Alas, yet another bad smoke unit

Lionel had a run of bad smoke unit fan motors. The USRA Light Mikados were especially hard hit; I think at least a third of them had smoke problems. The good news is, Lionel turned mine around in one day. The bad news is, from Arizona it cost me 35 bucks to send the unit to Lionel. 

Yep, when I sent in my Lionchief+ B&O, it cost me $25; but Lionel turned it around in 1 day.

RickM46

In general, Lionel's smoke units have not been their strong suit, but they have improved vastly from the early JLC days!

BOTH my gray and black JLC challengers had poor performing smoke units out of the box. 

But I am pleased with  the smoke units in my 5344 VL Hudson!

Good news folks but I get awarded a Homer Simpson Doh!!

I sent the Berkshire Pere Marquette to Lionel Customer service on Feb 23 and it arrived back today, March 10; superior warranty service!!  They supplied a new outer box and the loco was in pristine condition.

The stack smoke unit failed as signified by the cabin light blinking 3 times a lot.

In addition, as I was packing the loco for shipment, I discovered a small square piece of plastic in the box where the front truck resides; it was the bushing for one side of the axle which dropped down when picking up the loco.  I sent that to Lionel as well when I packed the loco for shipment with a note.

Cudos to service tech edm/db; he replaced both smoke units (stack and whistle) and the axle.  He is the same tech who fixed the smoke unit in my Lionchief+ B&O.

Now for the Homer Simpson DOH award:

The cause of the smoke unit failures was flooding the motors with smoke fluid.

My bad; I saw somewhere on the forum that you should not load more than 6 drops into this Berkshire unit; I was using the Lionel pipette and loading 1 lines worth which I think is over 16 drops.

I was used to loading up the VL Big Boy with that pipette and it takes the 16 drops easily.

So, now I will have to hone the art of knowing when smoke is leaning out and to pay attention to the smell of batting over heating.

None the less, cudos to Lionel tech edm/db.

http://www.urbandictionary.com...bad&defid=901238

MY DEFINITION of My Bad is:

Sorry, I screwed up, AND I will fix up.

RickM46
This is why I use a needle applicator bottle you can count drops as needed per engines needs.

Yep, I think the needle applicator is the way to go with my smaller locos.

I got spoiled by my VL Big Boy where I have been using the Lionel pipette and dropping an entire line of fluid in each stack, another line in the whistle, and another line in the blow down.  So far, with the BB, I have gotten away with it.  But, I think I will start being more conservative with that too.

As for the Pere Marquette, it will be the needle applicator now and no more than 6 drops.  The owners manual says 10 to 20 drops is OK BUT only when smoke starts waning.

I know exactly when I flooded its motor - it was smoking profusely and I added 1 line of fluid anyway - it stopped working almost instantly --- DOH.

It seems to me that Lionel needs to step up to a KNOWN issue with the smoke units the last couple of years and pay the shipping both ways regardless of the warranty agreement, not to mention the three Legacy units I had to send in so that I would still have an incentive to buy Legacy engines.

The videos on most of the smoke units says 3/4 of the first line on the pipette.

We know that the portion of Lionel customers represented in this forum is but a fraction of the whole, and that not every forum member who has a problem and returns his/her Legacy locomotive takes the time to post the occurrence here. However, what little we do know would appear to indicate that the number of such returns is appreciable.

Given the cost of shipping nowadays, of ensuing repairs, and the intangible cost of potential customer dissatisfaction, would seem to indicate that any additional expenditure in better design evaluation, life testing, production control, and final inspection would be easily justified, as well as unmistakable instructions and warnings of what to do and not do.

Every time I become aware of such an issue reminds me of what used to be a ‘must read book’ when I was learning Quality in industry many moons ago, Phillip Crosby’s “Quality Is Free”.

Alex

I took a couple engines apart just to get a better understanding of how they work, and how much fluid 20 drops really is. It really opened my eyes, and I've got much better at getting their optimum performance since taking a peek.

1. The replacement fiberglass wick works much better than that precut batting stuff.

2. 20 drop really isn't that much when the reservoir is bone dry.

3. Sitting overnight dries up that fluid much more that I would have ever guessed.

4. The needle applicator gives you much better control when adding fluid. "Many" of the engines allow you to get down into the wick to apply the fluid.

5. If the wick is really saturated, it takes a few minutes (3-5 minutes sometimes) to heat up all that fluid to get peak performance from your smoke unit.

6. I no longer add fluid with the smoke unit "ON".  Too many times I killed the smoke output because I assume the fluid crystalized on the resistor as Mike Reagan explained in his video. Been there done that many times.

7. Once that wick is burned because it was dry, it greatly effects the performance of the smoke unit.

I'm NOT saying open up your engine while it's under warranty. I did because I thought I killed the smoke unit in my Legacy AC12 Cab Forward. Round trip shipping from California cost me a small fortune. When I got it open, the batting was bone dry, and burnt. No way did I expect to see that, I was assuming I flooded the entire engine with fluid. I tore the batting apart, removed the burnt portion, and stuffed it back in there. I put 50 drops in that thing, sitting at the bench, just to pre-soak it. Ever since then, that engine will smoke you out of the house when set to max.   

The owners manual for mine said add 20 drops when the unit is new out of the box and then 10-20 after that.  You have to really judge when to refill and how much.

 FWIW,I have a small LED flashlight I use to shine down the stacks of my steamers when in doubt on the smoke fluid.

Provided you don't have pre-existing issues with eyesight, its fairly easy to see if the wicking is wet.

Sometimes the resistor sits right at the bottom of the stack but you can still see the wicking on either side.

When was the last time you burned out a P/W smoke unit? I have four spare unit heat coils that I purchased years ago that never got used because no smoke unit ever broke and needed repair.

I have 2 Atlas diesels ( Bought used ) and smoke unit doesn't work in either but love them both. And not having smoke doesn't really bother me I want smoke all I have to do is break out my 736 and it takes care of that situation for me lol 

OK, I know this is like beating a dead horse.

BUT, I have noticed a similarity in smoke unit characteristics from my VL Big Boy and my Legacy Pere Marquette Berkshire:

I notice that there is a tinge of hot plastic odor after about 8 circuits around my small living room layout - 6' X 7'.  Smoke production seems OK on medium.

That is my dilemma. 

To add or not to add fluid when that plastic odor happens.

I know for sure if you overfill you can kiss the smoke units good bye.

I can't see the wick in my locos.

What??, yes there is a tinge of frustration but I really like the smoke.

RickM46... unless the smoke output is very slight then you add fluid. if smoke is at a good rate and you smell that plastic smell the lack of fluid isn't the issue. start looking for the actual cause.

as to plastic smell only time I smelled that was when the electronic thing a ma jig failed and full voltage to smoke element was applied!!

remember the heating elements glow in a car cigarette lighter this made it look like a piker. but man was it smokin!!

Thanks for the info.

I have the ZW-L and closely monitor amperage using its ammeter.

While the smoke units are set to medium, at startup, the amperage is 3.75 for about 4 seconds, then it drops to 2.25 for 3 seconds, then drops to 1 amp and stays there.

Since I just got the unit back from service, I think the odor may be due to Lionel smoke fluid.  To note the amperage, I did a short test run a few minutes ago and now smoke production is definitely anemic.  I will wait till the unit cools and add Megasteam using a needle applicator and add 7 drops.  These drops are definitely smaller than those that come out of an eyedropper.

Warranty or not I remove the top access cap -- gently -- and the funnel -- gentle twist and pull up -- and apply fluid directly to the chamber stack. Getting the fluid to flow along the nearly horizontal funnel path channel by adding at the stacks on top of the shell doesn't work. So fluid can't get to the wick and also reduces fan airflow through the resistor/wick chamber. Result on my Legacy GP9 was burned wick followed by dead fan although the fan may have failed on it's own.

 Funnel

Dead Smoke Unit Legacy

Burned wick material

Smoke goes directly into stack on this Legacy with smoke unit that still works

In 2014 I bought 4 Lionel Legacy diesels and 3 conventional steam (2 of which were offered in the Legacy mode as well). Since I run in conventional mode I soon found that the diesels could not run fast enough on my small layout to produce smoke except with the first fill up of fluid. When I tried to refill the results was the 3 blinking lights in the cab. Charles Ro fixed them under warranty but I did not try smoke on again. But the 3 steamers do not seem to be over sensitive to refill and still smoke.

  I have the Legacy NYC 4-6-0 on order and want to preorder the PRR B6sa. Am I going to have the 3 blinking light syndrome with these Legacy steamers? MTH does not seem similar problems so there must be a design defect. Have several TMCC locos that smoke well in conventional mode. Why can't Legacy locos be made to smoke in conventional mode? 

I am sort of in the same boat; my steamer just arrived from Lionel service to fix a flooded smoke unit and now I have to experiment to figure out how much fluid to add and when.  My plan is:

1. Run the engine enough to get the smoke units up to temp.

2. Observe how much smoke is being produced; if anemic, use the Megasteam needle dispenser to add 6 drops after a cooldown.

3. Observe the smoke effect to determine if that was enough.

4. I think the needle dispenser releases smaller drops.