "to get" list.

You already know the differences and they both run good. So you have to decide what you want from them.

MTH 44 ton is the way to go.  Be careful how you handle the locomotive as the handrailing is delicate.

Rich Yoder 44 tonner   TMCC, added.  Electro-couplers and sound. 

It REALLY depends on what YOU want. For Scale hood width, Power, and features its MTH....

For Conversion to TMCC its Williams for price and ease of installation as was discussed on this forum previously.

Both have scale height and Williams couplers are close to the SOLID pilot. 

BOTH have sound.

The Dual MOTORS is overkill in the MTH due to the 1:1 able to only pull 5-6 cars max on level track.

Biggest plus on the Williams is the FIXED pilots!! The MTH is very nice too but the fixed pilots are a huge deal to me especially on small switchers. I never understood why MTH didn't put that on there switchers. Lionel does. 

Curious:. Anybody have all three scale sized ones, or maybe OGR has tested all three (including Yoder?

Be forewarned, for whatever reason unexplained, if you go to the Bachmann website for Williams parts, and look under the scale 44 ton switcher, it has already been DISCONTINUED.

https://estore.bachmanntrains....k2o0i7hlevhknafkl0k7

I think this explains the blowout pricing from some dealers on these. So if you want one, you 'd better buy two of them: One to keep on hand for parts, since most of the parts for these (the ones that were available) are already gone.

Bear in mind, these did not have a long production run, so there's not going to be lots of them around on the secondary market like other models from other companies with discontinued engines that had larger and longer production runs... or used common universal parts.

And I have no idea whether the motor with the gear used in this 44 ton switcher might be the same motor and gear being used in their new 70 ton switcher. That would be helpful if some of the parts on these were compatible, but WBB doesn't have parts listed yet for the 70 ton switcher.

Note: The motor number for the scale 44 ton engine is #50016, which is the same motor used in the NW2 according to the universal parts listings. But it is currently out of stock. In case anyone needs it, here's the parts breakdown for the scale 44 ton engine.

https://www.bachmanntrains.com...WITCHERPartsList.pdf

I really like my WBB 44 Ton switcher. My only problem is that the frame catches on some of my Lionel Super O track uncoupler magnets. Just to clarify The Super O magnets are installed in Gargraves trackage. The problem has a number and I'll get to it someday.

I bought an MTH one for the Kodak roadname and its painted like an 80 tonner just down the road from me. I am pleased with it. Had Williams done a Kodak one or another one related to my location I would have bought it too. Was hoping MTH would do an Arcade and Attica 40 tonner but unlikely now.

Pete

I just purchased a Williams CN. Love the details it looks great, nice sounds. A little fast to start would be a good switching engine if it was geared lower. Perhaps go the the MTH if you want to do switching. The price is good at Trainworld right now.  I wonder about parts for trains now? If you release say a few hundred of a particular design of locomotive then you do not normally need the parts right away it only after several years of use that engines start to wear or get damaged and parts needed. So it would be great if the companies that make the trains kept the parts for many years to come for when they are needed. 

I have the Hoboken Shore Railroad 44 tonner from MTH. I had a Williams PRR version and the handrails broke the first time I took it out of the box. They are both great runners, but for some reason I gravitated toward the MTH engine.

I would like an Arcade and Attica version by MTH, like Norton. I think I may end up doing a custom paint job if I can get some decals...

Tom

@Krieglok posted:

I have the Hoboken Shore Railroad 44 tonner from MTH. I had a Williams PRR version and the handrails broke the first time I took it out of the box. They are both great runners, but for some reason I gravitated toward the MTH engine.

I would like an Arcade and Attica version by MTH, like Norton. I think I may end up doing a custom paint job if I can get some decals...

Tom

Wasn't Hoboken Frank Sinatra's home town? If so, knowing that Frank loved Lionel trains, I'm sure he would have loved Tom's beautiful MTH Hoboken Shore Railroad 44 tonner. Arnold

I own both.  They're both good, each in their own ways, but the price difference is huge.  If you're happy with conventional operation, I think the WBB is a no-brainer.  About a month ago (?) there was a thread about adding command control to the WBB, and it sounded like way more effort and expense than it was worth.  

I have a couple of MTH 44 tonners, great switching locos, excellent sound.

Dual motor in MTH is not overkill.  It doubles number of pulling axles.  I have it and the Ingersoll-Rand, which has one motor and less traction

Here are some photos comparing the two.  The MTH is on right or bottom.  You can see how much narrower the MTH's hood is.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Wasn't Hoboken Frank Sinatra's home town? If so, knowing that Frank loved Lionel trains, I'm sure he would have loved Tom's beautiful MTH Hoboken Shore Railroad 44 tonner. Arnold

Yes, Mr. Sinatra lived in Hoboken about five blocks west of the Hoboken Shore Railroad. In fact, the street where the Hoboken Shore “Mainline” ran from north to south along the docks, is now named “Frank Sinatra Drive”.... 

“On The Waterfront” with Marlon Brando, was also filmed in Hoboken. Few if any good shots of the railroads there in the 1950’s, unfortunately ....

Tom

I have the MTH 44 tonner in LIRR.   All the PS3 features and great pulling power. I use it primarily for switching operations but once it was hauling 17 cars and doing it rather easily.

I have a Williams that I converted to TMCC and RailSounds, and I also have the MTH 44-ton, both in PRR.  I have to say, the MTH is superior, but I like them both.  The plastic handrails on the Williams break if you sneeze near it.

Williams 44-Ton Upgrade with ERR CC-Lite, Sound, & Electrocouplers

@brianel_k-lineguy posted:

Be forewarned, for whatever reason unexplained, if you go to the Bachmann website for Williams parts, and look under the scale 44 ton switcher, it has already been DISCONTINUED.

https://estore.bachmanntrains....k2o0i7hlevhknafkl0k7

I think this explains the blowout pricing from some dealers on these. So if you want one, you 'd better buy two of them: One to keep on hand for parts, since most of the parts for these (the ones that were available) are already gone.

Bear in mind, these did not have a long production run, so there's not going to be lots of them around on the secondary market like other models from other companies with discontinued engines that had larger and longer production runs... or used common universal parts.

https://www.bachmanntrains.com...WITCHERPartsList.pdf

While it sounds like a good point, FWIW, Bachmans parts for the 44 locomotive was only the shell and the frame with motor/rev and sound. In other words they really didn't offer a lot of parts to begin with...not to mention the outrageous prices for them. You were better buying a deep discount unit from the "tw dealer" and stripping the loco yourself than buying parts from bachmann direct!

For what it's worth, the MTH 44-tonner is my very favorite small switcher. I have five of them, and all have performed well.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The plastic handrails on the Williams break if you sneeze near it.

Gunrunnerjohn,

Where did the handrails break on the Williams loco?  What caused the break?  Photos would be helpful.

Thank you,

Old Goat

I bought a pair of Williams Santa Fe toners. I don’t run long freight trains and I’m backdating my freight train roster.  My thinking is that one of them will eventually be turned into a GE steeple-cab electric.

The MTH version is one of my favorite diesels. All metal. Scale hood width. A great effort overall. I have two so far, including this Milwaukee Road model.

For me, the recent Williams by Bachmann scale 44-tonner (as opposed to the grossly out-of-scale Lionel postwar copy that stretched a tiny switcher into a large one) was a logical step, but Bachmann relied on dimensional design work dating back to the early 1990s, when the company introduced its Spectrum line HO model, That was a deal breaker, because Bachmann at that time still wasn’t committed to true scale fidelity.

However, because the sales of the newer Williams by Bachmann 44-tonner have apparently been so weak, I have seen blowout prices on that model. I think TrainWorld has a bunch for $130. So maybe that’s a consideration for you.

@RJR posted:

Dual motor in MTH is not overkill.  It doubles number of pulling axles.  I have it and the Ingersoll-Rand, which has one motor and less traction

The 1:1 pulled 3-5 cars max on level track. The Single motor W.B.B. version is quite capable of doing that even up an incline.

But hey its your rr. If you want to be a "Tim the Toolman" engineer go for it.

MTH 44 Ton is one of my favorite locomotives in my roster. Beautiful detail, great sounds and strong puller!

A statement of the number of cars a loco can pull is a useless number.  There is a wide range of drag between the postwar Lionel and the latest MTH premiers.  The latter will roll by themselves or track barely inclined.  The former need a real steep grade to move on their own.

@L.I.TRAIN posted:

I have the MTH 44 tonner in LIRR.   All the PS3 features and great pulling power. I use it primarily for switching operations but once it was hauling 17 cars and doing it rather easily.

Yes, I have a LIRR sample, too, and to the positive comments from L.I.TRAIN I would add that it runs smoothly with excellent slow speed control and operating remote couplers while under conventional operation.  Great little critter for yard operations. And the train collector in me loves the die cast construction.  With top rate QC for my sample, the M.T.H. 44 tonner gets my highest recommendation. 

Have fun.

Bob

@Norton posted:

I bought an MTH one for the Kodak roadname and its painted like an 80 tonner just down the road from me. I am pleased with it. Had Williams done a Kodak one or another one related to my location I would have bought it too. Was hoping MTH would do an Arcade and Attica 40 tonner but unlikely now.

Pete

The A&A has 2 44 tonners (110- the original- on display; 111- probably out of service) a 65 tonner (112- in service) and a recently acquired 80 tonner (113- in service). They’re all currently wearing the orange w/ black end stripes scheme. It may be possible to find custom decals for the A&A diesels- there was a guy who did some for me years ago for an HO 44 tonner and the passenger cars but I have no idea who it was, someone in the WNY area...

And if we’re talking genie-in-a-bottle level wishes I’d love an accurate O gauge model of #18 (small 2-8-0 for those who aren’t familiar with the A&A).

We stopped there last year. Their equipment is spotless. No weathering required. MTH could have done their 64' woodside cars in this scheme too. Not a match but close enough.

Pete

I've had both the MTH and Williams models. Both are very nice cosmetically. I liked both but I'd have to give the nod to MTH for a few reasons. This isn't a dig on the Williams engine - it is terrific. I just was not particularly happy with it's performance as a switcher. 

I purchased a Williams version at York one year...I think it was before MTH's had been released and I was sick of waiting. I returned it. I wanted to use it as a switcher and I found it a bit "stop or go" and hard to use as a switcher. There wasn't much coasting or smooth starts/stops. I just found it a little "jerky" for switching. I also found the manual couplers a bit difficult to maneuver but not a total deal breaker. I didn't care about fixed pilots. 

I have tubular track on my layout and I've found MTH's version a bit hit or miss on tubular track too. The MTH has only 2 out of 4 axles powered. I found on my tight curves that the engine would sometimes lose traction. I preordered the Long Island version from the initial announcement...and actually had to exchange it as it just wouldn't even move itself. The replacement was and still is a great engine. I also found that the MTH version does not have a lot of vertical play in the trucks. Perhaps a way to please the "fixed pilot" folks by keeping the gap to a minimum. I found that on uneven track, the lack of vertical play in the trucks would cause the powered axles to lift off the rails slightly. At least in my experience, the MTH 44t is THE engine to use to find your less than perfect track as it will find them QUICKLY! 

I also purchased the MTH Strasburg 44T (another winner!) and the MTH Boston and Maine as a replacement to my ill-fated Lionel Mogul. I sold the B&M as it was more of an impulse-buy and I later decided I had no need for 3 of the same engine. Nothing was wrong with the B&M, I just decided it wasn't something I wanted to keep. 

thanks for all your replies.  I'll probably start with williams ($$$)  then maybe MTH for control with dcs system 

Thanks again. 

I think both are good.  My MTH has somewhat better sound, but in terms of value for the money, the WBB is probably preferable.  One consideration:  MTH makes the earlier Phase 1 version (radiator louvers on the sides - see the Milwaukee Road example above) as well as the later Phase 4 with the radiators on the ends  If you want to be faithful to a particular Phase 1 prototype, then go for the MTH.  

For those looking for decals try Modern Rails Decals (www.modernrails.com). Ricky Rupp is the owner and very easy to deal with. He used to be located out in western New York, but now may be located in a southern state (GA?). He does custom work.

Just bought this from Trainworld. A great little engine,  sound level is just right & I'm surprised it can pull so many cars in this trial run, 14 assorted freight running on 048 fastrack. 

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

The Dual MOTORS is overkill in the MTH due to the 1:1 able to only pull 5-6 cars max on level track.

FWIW, the Williams had dual motors as well, one in each power truck.  They're a bit smaller than the MTH, but they're there in duplicate.

@modeltrainsparts posted:

For those looking for decals try Modern Rails Decals (www.modernrails.com). Ricky Rupp is the owner and very easy to deal with. He used to be located out in western New York, but now may be located in a southern state (GA?). He does custom work.

That’s the guy that did the decals in HO for me! I never would have remembered his name/info on my own...

I can definitely recommend him!

Nice sound on the Williams.