Skip to main content

Hello fellow O-Gauge railroaders!

I seem to have discovered an issue with one of my engines. My Postwar Lionel #681 Turbine does not want to reverse properly, and is making a bunch of unhealthy noises when I attempt/it attempts to reverse.

I've had this particular 681 for approximately a year and two months now. I bought it from "Westside Trains" at Las Vegas, Nevada during Spring Break of2018 (shoutout to the two kind men at the store who were there if y'all are on this forum) alongside a modified 2046W tender that came with the engine (backup lights), a 9436 Burlington caboose and a PW 6357 lighted caboose. For the most part, this 681 has been in two places: On the track running, or on the track as a display. Over the past year and two months, it has never given me any problems when I've ran it and this is the first big red flashing alarm that age is catching up to the old engine. Now I'm no maintenance guy, but even I know a 681 isn't supposed to do this but I don't know what the problem is. I have come to the conclusion that it has to be repaired.

I talked to my family about the engine and possibly going to a local Hobbytown to get the issue looked at, but they told me to look around and see if the issue can be solves here at home before we spend money on it getting looked at. I would like you guys to give an opinion on it first. The main reason for this is because if the issue is minor and can be solved easily, I'd like to take that route to save a pretty penny. If the issue is NOT minor, I am not going to take any risks opening up the shell because I fear I may alter/damage something that in turn makes the engine virtually un-runnable.

Included is a video and 4 screenshots of the pickup rollers. The reason I am including the PU rollers is because they have a little indentation from approximately 60 years of running on track, which may or may not be another reason as to why the engine isn't working right. Better safe than sorry! Like I said, I'm no mechanic.

From the video below (or attached if not working), the sound it makes when attempting to reverse sounds like metallic clicking (kinda like the smoke puffer or the engine drawbar if you fiddle with it) and a louder-than-usual buzzing noise. What appears to be the problem? How can it be fixed? If the issue is minor and solvable at home, what do I do? If the issue is NOT minor, do I send it to the service station? 

Thanks again as well!

Attachments

Images (4)
  • 681 Front PU 1
  • 681 Front PU 2
  • 681 Rear PU 1
  • 681 Rear PU 2
Videos (1)
681
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

TheRWBYRailfan posted:
ADCX Rob posted:

Lubricate the axles & side rods(Mobil 1) and the worm/worm wheel with grease(Lucas Red 'N' Tacky #2 works great here). The noise is from the very odd sine wave of the transformer, and will go away with a conventional transformer.

CropperCaptureFam201809-42-02 PM[1]

CropperCaptureFam201809-44-07 PM[1]

Can I use the standard Lionel maintenance kit in place of those?

Absolutely! It is just that the 6-62927 Lubrication and Maintenance Kit is marked up heavily in price and the Mobile 1 and Red n Tacky #2 Grease are more available and more cost effective.

bmoran4 posted:
TheRWBYRailfan posted:
ADCX Rob posted:

Lubricate the axles & side rods(Mobil 1) and the worm/worm wheel with grease(Lucas Red 'N' Tacky #2 works great here). The noise is from the very odd sine wave of the transformer, and will go away with a conventional transformer.

CropperCaptureFam201809-42-02 PM[1]

CropperCaptureFam201809-44-07 PM[1]

Can I use the standard Lionel maintenance kit in place of those?

Absolutely! It is just that the 6-62927 Lubrication and Maintenance Kit is marked up heavily in price and the Mobile 1 and Red n Tacky #2 Grease are more available and more cost effective.

Well thats good, I already have the maintenance kit

I'd be surprised if it was the e-unit in this case. In the video, it reverses positively, and only when it is supposed to. Voltage seems to be getting to the motor, too. You can hear it "cogging" as these motors do under a heavy load at low speed. So my thought is that the problem is mechanical - something is binding, but only when the loco runs in reverse.

Pennsylover posted:

If lubrication does not help, the next step is to look at the e-unit.  The e-unit drum and/or contact fingers may need to be cleaned or replaced. 

Dale

Running my Dad's 681.

nickaix posted:

I'd be surprised if it was the e-unit in this case. In the video, it reverses positively, and only when it is supposed to. Voltage seems to be getting to the motor, too. You can hear it "cogging" as these motors do under a heavy load at low speed. So my thought is that the problem is mechanical - something is binding, but only when the loco runs in reverse.

Welp I lubricated yet nothing changed (apart from more sparks under the PU rollers. For the "uneducated" runners out there like me, please define what "e-unit drum and/or contact fingers" are to me and how to clean then please. Pictures too, if possible.

All the original service documents are available online:

http://olsenstoy.com/searchcd2a.htm

You would want to look at the cousin of the 681, the 671, to get full diagrams, but double check the parts list for the 682:

http://olsenstoy.com/671-52.htm

http://olsenstoy.com/681.htm

They also have a section on e-units. Your 681 should use the 100-25 e-unit:

http://olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=615

 

There are also some youtube videos that discuss e-unit rebuilding:

Last edited by bmoran4

The e-unit is internal, so before you look at that, try things you can get to from the outside. Working from my hunch that it is a binding issue...

Make darn sure that there are no foreign objects jammed under the engine. Magnetraction picks up the darndest things.

Remove the side rods and try running it again. This will reduce you to two wheel drive, but will eliminate the rods as a possible source of binding (may want to take a photo first, so you get the linkage installed the right way when you put it back on).

If it does the same thing with no rods on, check for side-to-side an/or up-and-down play in the drive wheels. There should be very little of either; play may indicate worn out bearings. Also, make sure that the backs of the wheels do not rub on the frame of the loco (this is a common problem with these worm-driven engines, though I would expect that to happen in forward rather than reverse.)

I don't really suspect the pickup rollers. Your engine seems to be getting power just fine, even with the wear. If they were the problem, I would expect the engine to lose power under a heavy load, but yours doesn't seem to do that.

nickaix posted:

The e-unit is internal, so before you look at that, try things you can get to from the outside. Working from my hunch that it is a binding issue...

Make darn sure that there are no foreign objects jammed under the engine. Magnetraction picks up the darndest things.

Remove the side rods and try running it again. This will reduce you to two wheel drive, but will eliminate the rods as a possible source of binding (may want to take a photo first, so you get the linkage installed the right way when you put it back on).

If it does the same thing with no rods on, check for side-to-side an/or up-and-down play in the drive wheels. There should be very little of either; play may indicate worn out bearings. Also, make sure that the backs of the wheels do not rub on the frame of the loco (this is a common problem with these worm-driven engines, though I would expect that to happen in forward rather than reverse.)

I don't really suspect the pickup rollers. Your engine seems to be getting power just fine, even with the wear. If they were the problem, I would expect the engine to lose power under a heavy load, but yours doesn't seem to do that.

As far as I know the pickup rollers are not pickup up any unwanted obscenities. They do spark alot now that I gave it some oil (Is that good or bad? Or just normal for a 681?) but nothing is different. It can handle some long loads but

Thank you for the advice on the side rods! I'll see if the binding issue is a problem. If possible, can you link me to something that'll help remove the rods (and later proper re-installation) or will just screwing them off do the trick?

you also can have a motor problem I have seen exactly that with my dual motor old Lionel  diesel   engine runs perfect in forward but not in reverse , I have had to polish the computer with real fine emery paper over and over until it look and feels like a mirror ,plus polish the brushes as sometime also the brushes will wear on a 45 or so degree angle and that need to be flat no angled taper or the motor will have problems running in reverse. actually this can happen with any ac motor.. 

also you need to make sure there is no carbon between the segments on the armature computer you can easily clean the carbon out with a tooth  pick.

let  us know how you make out!  

Also follow Rob's advice and remove that motor, and note if its mounting screws were loose.

Check the motor shaft for excessive play. If a thrust bearing in the motor housing is missing, damaged, assembled in the wrong order, or lacking lubrication; it can bind in one direction. Both armature bearing assemblies need to be lubricated.

671motor

(It looks like the two views at the bottom are reversed from what's in the text)

Dave

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 671motor

It's sometimes hard trying to figure out what is wrong with the engine running on the track.  As a newbie just finishing my first post-war restoration (including a rebuild of the e-unit), I would try and take the engine to a table/bench and turn it upside down on some towels for protection and, unless you have a spare transformer, bring the CW-80 over and attach some leads and clips to the output posts and clip the ground lead to the frame and then touch the positive to the rollers and see how the motor and gears run and if anything is binding. Each time you remove and re-touch the positive lead to the rollers, the e-unit should change between forward, neutral and reverse and you should be able to tell if anything is binding. You might also be able to tell where the sound is coming from in reverse mode and narrow the problem down.  

https://ogrforum.com/...08#86043178689815008

I also have to agree with Rob that the CW-80 can be problematic. I have one on my test track and the 2026 I was restoring did not play well with it, but once I put it on my main track powered with a Z-4000, it ran like a champ. So, if you can get borrow another transformer, I would try that as well.

 

TheRWBYRailfan posted:
As far as I know the pickup rollers are not pickup up any unwanted obscenities. They do spark alot now that I gave it some oil (Is that good or bad? Or just normal for a 681?) but nothing is different. It can handle some long loads but

Thank you for the advice on the side rods! I'll see if the binding issue is a problem. If possible, can you link me to something that'll help remove the rods (and later proper re-installation) or will just screwing them off do the trick?

It's not the pickup rollers which collect obscenities (darn? really?) but the wheels. They are magnetized, and ferrous objects (pins, screws, tacks, etc.) can get jammed between the wheels and the frame. It's quite possible for something to be in there in such a way that the wheel slides past when running forward, but grabs in reverse.

I have bad luck with oil on rollers. It can be an insulator and leads to more arcing as the current passes through it. Find some aerosol "electrical contact cleaner" (formerly sold as "tv tuner cleaner"), spritz it in there, spin the rollers a few times, and wipe off the excess. You'll want to use a piece of paper or something under the assembly so the engine doesn't get covered in contact cleaner overspray. Sparking can also be due to oxidation on the track, so make sure that is clean. It's hard if not impossible to totally eliminate sparking, though; and anyway, I've never found it to affect operation of the engine, certainly not to the extent you're experiencing.

The rods are held on by little hex bolts, just unscrew them. It's a standard size, maybe 3/16" ? (Mine is packed away right now, so I can't check).

Last edited by nickaix

Add Reply

Post
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×