4907 Lionel GG1 Question

Dan Padova posted:

This #4907 Lionel GG1 looks like a newer version as it has what appears to be an electronic E-Unit.  Upon opening it up, I see things in there that are not familiar to a post-war operator.  

First, what I believe to be the E-Unit.  Second, I have never seen braided copper wire attached directly to the carbon brushes.  

Some photos.

Dan, what I am about to say is as mechanically technical as I get.

Does it run? If so, we all know what Yogi Berra said: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Thanks for chiming in Arnold.  No, it doesn't run.  I am currently waiting for a response from the seller.  

Dan,

This GG1 was one of the first TMCC controlled GG1's ever produced, in the mid 90's. The LCRU circuit board in your photo is not really an e-unit, but a command control board that will run your engine in either conventional or command modes. And it's the early version of that board.  These boards do fail quite frequently.

It seems that perhaps you were not aware that this is a TMCC engine. So, did you check the switch on the bottom to make sure that "run" is selected, and not "program"?

Alternatively, are you trying to run this in conventional while you have an active command base on your layout? If so, it won't run.

Dan:

This GG-1 has been frequently discussed on this Forum.  Do an archive search using its Lionel SKU # of 6-18313.

Bill

I run conventional only, with a ZW transformer.  I will check the switch at the bottom of the loco.  Alternately, couldn't I simply trash the circuit board and trash all of the other electronics and wire the two motors directly to the pick-up rollers and frame ?   I realize it will only run in one direction in this case.  

Or, I could buy an E-Unit, either mechanical or a Dallee unit and wire it up that way.  The motors are regular Pullmor motors.  

Also, why are the brushes wired directly to the copper leads ?in the way they are in the photos ?  

This GG-1 has staked magnets.  Meaning the magnets are pinched in the middle of the frame above the drive axles.  If the magnet becomes dislodged, it will slide to either side and literally stick to a drive wheel keeping it from rotating.  (The magnets are that powerful.)

Putting some kind of a wedge to recenter the magnet in the frame (on both sides if necessary), and then dropping some liquid ACC to lock the magnet in the proper place will resolve the situation.

I had this happen with mine at the time it was released.

Fred

The motor brushes are shunted. That means that there is a braided wire that connects to the brush. The purpose of the braided wire is to give a smooth path for current flow. In the past because of slop the brushes were (and still are) often smaller than the brush holders which sometimes forces current flow through the springs. This would cause excessive sparking and sometimes even melt the spring. The braided wire allows for a path for the current to flow so the current does not have to go through the springs. 

Generally speaking, shunted brushes allow for better current flow through the armature and allows for cooler operation. That is until Lionel got it into their mind to use brushes with very high resistance, but that is a recent development and not applicable to your GG1. 

I bought one of these sight unseen and finally ran it on my carpet layout. Ran great conventionally but don't know which way the switch is.

Fred Brenek posted:

This GG-1 has staked magnets.  Meaning the magnets are pinched in the middle of the frame above the drive axles.  If the magnet becomes dislodged, it will slide to either side and literally stick to a drive wheel keeping it from rotating.  (The magnets are that powerful.)

Putting some kind of a wedge to recenter the magnet in the frame (on both sides if necessary), and then dropping some liquid ACC to lock the magnet in the proper place will resolve the situation.

I had this happen with mine at the time it was released.

Fred

Well Fred, give me a "D" for disbelief.  I dismantled the motors from the trucks and low and behold, there were the magnets.  All four of them rubbing on the drivers.  I centered them with shims and epoxied them in place.  The metal truck casting had been peened to keep the magnets centered.  Apparently the peening wasn't enough.  Maybe the loco was mishandled at some point.  Although from it's appearance you wouldn't know it.  Possibly the truck castings or the magnets expanded or contracted at some point.  Who knows.

Thank you for your insight.  I'll let the JB Weld set over night and see how things work tomorrow.  

When the run switch is over the two wires, it is in program mode, this is easy to see with the shell off, when switch is over the otherway, center wire to blank space you are in run mode.   Also will act as a E unit lock out switch when running with command base off...

The original magnates where held in place by double sided tape, a very bad idea. Almost all of them need re-cementing so they don't rub the wheel backs.\

Marty

So I had good luck with the magnet issue.  However, not so good luck with running.  On my layout, it runs but falters going over a small, two section, place where I have one outside rail insulated to activate a trackside accessory.  Also the loco seems to be drawing alot of juice.  

So here's my plan.  First, the motors look like a standard Lionel Pullmor motor.  If I gut all of the electronics, why couldn't I simply wire the two motors to the center rail pick-ups and the chassis ?  As I mentioned in an earlier post, running in one direction will be fine for this particular loco.  

I did a preliminary test where I touched the red wire ( from the center rail pick-ups and the chassis with my test leads.  Nothing happened.  Not sure why at this point.  Maybe it has something to do with the circuit board you see in the photo.

In the last two photos, you can see the yellow wire nut.  This has a red and two black wires twisted together.  The two black wires are connected to the center rail pick-ups.   

Any thoughts would be welcomed.  

Did a search here and found a thread about this loco from 2015.  The magnet issue was mentioned but nothing about electronics.  

Dan,

In photos of the left engine, one brush braiding appears to be lying on top of the center "OIL" tab.  This will cause a short, or at least an intermittent short.   Move the braiding and see if things improve.

Bruce

Is it possible only one motor is working? Once the magnet issue was resolved, it should be cruising along and not pulling more current than I suspect you are getting from your description.  Any chance some JB weld found its way to axle?

Also, have you removed and reseated the yellow wire nut?  I've some problems with these early TMCC units where the wires weren't stripped enough in the nut. BTW, if you ever decide to use TMCC with this loco, you need to use the pantographs as they act as the receiver antenna.

Fred

Dan Padova posted:

Did a search here and found a thread about this loco from 2015.  The magnet issue was mentioned but nothing about electronics.  

I have this engine, too, and as I mentioned above, there have been several different threads over the years about this GG-1 on this Forum including discussions of the electronics.  Try searching again with "18313" in the search box.

Bill

brwebster posted:

Dan,

In photos of the left engine, one brush braiding appears to be lying on top of the center "OIL" tab.  This will cause a short, or at least an intermittent short.   Move the braiding and see if things improve.

Bruce

Before testing the loco I noticed that also and moved the wire.  I took the picture before hand.

Fred Brenek posted:

Is it possible only one motor is working? Once the magnet issue was resolved, it should be cruising along and not pulling more current than I suspect you are getting from your description.  Any chance some JB weld found its way to axle?

Also, have you removed and reseated the yellow wire nut?  I've some problems with these early TMCC units where the wires weren't stripped enough in the nut. BTW, if you ever decide to use TMCC with this loco, you need to use the pantographs as they act as the receiver antenna.

Fred

Both motors turn freely.  I noticed what seemed to me to be a dimming of the green pilot light on my ZW transformer.  No other loco I have does this.  But I don't have any other locos with the same circuit board as this one.  

I checked the JB weld and cleaned any that got between the magnets and the wheels.  There wasn't much.  Then, with the motors removed from the trucks, I spun the wheels by hand and they moved freely.

I did have the yellow wire nut off and checked to see that all three wires were stripped and twisted together before I re-installed the wire nut.  

What are the four blue canisters and what do they do for the locomotive ?

If I remove the LCRU can I wire this thing to run by using the simple method of hooking the motors up to the center rail pick-ups and the outside rails ?

Dan Padova posted:

What are the four blue canisters and what do they do for the locomotive ?

If I remove the LCRU can I wire this thing to run by using the simple method of hooking the motors up to the center rail pick-ups and the outside rails ?

 

The blue canisters are called capacitors, or "caps." Their purpose is to cut down on the electrical noise generated by the Pullmor motors. These, along with the shunted brushes, have been standard issue on Pullmor motors for about the last 25 years.

There's nothing stopping you from wiring the motors directly to track power, assuming you know the right way of doing that. This might help you see if the problems you're experiencing are mechanical or electrical with the LCRU. But instead of entirely removing the electronics for your test, I would disconnect the LCRU from track power, as well as remove the green, blue and yellow leads from each motor's brushplate. This way, if you find that the problem is mechanical, you still can still easily reconnect the LCRU and use it as an e-unit.

Lastly, take note of Bruce's note above regarding one of the shunted brushes possibly touching the brass center oil wick strap on one of your motors. They shouldn't touch.

TRW

PaperTRW posted:

Dan Padova posted:

What are the four blue canisters and what do they do for the locomotive ?

If I remove the LCRU can I wire this thing to run by using the simple method of hooking the motors up to the center rail pick-ups and the outside rails ?

 

The blue canisters are called capacitors, or "caps." Their purpose is to cut down on the electrical noise generated by the Pullmor motors. These, along with the shunted brushes, have been standard issue on Pullmor motors for about the last 25 years.

There's nothing stopping you from wiring the motors directly to track power, assuming you know the right way of doing that. This might help you see if the problems you're experiencing are mechanical or electrical with the LCRU. But instead of entirely removing the electronics for your test, I would disconnect the LCRU from track power, as well as remove the green, blue and yellow leads from each motor's brushplate. This way, if you find that the problem is mechanical, you still can still easily reconnect the LCRU and use it as an e-unit.

Lastly, take note of Bruce's note above regarding one of the shunted brushes possibly touching the brass center oil wick strap on one of your motors. They shouldn't touch.

TRW

Thank you.  I must ask for a bit more information, I'm afraid.  I thought I knew how to wire the motors for direct track power. Apparently not so.  Checking the wiring diagrams shown in the K-Line "repair manual for Lionel trains", it appears the pick-up rollers get connected to the center stud where the green wire is now.  There is where I am confused.  

A simple wiring diagram would be most helpful.  One that shows how to wire a motor directly to track power without the use of an E-Unit.  

Connect the center roller p/u wires, yellow, to one of the brush tabs,  depending on the forward direction, will depend on which brush tab.  connect a short wire from field tab, green, to the other brush tab, now run three wires from the first hooked up motor to other motor.   Now they boteh should work.  without the LCRU you will lose the lighting feature.

Marty

Martin Derouin posted:

Connect the center roller p/u wires, yellow, to one of the brush tabs,  depending on the forward direction, will depend on which brush tab.  connect a short wire from field tab, green, to the other brush tab, now run three wires from the first hooked up motor to other motor.   Now they boteh should work.  without the LCRU you will lose the lighting feature.

Marty

Thank you very much Marty.  Finally someone understands my question.  That's not to say that the others were not helpful.  It just took some time getting to this point.

We have ignition !   Thanks again.  The loco is working according to Hoyle.  

Glad it worked out for you, how are you lighting the lights???

Marty

Having trouble with my 4907, it won't recognize the TMCC.  I have it open and I see there is a short ground from the pantograph that is disconnected.  In Dan's photos, you can see the same ground coming from the pantograph in the left of the picture.....where does this connect on the circuit board.  It is very short, about 3 inches, so it has to connect somewhere near the computer gizmo

Choco 

The green wire is used if you choose the run your locomotive from a catenary system.  It would be a hot lead (center rail) but, if you are not using a catenary, you can leave it disconnected.

If you have other TMCC locomotives working properly, I would make sure that the wheels and rollers are clean.  Also, there should be a wire that serves as the antenna, make sure that is connected and not touching anything else.

If you have other TMCC engines with similar issues, make sure your TMCC base is plugged into a properly ground outlet (no extension cords).  The that the track is clean and there is continuity of the outside rails all around our layout.

I do not have this locomotive.  Hopefully someone with more knowledge than I will chime in.

After I moved the magnets this is one of the best pullmor motored engines I’ve ever had. I don’t run it anymore simply cause I love cruise and can motors. 

Martin Derouin posted:

When the run switch is over the two wires, it is in program mode, this is easy to see with the shell off, when switch is over the otherway, center wire to blank space you are in run mode.   Also will act as a E unit lock out switch when running with command base off...

The original magnates where held in place by double sided tape, a very bad idea. Almost all of them need re-cementing so they don't rub the wheel backs.\

Marty

Marty....thanks for the info...I have the 4907,was not able it get it into TMCC mode...thanks again...joe

I got a lot of helpful info. I will check out more sure acts like a  bad connection . Two unanswered questions? pantographs a antenna or power for a catenary?  and wear exactly does the green wire plug in?   Thank you Roy O 

The wire to the pantograph is for the antenna.  No wire, no signal.

Jon  

Mine is running real hot after 10 minutes or so. Any ideas please!!

Do a motor maintenance on the motor and lub as well.

I wish to epoxy magnets in place out can’t remove magnet from truck. JB quick weld is two parts and without magnet removed it can possibly get epoxy on axle. Any videos or suggestion to do this correctly? Thanks , Greg

Two flat head screw drivers - one on each side of the magnet would help center the magnet.  Some superglue dripped on the CENTERS (not the ends) of each magnet should lock them in place.

Happened to me when it was NEW.

Good luck,

Fred

I don't understand Fred's response.  Personally I can't envision performing a good repair without first removing the magnet completely, and cleaning the mating surfaces.

I think I remember reading in the repair manual that Lionel affixed the magnets with "iron glue."  I think the closest thing we have that's readily available today is JB Weld.  I agree that you should apply the adhesive closer to the center of the truck.  Don't use so much that it could squeeze out the ends and get into the gears or axle bearings!

Many adhesives take up to 24 hours to set fully.  That's obviously too long to be standing there with a couple of screwdrivers.  If I were going to do this repair myself, I would make a careful measurement of the side play in the truck  axles.  I would divide that figure by two, and insert non-magnetic (wood or plastic) shims on each side, between the magnet and the wheels.  Maybe even clamp the magnet down to the truck casting with a C-clamp.  Hopefully this would keep it perfectly centered until the adhesive cures fully.  Good luck with your repair!