4x8 Fastrack Christmas tree expansion(now 4x10)

You really need 2 reversing loops. If you only have 1, the only way to reverse again will be to back through the loop.

In your case, I think the smallest footprint for 2 loops might be a Figure 8 (see photo). Unfortunately, the tracks don't join in the software in 4 places and I have no idea if there's enough "give" in FasTrack for them to join in reality.

I don't know enough about the trains and wall packs, but I assume you have 1 connected to each loop and I don't know if that creates a short where the crossover switches meet each other. I don't believe they are underpowered, but someone else will have to chime in. I also don't know about adding a 3rd train.

Lionel makes wall packs of different wattages and not knowing which ones you have, it's not possible to say if the total is sufficient. My guess is that it is. The wall packs are DC voltage. Like Dave said, I'm assuming one wall pack is connected to the inner loop and the other to the outer. An upgrade would be to an AC transformer - right now my recommendation would be for an MTH Z-1000 as a starter AC transformer. If you wanted to wait, I would recommend the new  Lionel CW-80 scheduled to come out next spring.

Using the crossovers, themselves, should not create any issues. One potential problem area is that there are no additional power connections to the track so that the voltage to the track decreases the further you get from the initial connection point. That may be the issue where you lose power on the straight sections. You can check that by measuring voltage at different points along your trackage with a multi-meter or digital volt meter (preferred). However, it is difficult to add additional power drops using wall packs, barrel connectors and terminal sections, if that turns out to be the issue. You should also check and make sure your Fastrack connections are tight. There are threads on the Forum you can search for about how to improve those connections.

Finally, even if everything checks out, voltage-wise, engines can easily lose power going over switches, especially short engines with closely spaced pick-up rollers, because they lose temporary contact with the rails. That's why speeding up through the switches helps.

@Richie C. posted:

Lionel makes wall packs of different wattages and not knowing which ones you have, it's not possible to say if the total is sufficient. My guess is that it is. The wall packs are DC voltage.  Like Dave said, I'm assuming one wall pack is connected to the inner loop and the other to the outer.

Each wall pack is 31.5w.

You are correct, each loop has a terminal receiving power.  I've highlighted each of those terminal sections in purple.  I will be sure to check the connections and follow up.

@DoubleDAZ posted:

You really need 2 reversing loops. If you only have 1, the only way to reverse again will be to back through the loop.

In your case, I think the smallest footprint for 2 loops might be a Figure 8 (see photo).

Thank you for your valuable input.  I think I will consider 2 loops instead of 1 for sure. I did not think of a figure 8 like in your display photo, very nice!

Thank you both!

@Richie C. posted:

Finally, even if everything checks out, voltage-wise, engines can easily lose power going over switches, especially short engines with closely spaced pick-up rollers, because they lose temporary contact with the rails. That's why speeding up through the switches helps.

Just wanted to follow up.

After tightening all the tracks and cleaning each section, I removed the 4 switches from the layout and ran each of the two trains on separate loops without any issues.

I added the 4 switches back into the set up and as soon as either of the engines hit the area of where I assume they lose contact with the rails, the engine stops. 

As before, Thomas needs a nudge to get going again, while Percy will just stop and after a few moments will get started again. Both of these engines seem smaller than others so it seems this is the best explanation as to the sputter and stoppage.    I just ran them a bit faster, but the switches were a great addition.

My daughter already asked "what's next?" for next years addition. 

I'll purchase the new CW80 when it comes out and look into a bigger engine in hopes I don't have any of the above issues.  Thanks again

Do Percy and Thomas have single pickup roller? I have two MTH 4-6-0 engines and when I run them slow they, they stop on the turnouts. They each have one roller on the engine. My other engines both MTH and Lionel LC will run slow over them. They all have two center pickup rollers.

Both engines, Thomas & Percy, have a roller in the front and back. 

I'm tempted to go out and buy a longer engine before I set down the tree and setup today, but i think it's just a safe bet the issue is because the engine is small and the rollers are close to eachother.

I'll leave the new engine and experiment on the new set up next year.

@Punk posted:

Both engines, Thomas & Percy, have a roller in the front and back.

I'm tempted to go out and buy a longer engine before I set down the tree and setup today, but i think it's just a safe bet the issue is because the engine is small and the rollers are close to each other.

That, and make sure the rollers, drive wheels, and rails are clean, also.  Even if it doesn't cure the problem, it sure won't hurt to clean them once in awhile, for best electrical contact and performance.

That time of year again!  Hope everyone enjoyed their 2021 and is getting ready to get their toys out if they are not already set up.

About to order the new parts for the '21 set up.  As per above, one of the items I was going to add to the set up this year was the new CW80, that I was looking for and it never came in stock and it appears this will not be shipped until after Christmas.  https://www.lionelstore.com/CW...sformer-New-Improved

Any thoughts on a replacement for a similar product?

I will be adding the reverse loops in the form of the inside figure 8 and have shared the vision of the new setup similar to what @DoubleDAZ recommended.  I did cut off 3 1/2" from the top side of the layout and pushed together the two tracks.  So my other question is- will the engines have any issues this close to each other and the top side of the layout?


Once again I think you all in advance for reading.

-A

@Punk posted:

... will the engines have any issues this close to each other and the top side of the layout?

Without recreating the track plan pictured above, it's difficult to tell what the center to center track spacing is.  What does your track planning software indicate?

Knowing whether engines coming around the inside loop at the ends of the curves will interfere with trains on the outside loop will depend on how much overhang those particular engines have at the front and rear.

Just eyeballing it though, it does seem like there is a good chance of some contact, depending on the trains.

@SteveH posted:

Just eyeballing it though, it does seem like there is a good chance of some contact, depending on the trains.

Yea it was a bit close, I had it to where the rail beds were touching.

I updated it to 2 3/4"on the current design as this will keep it within the 4ft width I have allocated. 

I assume this will be enough? 

If you mean 2-3/4" distance between adjacent tracks' roadbeds, that equates to 6" center rail spacing.  That's generally considered to be enough spacing for most applications.

Hope everyone enjoyed their 2022 a lot more than their 2021! 

A bit behind this year, but happy to report the set up is running, as of 35 minutes ago. 

As we have used all of the allotted floor space, the only addition we made this year was 0-8-0 Reading Steam Engine.

Before opening it up, once again we gave both Thomas and Percy a run on the full track and each time they continued to sputter.  Opened up the new engine, was happy to see it shares the controller as the Thomas controllers, and to my surprise...it ran fantastic!  I was sure I was going to have to take down the track and wire everything underneath, but not at all!  I am still using just the two wall packs and can't be happier with how it ran.

It is clear to me now the issue was indeed the fact the rollers are so close to each other on both Thomas & Percy.  The only down side now is I will have to go out and buy another engine for both kids to use at the same time...I guess not really a down side.

The one question I have this year is, do you attempt to optimize or more so minimalize the amount of connections? For example, instead of 3x 10" straights, should I just replace them with a 30"?  My thought is that this would maybe improve the possibility of Percy & Thomas running on the layout.

I have shared the list of materials from Any Rail, if you think there is some room for improvement please feel free to share.  Thanks in advance!

Hope everyone is well!  Thanks again for the great advice!

-A

The general idea is usually to minimize connections, thereby minimizing the chances of electrical connectivity issues.

That said, I'm not sure I'd run out and spend a lot of money to buy a bunch of 30" straights to replace all my 3 X 10" straights.

A search of this Forum will reveal all sorts of ways to improve connectivity on both straight and curved trackage and switches, including wiring sections together from underneath using solder or tabs.

Thanks for input.  I pulled up improve connectivity in the forum search.

It does seem connecting the sections underneath and wiring each track is the way to go.

Am I wrong in thinking this more for a permanent display? I would question if that is the best path for a "seasonal layout", please correct me if I am wrong? 

Over the last few years, I probably have spent more time checking the tracks for dirt and proper connection in the middle rail vs running them.  While this could have just been more of an issue with Thomas and Percy; if this is the best route, I can imagine it saving quite a bit of frustration.  So I am all ears.  My concern here, I would think this would impact breaking the layout down and setting it back up again, no?

I like the fact that it could save time in taking things apart and checking for power drops over and over.  I would also think maybe something more modular would a compromise between seasonal and permanent display.   I have shared a picture below re: a modular idea.

Would you recommend sectioning off either 2' x 2' squares or a 2' x 4' rectangles?  I assume the pieces that would overlap between two sections would just be placed once the display goes down that fits the puzzle together.

Any recommendation on a material? OSB could be a bit heavy, but maybe Masonite?   

Thanks again!

I'd go with Foam, especially if you are going to move the layout around.  First xmas layout I built was foam ontop of 1/2" OSB, and was really difficult to bring up from the basement.  My 2nd layout is a 10 x 5, comprised of two 5x5 sections of foam, with 1"x2" strips under to secure the pieces of foam together.  Much easier to transport up and down.

"It does seem connecting the sections underneath and wiring each track is the way to go."

You wouldn't need to run wire to each track.  Adding power feeds to areas , like each end of the loops, the cross over tracks, between the switches, will help keep an even level of power though out the layout

Thanks for the reply,

Forgive me as I am unaware, but wouldn't this only be possible if I move away from the wall packs to the CW80?

Thanks in advance!

Not an electronics expert, but I would think there’d be some power loss from multiple drops from the wall packs. I have no idea just how much, but I think overall you’d have sufficient power distributed more evenly around the layout. Check out this thread:

https://ogrforum.com/...o-underside-of-track

Power loss from not having enough connection points (power drops) along the layout and power loss as a result of connectivity issues between sections of track are two different and separate issues.

I would first make sure you have enough drops around the layout, which you can check by taking voltage measurements all around the layout with a simple digital volt meter (dvm). Certainly, having drops every 4-6 track sections should be enough.

If you are then still having issues with electrical connectivity, you can proceed with the solutions for Fastrack, including adding longer (30") pieces and/or soldering wires between track pieces as a last resort.

Although not easy with a temporary layout, you could divide the layout in half and wire all the track on one side and then mount that half layout to a 4 X 5 section of 2" thick foam and do the same for the other side. That will allow you to break down and store each section and then re-connect each half the next season.

To semi-permanently mount the FT to the foam, do this:

Lay out the wired together half-layout track on the half foam section where you want it to go. Take a long thin finish nail and mark into the foam where a screw hole exists in the track pieces and press down into the foam to mark the location of each hole. You do not need a screw in every track piece - every other piece should be sufficient - two in the 30" pieces. Remove the track and re-mark each hole with a sharpie. Purchase wall anchors with screws that will be long enough and thin enough to fit into the FT track mounting holes. They will be hard to find, but get ones that are close and, if too thick of a gauge, you can widen/countersink the FT hole in the track with a drill bit of a size to match your wall anchor screws.

Drill a hole of the correct size in the foam at each sharpie location to insert the plastic wall anchors (do not drill all the way through the foam - just deep enough to seat the plastic anchor flush with the top of the foam). Put some construction adhesive in each hole and insert a wall anchor in each hole; push firmly into the foam so the top of the wall anchor is flush or just under the level of the foam board; and let dry overnight. Next day, lay your half-layout on the foam and so that the holes in the track line up with the anchors and then attach a screw at each location into the anchors. Put a little lubrication (Vasoline works) on each screw before tightening - do not overtighten. If done correctly, this should work.