Anyone hear anything about ZW-L?

Allan, I think Mike is great. I've been a customer of his since the TAS days. Sadly, he wrings them out AFTER they are designed.

And Allan, THIS HAS GOTTA BE A KIDS TOY. It is the traditional interface to running trains. Handhelds are great, but they're only part of the story.

That being said, I think it's important to let little kids run the trains. And the more intrusive supervision they have, the less fun they frequently have. Johnny, don't do this, you're doing that wrong, Sara stop pushing the button, etc. If you want them to love the hobby and get involved in the hobby, you can't always being on top of them and "correcting" them. You have to cut some slack -- which DOES NOT mean no supervision. You just have to decide what's important.

In fact some of the absolutely DUMBEST things I've seen have been done by adults. On my layout!!

BTW, an interesting topic might be how old were most of the Forum members when they started with trains. And was there constant supervision? I suspect not and I know there certainly wasn't in my case.

So I'm back to the question -- it might be neat, it might have great gauges, but will it stand up to the kids? I think that's a very fair question.

Gerry

Allen
It sounds like you almost had another one of those "GOTTA HAVE IT"
moments with the transformer.
Larry

28 pounds?  That is a lot of transformer.  Hopefully the dealers send them USPS or FEDEX Ground as UPS and FEDEX Air think that delivering packages is a shot-put competition.  

I've got one of order also.  Just couldn't resist the "look" and the power.

Actually, it's a VERY fair question.  And while I greatly value Lionel's participation on this forum, I think Jon's earlier comment is a bit naive, as stuff coming out of the factory half a world away may not necessarily have been built "as originally designed".  We seem to live in an era where factories produce items with lots of corners being trimmed/cut here and there... like when the earliest 180-watt bricks were produced with inverted polarity. 

But let's hope that's not the case here.

David

If I remember right didn't the newer ZW with 2 180 watt bricks are around 28 lbs. Also if you purchased that set with 2 more 180 watt bricks you come to $700.00 or more at list price. So,  one might say the ZW L weighs less and may be cheaper???

First:  It is not a child's toy, no matter how you want to view it.  You'll note that I said proper supervision and instruction is necessary if you're going to let a young child fuss around with this transformer (and many other train items for that matter).  

Yes, only you can determine the level of instruction and supervision needed, and that will vary from one child to another depending on age, attention span, parental guidance in other areas of the child's life, and a dozen other factors.  But if someone is standing by and watching a child yanking the handles back and forth, fooling with the connections, or some other such thing, the ADULT present is at fault--perfect example of a child who needs to be started out with a basic starter set transformer and instructed on its proper use, as well as in caring for the trains in general.  If the child is too young for that, he/she is too young to be playing with electrically powered trains or other devices.

But, you're absolutely right:  There are some dumb adults out there...far too many in my view, and Mike spends time trying to anticipate what the dumbest of the dumb might do to render the unit inoperable.  You can't fault design, engineering, or quality control at this point because there have been no reports of problems related to the new ZW-L, and some of those kinds of things only surface after long-term use in the field (as is the case with many products).

Chances are, the vast majority of ZW-L owners will have far less of a problem with their $700 transformer than they are apt to have with one of the locomotives on their roster that cost twice as much.

>>>The ZW-L is definitely a beast and should be a serious power supply for those running

Legacy & TMCC.  For runners like me using DCS, I can't see the investment cost at this point.  The transformer is super cool however.........

I still say its a nice piece for those who enjoy hanging around their power supply.

IMO, voltage/amps readout should have been visible on the legacy controller screen.

Joe

The Postwar ZW on the left will be replaced by the Modern ZW on the right.  That one will be replaced by the ZW-L.  I'm glad it's finally on the way.

This think kind of makes me wish I still did anything of a TMCC nature.

Allan, we totally disagree. Our regulators only want "children" of 14 years or so to use this type of equipment. The neutered generation. How old were you when you started using "toy" trains? In fact, how old were most Forum members when they started?

I agree with the need for supervision. But jerking the handles is part of the fun, and unless it becomes extreme, I will not stop a child who comes to play with the trains on my layout from doing that. And the POSTWAR ZW HANDLES IT. It was apparently DESIGNED FOR THAT TYPE OF USE. I don't know what would happen with a Z4K (I have 3 of them, but they are not used on the child table), but suspect that they could handle it.

BTW, if a child wants to mess around with the connecting wires, that is something that gets stopped. On the other hand, adults do the dumbest things................

And I would still like George to abuse the ZW-L and REPORT ON IT. That's what you guys are for.

Gerry

I was just reading all of these posts, and I think Gerry has VERY valid points. Allen, I'm shocked at almost all of your comments on this subject. Sure every kid is supervised if they were to be around my trains. Sure I don't think I know any little monsters who would do anything damaging out of the blue just for kicks. With that said, I found out about the PWC ZW stripping handles the hard way when a supervised and well meaning 5 year old in a flash did that "zap zap" of the two outter handles like he was landing a Buck Rogers ship. This kind of thing DOES happen in the real world. It's like that whole postwar ZW look was designed as a big bulls eye and draws every kid to always want to do that.

I too hope that George will abuse the ZW-L and report on it. Gerry has it dead on. That is what you guys are for, and what I'd hope we all expect from a real review.

Sam

Allen, I very honestly do not mean this post to nit-pick or look for a fight, and certainly not pointed at any brand either. What do you mean by the "operator-induced glitches" that "cause of many if not most repair issues"? I just don't get the above comment. Have you not read about any of the posts here about the crazy things that happen to these trains right out of the box? Poor Chinese QC issues, etc? Sure, I have no doubts that Lionel, MTH, whoever would make any of these issues right, but the operator is the one who will "cause of many if not most repair issues"?

Sam

I agree with most of the comments here.  I was 7 years old when I received my first Lionel O-27 train set.  Still remember it well -- straight out of the 1966 catalog.  I never got around to getting a ZW back then, but everything I did get was built to withstand a lot.  I wasn't the roughest kid, but once Mom and Dad knew I could manage things OK, I was off and running into this wonderful hobby without gobs of overly-doting supervision.

Today's regulatory agencies are a big joke -- and are largely over-glorified guidelines looking for obscure problems to solve.  I'm very much in favor of child-safety being a priority, but I think it's a bit ridiculous that we've magically moved from the nicer toy trains formerly being labeled for children "8 years and older" to now "14 years and older".  Heck... nowadays at 14 (or perhaps a couple of years later), kids' interests are beginning to change, and they may not be thinking "toy trains" again for quite some time.

Let's face it... most corporations nowadays are looking for any reason they can to weasel out of making things to withstand the test of time.  We've slowly -- and sadly -- moved to a disposable society in every facet of our lives.  Just being real here, folks.

David

Sam,

   Maybe I grew up in a more disciplined house hold but our original ZW has never needed repaired, we were taught as young boys how to play with the train set

without damaging it, now that both old ZW's get used with the DCS, the physical wear is even less.  This being said I do hope George puts the equipment thru some hard usage, testing it in every way possible.   Lots of kids use ZW's for conventional running, without damaging the transformers all the time.

PCRR/Dave

That's funny David..at 14 my sons (now in their 40's) were thinking girls, sports and a drivers license. You certainly got that part right. It brought back memories. Trains were way back on the rear burners.

>>>Let's face it... most corporations nowadays are looking for any reason they can to weasel out of making things to withstand the test of time.  We've slowly -- and sadly -- moved to a disposable society in every facet of our lives.  Just being real here, folks. David<<

Electronics won't stand the test of time. These days, its in just about everything..

I'd hang on the that old ZW. With a little care it'll probably provide power for the next three generations.

Joe..

Take out the thought that this is just one brother supporting his kin but Gerry is, IMHO, absolutely correct about getting children involved at an early age and the need for equipment to be safely handled by the same.  Most of us who first watched train operations by older brothers or fathers & observed the handles of Lionel transformers go back and forth very rapidly then did the very same thing.  Won't our children/grandchildren do the same?   Ask any computer manufacturer at what age they want to capture the hearts & minds of their potential consumers knowing that conquest at an early age usually means a continual customer for decades.  Trust me when they reply as soon as they can operate the product which means that for the Nintendo Generation, it's 3 or 4!  

Happy, healthy & prosperous new year to all,

Bill

I expect/know he performed the product review in the appropriate manner for a new item being used in the way it is intended to be used and for the purpose it is intended for.

The truth of the matter is the review report is already written.  I sent the full content of that April issue to our design team yesterday.  No prolonged or aggressive whipping of the handles is included.  He also didn't immerse it in boiling water, drop it from a 42" height (normal layout height),  bury it in a snow bank, or back over it with his car.

Those who are interested in venturing into the "abusing" arena are on their own.  

After reading over the comments on the ZW-L, here are my points I wish to make.  I will also be glad to answer questions. 

Transformers are designed by engineering, and stress tested by engineering.  I accept full responsibility for design, and the quality of the design, and the deliverable.  When the ZW-L is delivered to folks, I am fully confident the ZW-L won't sully DR. ZW's reputation.

We beta test product in the field, and using our internal folks; which includes Mike's team.  By the time beta testing occurs, all operational bugs should be out of the product, and we are looking for validation.  Beta testing provided quite a bit of feedback in which we addressed.  I have been using 3 of the ZW-L's in my design center for over 1.5 years.  In total, we had about 40 units in the qualification process.

The level of testing is complex on a transformer of this class; safety is the big reason.  We design test equipment, and work with the factory to insure the tests are followed.  Our VP of Production and several Lionel QA folks are at the factory on the initial production runs.  Our QA folks are always visiting the factory monitoring the production.  We can't control shipping damage, which happens to our products more often than we would like to see.  But, this is why we have a Customer Service team; to deal with the unfortunate problems that occur.  Our CS team is fantastic.

The ZW-L is late - however is a great product as a result of meticulous efforts which perfected the design - resulting in a long process to get the units shipped.  Time will be needed to show the community the robustness of the product; but the early adopters won't be unsatisfied.

Thank you for that Jon.

 I will be an early adopter shortly as mine just arrived at the place from which I ordered one.  Can't wait!

Thanks for chiming in Jon. I'm sure that you guys have done a great job.

Allan, I'm again surprised by your response. Nobody is asking for the ZW-L to be dropped, driven over, etc, in a product review. There are no prototype rivets to count or paint schemes to follow with this. No sound quality, no motor speed or pulling tests. Unless with his personal experience Jon himself wrote the OGR review, what does George have to "review"? He plugged it in and it made his train run? I'm shocked that you seem out of touch with your reading audience.

Sam

I have seen one in person, its massive and feels solid. It actually makes the postwar ZW feel a bit small

No prolonged or aggressive whipping of the handles is included.  He also didn't immerse it in boiling water, drop it from a 42" height (normal layout height),  bury it in a snow bank, or back over it with his car.

 

Those who are interested in venturing into the "abusing" arena are on their own.

Bet he didn't try to blend it either

Always delighted to surprise you, Sam!  

Chris:

I believe he did want to try the blender test, but the darn thing was just too big. 

And here's my personal summary review:

I have seen the new ZW-L and played with it a bit.  If I needed a new (large) transformer, I would have one on my layout before the end of the first week of the new year.  It's that cool!

For a transformer $700. Thats just plain stupid. I can buy a lot of nice pre-war for that amount of money at York.

Come on Allan. If this hobby were about need, there wouldn't be a magazine.

Jon, I don't know you, but I do have tremendous confidence and faith in Mike. When we talk "Lionel" we talk history even though there were many "Lionels" with different goals and leaders. The ZW from the late 1990's did not do the organization proud. I hope this one does. Even though I do not "need" a large transformer, if it's neat it will be on my list. I do hope you guys have done Lionel proud. And I hope the OGR review tells me something more than (what is it?) amps times volts equals watts.

Gerry

Come on Eddie G

Stop sugar-coating your opinion---that us know what you really think

I think it's more about the stupidity than the money, Eddie...this is a solution in search of a problem. IMHO, of course.

          --Bob Di Stefano

Allan Miller for president!!

I'm still trying to understand what the ZW-L can DO that can't be done by other existing alternatives?  Is this simply a dressed-up, steroidal, expensive AC toy trains power supply that regulates a voltage from 0 to X on four channels, gives meter readings, blows a whistle, rings a bell, shuts down promptly when overtaxed (like our economy), and holds down the table in a strong wind? 

This is reminiscent of a bit of history from my favorite railroad, the Santa Fe.  In Worley's book, Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail, the grand dabblement of this railroad, the collective wisdumb of its engineering, PR, and maintenance (?) staffs in mallet-hysteria of the time is summarized.  To whit..."The historical effect was that, after a suitable period of braggadocio by the PR department, the Santa Fe ostensibly cut its losses, and for that matter, its 1398 4-4-6-2 series, in two and emerged with a nice looking pair of 4-6-2's that lasted a long time and gave good service."

"The 1798's lasted longer, but were eventually bisected...and became a useful pair of Mikados." 

"In the years 1910 and 1911, a veriable fog of hallucination appears to have settled upon the otherwise outstandingly capable mechanical department of the "Atchison"....Pure conjecture is quite insufficient to visualize the thousands of los machinist and boilermaker hours that were doubtlessly wasted to keep the mechanical abortions on the road....The double-Santa Fe's, the huge 3000 Class 2-10-10-2's, which again were weighty enough to keep the Santa Fe at the head of the ":Largest Locomotive In The World" sweepstakes, were right behind the 1398's in being converted to conventional but useful locomotives."

One hopes that Lionel's selection of the 3000 Class 2-10-10-2 as their first Vision Line adventure is not prescient into the power supply realm.

Look, I know and understand the abuse-drill in preparing for the commercial release of a product of this sort.  But, as a guy behind the counter at a LHS, am I really supposed to play out to my customer the Beta-testing, the U/L hurdles, any demos on CD, YouTube, or elsewhere that show that maybe even David Banner was involved in its design and testing?? 

Or am I supposed to tell them why this $1-per-watt outlay is better than an arithmetic alternative...at $1-per-watt...or less? 

And what would be THAT sales spiel??

I hope to find it in the review.

Chris, you wouldn't have Tom Dickson (the Blendtech® guy) drop that on an iPad, would you?    BTW, that's a pretty good trick of holding the Z by what looks to be just the terminal posts on the back.  Well maybe it's just the shell.  

Even though my trains are at this time stationary, I hope that the new Z will fulfill all your hopes, gentlemen.  Just make sure the children don't try to pick it up like Tom.  

Bill

Sadly waiting for the end to the Eagle train wreck.  

It's an improvement with enhancements.

In the Command Control environment, you can use the ZW-L Transformer to run your Conventional locomotives by remote control. Your CAB-2/CAB-1 Remote Controller can control the four individual outputs, each using a unique train (TR) or engine (ENG) ID#. Whistle/horn, bell, and direction commands are available for each output. Plus, you can throw the ElectroCouplers on select Conventional locomotives.

The ZW-L is equipped with three levels of overload protection: dynamic power limiting, fold-back current limit, and circuit breakers.

Originally Posted by ADCX Rob:

I'm still trying to understand what the ZW-L can DO that can't be done by other existing alternatives?

There isn't anything it does that can't be done with other devices but if you're looking for a new piece of equipment that can run 4 trains in a conventional or command environment the ZW-L will do it better at a comparable cost to other new equipment. It would also be much simpler to wire and that would prompt some folks to buy it.

Ron

When I read the ZW-L review written by Bill Schmeelk for the LCCA's The Lion Roars, for which Bill actually opened up the case and went inside the transformer, I was impressed by the quality Lionel put into this unit.  As one example, Bill described the toroidal transformer coil that is silent (no hum), runs cooler and more efficiently and is smaller than the usual block transformer.  Bill notes it is also more expensive.  Personally, I am happy that Lionel is more concerned with quality rather than just putting out another transformer at the lowest possible price and compromising on quality to meet a price point.  With all the belly-aching on this forum about quality issues, it seems a product like this should be welcomed.  Granted, the proof will be in the months and years ahead, but it all starts with the design and this actually looks like a product that was designed to be legendary. 

Allen,

   I do agree, if I needed a new ZW-L I would have one on my layout in short order.

The new transformer looks way cool and has some real nice options and it comes with Legacy up grades.   If I did not have a Z4K already, I would definitely consider this new transformer for my layout. 

PCRR/Dave

Just picked mine up. It's awesome. Think I have a hernia after carrying it to the car.....

The ZW-L is no longer showing on the shipping schedule.  I guess they have been shipped to the dealers.   

Neal Jeter

That thing would make a good anchor for my boat.