adding tvs and breakers post war trans.

What power supply are you using?

I apologize beforehand---but are your breakers set in trip mode already??

Have you reset and tried?

I used a Lionel PW 1033 reading 15.1 volts on the load side.  I got a great spark, and my shorting wire almost melted, but the breaker never tripped. If you see my photo, it is wired as Dale H suggested.    thanks for your quick response.  Mike

It never will trip your breakers. The 1033 can't deliver 10 amps. Close, but not quite, and its internal breaker will trip first.

The breakers cant be reset until they trip. They are just like the ones on the MTH Z1000. You only reset them after they trip.  thanks for your help.  Mike

Should I go with a less amp breaker? I only was making this breaker board ( as per Dale H ) to protect myself and family, using post war equipment.

It all depends on what you are trying to protect... the output of a 1033 won't pose a threat to you or the family typically. The breakers are to protect the transformer and wiring(not the trains), the TVSs are to protect components that are sensitive to voltage spikes(could be trains - with electronic circuit boards, or any equipment). 

Should I go with a less amp breaker? I only was making this breaker board ( as per Dale H ) to protect myself and family, using post war equipment.

I would think that any dead short would trip a breaker before melting a wire, weather its for general lighting, power to switches, or any accessory.

Most of the breakers I have looked at have a fairly long trip time until you get to about 200%-300%-400% or so of rated current. At that amount of current their trip times are down to a second or less. At their rated current, some of them can take up to an hour to trip. I think some folks have gone with a lesser amperage breaker for this reason. However, I'm not an expert, this is just what I have determined from others here and looking at breaker specs.

 

I will also add that I am not familiar with any of the postwar equipment or transformers, I have only command control with the modern Lionel PH-180's that have very fast breakers. Difficult to use with conventional only operation though. I also use the PSX-AC's which are a bit pricey, but trip faster than the PH-180's and include surge protection. These are probably overkill for postwar equipment and with 12 of them would be quite expensive. Many folks here are using postwar transformers and trains with newer breakers, so I'm sure there will be a solution to your problem. Dale H will probably be along with some suggestions.

Which is why you need to size the breakers for the circuits/wiring you are trying to protect.  You have 10 amp breakers that are feeding current to wiring that can't handle 10 amps(in this case even less).

90 watts is the input. The 1033 is rated at ~65 watts output continuous, about 4, maybe 4.5 amps at best, with short duration loading to maybe 7-7.5 amps.

Thanks, I didn't know. I know very little about the pre/postwar stuff. I just found a picture of one and it said 90 watts on the faceplate, so that's what I went by.

Keep in mind, the TW output is akin to the 1033/1044, ~65 watts output continuous, about 4, maybe 4.5 amps at best from any combination of binding posts. It would seem you are using heavier wire than the original poster.

The wire used is 16AWG.  My goal building this breaker board, was to protect ALL of the layout including switches, city street lighting, track, and anything hooked up to various post war ( 1033 & ZW) and modern MTH ( Z500 & Z1000) transformers. The MTH's have a built in breaker on the side and I think the TIU is also protected. I would like to protect against any dead shorts. Would in-line fuses be better?

Fast blow fuses are fast, as stated in their description. After a discussion here, I tested a Lionel 1.8 amp aux power transformer (6-32923 current, modern model) that has an internal breaker against a 2 amp fast blow fuse. Fuse blew first every time, I tried it 2 or 3 times, I think. I forget how long the internal breaker took, but it was quite a bit longer. I will try to find the info on how long it took the internal breaker.

 

I found the thread, FWIW. The internal breaker was only 1-2 seconds, not bad. It auto reset though. Not actually quite a bit longer as I was thinking, but still longer.

 

Transformer vs Fuse

I think that test will kill the fuse 10 times out of 10.  I have a 2A breaker on my workbench test setup.  I just tried three 3A fast-blow fuses with the transformer at various power settings, in every case the fuse went and the breaker remained closed.  The thermal breakers require a few seconds before they'll go unless it's really a massive overload.

 

 

Can anyone recommend a specific fuse or quick breaker that I could rate according to the load (part #s please) Mouser Electronics has billions and billions to choose from. Voltage AC ?,  amps ? ( depending on what I would be wiring)  I would just like to change a fuse or re-set a breaker, rather than fry something.  I would set it up like my house wiring, where each circuit or individual layout component ( street lights, switches, other accessories, etc. is protected with it's own, rated to fit the need, fuse.

I also use the PH-180's with PSX-AC's, this is good to know, and pretty impressive as well. The PH-180's are very fast. The PSX-AC's are only set to their 8 amp setting, but they trip before the PH-180's.

I think it might be a good time to writeup a howto on protecting transformer outputs and the associated wiring...

That's very interesting, I never thought of the A-U terminals making any difference. In checking the "in phase" with two or more trans., you must be very careful. I just purchased two new MTH Transformers, and they are out of phase with one another (change the plug? ) My old 1033s may not even be working as they should. I will try with the ZWs. thanks Dale for your help.

You can see by the photos, that the wiring is correct.

Dale is absolutely 100% right on the A_U theory. I switched the leads and the breaker popped in about 1.5 seconds. Of course I used a tested 1033 this time.

I am learning something new every day. At my age, this is great. Thanks for all "Youuns" help (Midwest lingo)

I like this forum so much, I am going to become a premium member and support the cause.

That's good to know, I did not think a 1033 would trip a 10 amp breaker, much less that fast.

I'm old and still learning a lot here also, that's why I signed on a couple years ago. I also learn something every day around here, and get a lot of help too.

 

I am also surprised (and impressed) by the faster trip times of the breakers. That's seems much better than stated in their spec sheets. Experimenting like that is also a learning experience and also enjoyable. I'm gonna have to get some of those breakers now and do some experimenting around here. I have my track power covered, but there are a few other places around here I could sure use a few of them.

Dale, I plan to hook two KW'S to Mike's device. I also have an LW I plan on using. Should I use a lower amp breaker for the LW?

I took a Potter & Brumfield CS2190N 10A breaker and stuck it directly across the output of a 1033 at full throttle.  The internal breaker did not trip, but the P&B breaker tripped in about 3 seconds.  The 6A P&B of the same type tripped in about 1/2 the time.  The internal breaker in the 1033 takes about 5 seconds with a direct short to trip, and it clicks on and off.

 

A second 1033 exhibits almost identical results.

Dale H or gunrunnerjohn,

Did any of you guys take any amp readings when the breakers tripped, just curious? I don't have any old transformers to test with. The specs on those must be a tad on the conservative side.

Thanks Dale,

 

Between 10 and 15 gets me in the ball park. I had a couple things on an order at Digi-Key from a few days ago so I added a couple of the P&B breakers and submitted the order. I just don't have much to test them with in the way of transformers.

 

By the time the 1033 gets to 10A or more, the voltage is way down, it'll only get there on a short circuit.  For the 1033, I'd recommend an external breaker of no more than 6A, I'd prefer 5A but they seem a bit harder to find. 

 

The KW will put out maybe 150 watts at a useful voltage, so Dale's 10A breaker is about right for those.  Of course, if you have a circuit with lower current requirements, I recommend the lowest value breaker that will give you some headroom and still protect the circuit.  If you have something drawing 2 amps and want to protect that circuit, I'd be considering a 3 to 4 amp breaker for the circuit.

 

The thing to always keep in mind is the older post-war transformers were all rated on input power.  You have to figure maybe 80-85% efficiency, and that's at full voltage.  When you cut down the output voltage, you also cut down the total wattage available.  Modern transformers are typically rated on output wattage.  For instance, the KW at 190 watts will not give you the same output power as the Lionel PowerHouse 180 brick at the same voltage.

 

 

I'm going to save this thread and the other one currently going with similar info also. Lots of good info in both places.

 

I have a 3-5-7 & 10amp on the way along with my other stuff from Digi-Key. Placed the order last night about 5:30, got an email about 7:30 it had been shipped. Wouldn't be surprised if it shows up in the mailbox tomorrow. I'm still impressed with that place.

Dumb question. After you hook all the tranformers to the breaker device do you tie the commons together. Obviously they would be phased first.

Personally, I always recommend proper phasing of the transformers, even if you don't think they'll be connected.

Still, should I connect the grounds from the three transformers together?

GRJ, Digi-Key comes through again, parts came in today's mail!

 

Personally, I do.

 

before or after they go through the breakers?