Advice Needed On Scaler Versus Gauger

I know that Lionel uses the new Legacy system for most of it's newer products. Don't know if Lionel Legacy or TMCC will work with DCC.

DCC might be an MTH only thing in S scale.

One comment about the size of your layout is you have a bit more space in your room then I have and I am running mainly O gauge trains, with an A.F. 2 rail track on the inside of my O gauge tracks.

Lee Fritz

Hi Classy,

NPS (North Penn S Gaugers) use both Hi-Rail and Scale on our modular layout (American Models Track).  Finding a particular engine in S Gauge (hi-rail) may be difficult, finding it in S Scale may be very difficult.  American Models does offer a very limited amount of engines with scale wheels and couplers. 

Standard AF/Flyonel and old S Helper can be converted.  However, S gauge engines are very sensitive to track irregularities - things that wouldn't bother S gauge will derail S Scale.  Also you can't use more then 1% grade on elevated track - granted this is with brass engines - don't know if others are similarly affected.

Yes the Legacy works with a variety of command systems; TMCC and DCC as well as standard transformer control.

One of our members is doing a huge S Scale layout that is absolutely beautiful and prototypical DCC.  Most of his engines are brass, but all converted to DCC.

Hope it helps.

Since the introduction of the SD70's several years ago, Legacy is DCC compatible.  You don't have a million CV's as in a Tsunami decoder, but there is basic DCC functionality to satisfy most DCC operators.

As to MTH's DCC compatibility, we'll know soon, but it is present in any Proto-3 O scale  or HO locomotives.

At this point in time, I would suggest going HiRail and use Kadee couplers.  Brooks Stover does this to great effect on his BC&G:

I've yet the see anyone complain about the rail height (AM track) or deep flanges in his articles published in Model Railroader or Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette.

95% of the time you're going to have to purchase Kadees if you were to go the full scale route anyway.  With Hirail, you'll have access to a slightly wider range of locomotives and won't have to cough up the extra dough to convert the wheels (like I did) on the likes of the Lionel SD70's and ES44's.

While traditional S and a fair amount of HiRail stuff will go around a 20" curve, I would suggest 27" radius as a minimum.  This is roughly equivalent to 18" radius in HO and will handle most equipment, scale or HiRail.

Rusty

I have an S gauge layout That operates both high rail and scale equipment reliably. The track is MTH .138 profile. This is the lowest profile that will allow reliable operation of original Gilbert equipment. The profile of the rail, while higher than .100 or .125 is correct so scale wheels operate fine. The challenge is the turnouts. They are readily available in .125 or smaller rail. AM makes #5 turnouts with their .148 rail that can be mated to the MTH rail. The AM turnouts require modification to allow scale wheels to operate reliably. I elected to have all my turnouts hand built with the MTH rail. Almost all the turnouts are #6 and #8 except the freight yard at #5.

Track radius (and clearance) depends on what you want to operate. I chose 30" as my minimum as a compromise since the room was not very large. I tried 36" but could not make the track plan work.  Almost all engines made will run on 30" except some of the River Raisin and another boutique manufacturers scale brass. The layout accommodates up to the scale 80' AM passenger cars (their standard ones are 72'.) The trackside clearances will not accommodate modern prototype freight such as 89' high profile freight cars. That was a design decision on my part. We used the Big Boy for engine clearances as it is oversize for S.

The ruling grade is a 2.5% 250" long grade with a 36" radius 90 degree curve. All curves have easements and superelevation. All the engines with traction tires can pull 15 Gilbert freight cars up this grade without working hard. The scale engines need to be operated as per prototype as MU. This is really easy to do with Legacy. Two scale wheeled American Models PA units double headed will pull 6 AM passenger cars up the grade. Eight cars would likely require a 3rd engine.

The layout is designed to run with Legacy along with the Lionel LCS. Track power is two ZW-L's. So far there are no S gauge DCS engines, we will see if one shows up from MTH this month. DCC could be added but I left it out since I have no DCC engines. If I buy a Brass engine I will put TMCC and Railsounds in it.

I have posted pictures of the layout over the past 4 moths, you should be able to find them from my profile.

I am a S Gauge person with big flanges and big couplers and all.  The one big thing in my world is choices and options.  You can find endless choices to have on your layout.  Things made from the 1940's to the present.  Also, the price is from inexpensive to expensive depending on your budget or wishes.

With S Scale you have limited choices by comparison and price is high by comparison too. Lionel and MTH know that S Scale people are less than 15% of the market in S and plan their product introductions with this in mind.  S Gauge products from these producers goes out of the box and onto the tracks.  Scale users have to buy scale wheels, couplers, and adapt them before they go on the tracks.

Track options for S Gauge can be cheap by using Gilbert track to expensive with modern producers.  

Look into both options carefully examining what you want to achieve in comparison with your experience in O.   

I like to use math to help me "visualize" roughly what different types of equipment will require for curve radius. It helps because I spent many years in O and HO and I sort of have a feel for what will work and what won't. Example, small engines and 40-50ft rolling stock will typically run on 18" in HO. The simple formula ((18*87)/64)=24.47 will get you in the general ballpark of what radius you will need.

*Important point - Radius requirements don't have anything to do with Scale vs. High Rail flanges. With the exception that most High Rail engines are built with compromises to help them negotiate tighter curves. Example: Blind drivers on steam engines and swinging pilots on diesels. You could make the same modifications to a scale engine and it would operate on the same curve radius as its High Rail counterpart. 2 Rail O scalers have been doing this for many decades. Conversely, if you have a High Rail engine with all drivers flanged or fixed pilots and body mounted couplers it will take the same wider curve radius that a scale engine would need. The size of the wheel flange doesn't dictate radius...

This is my biggest pet peeve about S. Unless you want to build hybrid closed frog turnouts (Link to turnout how to) with a rail large enough for High Rail (Code .125 and up) you will need to choose one or the other.

I personally chose scale. I wanted a larger version of HO, not a smaller version of 3 rail O. I don't run any American Flyer either. I also like the look of code 83 and 100 rail much better. Not to mention that there are very few High Rail turnouts available. There is a much wider variety in scale.

Think about what type of equipment you want, what kind of railroad you want, research what is available and make your decision. Example: My favorite diesel is the EMD GP30. It was only done once and that was in S scale brass. Things like that helped me make up my mind.

Good luck.

I think it's somewhat instructive to know that when American Models first introduced their steam passenger sets (Pacific and five 72' passenger cars,) the included track had 27" radius curves.  As did the Superliner sets.  The Trailer Hauler sets (Baldwin S12, 3-unit spine car, caboose) the track included 24" radius curves.  It didn't matter if you ordered them as HiRail or Scale.

So, if one is doing scale one could probably squeak by with 24" radius, although I still would recommend at least 27" radius.  I use 33" minimum on my mainline and 29" on the passing sidings.  I've been able to rum pretty much everything within reason on it.  A friend's River Raisin NKP Berkshire will make it around the 33" radius, but my SP MT-4 4-8-2 won't.  The MT-4's also not very fond of the #5 switches in my yard. 

Now, here's a link to a long-forgotten and gone S Scale railroad by Dave Lull of DSL Shops.  According to his site, he had 22" minimum radius on his mainline, so that limited what locomotives he could use:

http://www.dslshops.com/layout1.htm

But that shortcoming was well compensated for with his scenery and structures.

Rusty

Rusty, thanks for that link. It is an amazing layout I had not seen. Also thanks for the comments on the River Raisin engines, I was thinking of trying to find one of the NKP Berks. It sounds like I should be able to run it. 

Attached are two more pictures.

This one shows track with guard rails on a bridge. The track is MTH flex, the guard rails are Micromark code 125. It is almost impossible to see the difference in rail height but we could not get the highrail wheels to work with the code 125. Code 100 and 83 are quite a bit different and do provide a much different overall appearance of the track. 

 

This one shows the frog, wing and guardrails on a #6 turnout behind the caboose. These are open frog but allow both scale wheels and high rail wheels to operate with so far 100% reliability. The devil is in the details of both the turnout construction and precisely accurate wheel gauging of the highrail wheel sets. Also note there is no ballast above the ties. We found the slightest bit of ballast near the rails caused operating issues with the highrail wheels. Cleanup after ballasting was time consuming. Note the Legacy PRR diesel is smoking nicely  

Thank you to all who replied.  Very good information and a couple of things I did not think of to consider. As mentioned by a poster I need to figure out what is important to me.  Once again thanks!!

I like the fact that you started out with noting that going Scale or Hi-Rail is not a better or worse, just a choice in what one wants to do. I think it really depends on what era you want to model. If you're going towards the steam era, or even the steam & early diesel period, you will have lots more selection with Hi-Rail. There's also a lot more track choices ranging from ACG tinplate track to FasTrack and flex track options too. If you're doing modern period, at this time, you will find more variety for that time period in Scale manufacturers.

traindavid posted:

I like the fact that you started out with noting that going Scale or Hi-Rail is not a better or worse, just a choice in what one wants to do. I think it really depends on what era you want to model. If you're going towards the steam era, or even the steam & early diesel period, you will have lots more selection with Hi-Rail. There's also a lot more track choices ranging from ACG tinplate track to FasTrack and flex track options too. If you're doing modern period, at this time, you will find more variety for that time period in Scale manufacturers.

I don't want to be argumentative, but I don't agree with your statements. It heavily depends on your perspective and what you like. If you like AF, then yeah there are a lot of variations of the same steam engines out there. But if you like scale models AF engines probably aren't going to cut it. Also, there is a much wider variety of different steam engines that has been made in S scale. Fewer numbers for sure, but more variety if that is important. Then there is the topic of track... Scale turnouts available from a few different mfgs. in a variety of sizes and styles. Far more than are available in Hi Rail. Since Tom quit making his turnouts I am not aware of a numbered Hi-Rail turnout, just radiused curve replacement turnouts. Those make for nasty 'S' curves when you try to make cross-overs or parallel siding.  Of course

I'm not trying to argue opinions here. I believe what I said to be fact. You can check me if you like by spending some time researching on the NASG.org site.

Let's make sure we are giving the new folks facts not opinions and let them make their own minds up.

Scale track and numbered turnouts are readily available from several suppliers. It really is unfortunate for the high railers that Tom Stoltz quit making his turnouts. Highrail numbered turnouts are available from BK Enterprises in Code 148 to match AM track. I understand they will make them with .138 if the purchaser provides the rail. I had one to test before I decided to have mine made elsewhere.

There are more varieties of steam available in S scale but they are limited production and relatively expensive. I expect new designs will continued to be offered. Modern production highrail steam is the Mikado, several varieties of Pacific, a streamlined NYC Hudson, several varieties of Northerns, the Challenger, the Berkshire, the Docksider, and if 1/60th is acceptable the BigBoy. I doubt there will be any new steam engine wheel arrangements in high rail produced and delivered to purchasers in the next 5 years. Hope one of the manufacturers proves me wrong.

Jonathan, your posting hints strongly at a scale preference--nothing wrong with that, but I was trying to give an even-handed analysis--and also from a budget standpoint. It's hard to beat, price-wise, the huge used ACG merchandise out there, and that can be modified to be different. Both sides have good things going for them, I just wish they could shake hands and agree to disagree! Tom, that layout looks amazing!

I'm not interested in the older American Flyer. Let's say that I am interested in going the scale route.  With body mounted couplers I can get away with a 27" radius?  But on the down side I can not run the newer Lionel offerings unless I change out the wheels.  Will the newer Lionel  run on DC and DCC  even though they are a AC loco?    I can not spend for the $1,000  steam locomotives in S scale.  That is why I'd have to consider the Lionel offerings.. 

Mike

 

Mike, you should be able to do 27" radius with little problems for most equipment.  All of AM's freight cars have body mounted couplers as do MTH's (SHS's) and S Scale America's (DesPlaines Hobbies.)  Full length passenger cars would be a different story with body mounts.  Here's an AM 85' Pullman with body mounted Kadee's sitting on my 27" radius test curve:

With body mounts, these cars will traverse my 33" mainline curves OK, but are less reliable on my 29" radius passing sidings.  I've stuck with the talgo dummy couplers on my AM 75' Budd cars because at this point I see no real advantage to body mounting Kadee's.  Plus, I'd have 24 cars to convert...

As far as Lionel locomotives go, the EMD SD70's and GE ES44's will run on AC, DC, and DCC.  The U33C's will not run on DCC, nor will any of the steam locomotives, but they can't be easily converted to scale anyway.

Bear in mind that they can be finicky on conventional DC.  It depends on the power pack.  Mine run fine on DC from my ancient MRC Controlmaster X or GML Enterprises DC throttle running off an MRC pack, but can gets erratic with some of the newer power packs. 

Lionel worked hard to get the bugs out of DC runnning and post 2013 made locomotives should reflect this.

DCC operation is fine.  I know Lionel debugged the DCC for at least 4 different DCC manufacturers.  I use the MRC Prodigy with no problems.

One thing about the SD70's and ES44's-- The pilots swing:

This is to help these loco's deal with Flyer curves.  The SD70's include hardware to anchor the pilots, the ES44's do not.  Both do include Kadee mounting hardware. I did a post on how to anchor the ES44 pilots HERE.

With the pilots anchored, I'm not sure how well these loco's would do on 27" radius.  Here's an SD70 on my 29" radius:

Still runs without derailing, but is pushing the limits of the Kadee coupler swing on 29" radius.  I think there might be problems on 27" radius.

I hope this information is of some help.

Rusty

 

 

 

Rusty that is a big help.  I do not have a problem with the swinging pilots.  It looks as though if   I go with a 30" radius or a little larger I should be okay.  I appreciate the mentoring I need  it.