Asthma and train smoke?

I'd recommend you check into industrial sized air purifiers.  That will probably be the best solution.  The issue with sucking all the smoke outside is you also suck a lot of money out in the winter or the summer with heat and A/C.

John is on to something.  Could the smoke be going thru your heating vents?..

If so. Try a cabin filter like they use in a car.  Put inline with main vent.  See is that neutralizes the smoke.

Fish aquarium filters ..  They filter water..might be able to make something from them.

If you like her turn off the smoke. Nothing worse than having the feeling of an elephant sitting on your chest.  Basically I have near found a solution. It's just like cigarettes and hangs on everything even cloths and skins. It rises to and when you can't smell it will still be there.

We are all different some more sensitive than others. Asthma kills quick.

In any event for me I couldn't give you one solution that would work other than running them in a bunker. So it depends on how much it affects her. Then remember it doesn't even have to be the smoke but just the smell.

So an easy solution is not to run smoke. The next solution really depends on your wife. It could be as simple as open windows with fans or a case that no matter how much you spend the train room has to go. 

Just remember it's just not the smoke. That is easy to direct outside but the residual hangs around for ever or at least longer that non asthma people would know.

Good luck

If her situation is anything like my wife's you're going to need to give up on the smoke. We can't go to a restaurant that does candles on the tables. Diesel exhaust sets her asthma off. Campfire smoke.

She being able to breathe freely is so much more important than toy train smoke. I also know that feeling of wondering if I can just draw hard enough to get that next breath.....

Just my two cent's worth.

Thanks for your responses.  An industrial purifier and inline filters are great ideas! 

The plain smoke is less irritant than fragrance -- which solves the problem of the scent hanging around too long.  My hobby shop told me to try other brands of smoke fluid -- to see if that helps.  Asthma, agreed, is a serious health issue so I have to find a solution or not run the smoke.

The heat loss is a concern I didn't consider.  You have a point.  But perhaps a high-powered bathroom ceiling vent to the outside will draw some heat into the train room (which I could use) from other parts of the basement in the winter and help remove some moist air to the outside in the summer (along with the smoke), the latter of could make my dehumidifier run less.  The fact that I only run the trains now and then might not make any power consumption a big factor.   I'm most concerned about spending the time and energy on installing such a system and then it doesn't do the trick. 

Lew, I hear you.  My wife used to smoke, though -- cigarette smoke didn't affect her asthma.  So asthma is different for everyone I think.  I will give up if I can't solve it.  But I want to try because almost all of my engines are MTH steam and diesel and almost all have smoke units.  I put sound control insulation in the walls and ceiling of my train room -- and that solved the noise pollution problem in the rest of the house. There's a post on the smoke issue from a few years ago and the guys dug deep into the health hazards of toy train smoke and how the ingredients vary a bit by manufacturer.  Some kind of ventilation for a train room isn't a bad thing -- so it may merit discussion.  I may explore a smoke purifier like they used to use in bars.  But then, like you say, if it still bothers her it doesn't solve my problem.

You could try installing two bathroom fans in the ceiling that are ducted to outside

  I did this with good results on a basement that I finished and developed for a Client, Whom I also built a 12’ x 24’ O scale 3 rail layout ( lots of smoke! )

 Also check your location for return air vents that could be drawing the smoke back into the  supply air system again

Al

Ya, we both smoked. I quit after an MI age 38. She quit a few years later and it was after that that she began to be triggered by smoke. Asthma is a miserable business.

For what it's worth, I have asthma, and when we had our layout up stairs, even with all the windows open, the ****ed smoke bothered the devil out of me! It didn't take me long to NEVER use smoke again (besides it screws up the weathering on all the steam locomotives and scenery), and any and all visitors were told to NOT use the smoke.

As additional information, what you all refer to as "smoke" is NOT "smoke", but vaporized oil. That is not NOT healthy for intake into your lungs, no matter what, in my opinion.

I'm an ex-smoker myself, also.  Quit at 36.  Interesting, Lew.

Al, thanks for the dual vent idea.  That's really helpful input.  The cold air returns are limited in my basement because I did the work and just tapped into my overhead heating vents for added heat in the basement without additional cold air returns.

I think most of the smoke is mineral oil based (searched the forum).  But they aren't all identical, I guess.  So that search continues.

Home Depot has HEPA filter machines (large one for about $220) and the reviews are great for people who suffer like my wife.  They clean dander, SMOKE and allergens.  Perhaps 2 ceiling vents in the train room and 1 or 2  large 400 sq. ft.+ HEPA filter machines upstairs would do the trick -- that way any residual smoke that gets upstairs would be purified.  These machines might actually be good even when not running the trains!

Al, did you install 2 vents and merge them into 1 duct to the outside?  Or 2 separate ducts?

Have you seen the tv ad for oder neutralizers?. These sticks neutralize oders. Probably that a million 

How about a HEPA filter mask for your wife? How much does she love you?

Seriously, I don’t have asthma and the smoke bothers me in a matter of minutes. I only run it for a little bit then turn it off and open the windows.

George

No disrespect here but some people are taking this hobby to far. It’s your wife, turn off the smoke. 

 Your heater's blower intake registers, ducting, and chamber/housing are also in the basement rafters; are they drawing from the risen smoke? Drawing from the basement vs upstairs? 

Tight floor boards? carpet ? plastic barrier in the padding?  Finished basement ceiling ????

  Airflow in houses varies a lot. "Air balancing" is a job (and a type of hvac unit)

Good industrial fart fans (technical term for push fan😁) are rated for cubic feet per min/sec..How fast do want to vent & how big an area? In what manner does that area circulate air? Will it need a boost around the ceiling? 

What about intake of fresh air? If the home is "air tight" Will that effect your heaters ignition by drawing fresh from its exhaust/chimney?

.....ask your local hvac guy if venting is ok 😉 They can also likely point you to a number of other air scrubbing choices; which might be a good idea anyhow.

Most air purification devices are designed to deal with particles, not droplets of oil so it's not guaranteed that these methods will work. If you are determined to keep breathing toy train smoke yourself, a separate ventilation system may be the only solution that works.  Only by trying will you find out. 

The cheaper and healthier solution for all is to not use the toy train smoke or restrict it dramatically.  The human lung (and vascular system,  which also gets exposed through the lungs) was not evolved for inhaling mineral oil droplets or diesel exhaust.  Hence the well documented relationship between distance from a main highway and frequency of heart attacks, as well as the density of these small particles and heart attacks. 

Over the last 40-50 years,  the air has been largely cleaned up by restricting air pollution from vehicles and power plants, the incidence of heart attacks and strokes amongst the population have decreased by perhaps 70-80% in the USA.  Whether toy train smoke at the frequencies and densities some people employ them represent similar risks is entirely unknown.  But why take the risk?  Asthma is bad enough, but vascular disease and emphysema are often even worse, and these are issues for which we have no data.  Oil droplets may not be as inflammatory and dangerous as products of combustion, but we do not know.

Landsteiner posted:

, the incidence of heart attacks and strokes amongst the population have decreased by perhaps 70-80% in the USA.  

And yet they're still the number 1 killer world wide...you may be expecting incorrectly....lol!

Is my wife here on the forum?  I did a search for insensitive jerk husband masks and I just couldn't find one.

Of course the smoke is turned off until I find a solution. 

She's a pretty good cook and I'd hate to lose her. (That's a joke, fellas.)

Another idea 

Put a cover over the layout and suck the smoke out.

The bubble layout....

My train room is in a different building so the train smoke is not a problem. But I smoke cigars and during the winter opening windows or using the exhaust ventilator in the wall is not an option as I heat with a pellet stove. I purchased an industrial air filter designed for cigar lounges that cleans the air rapidly. It also cleans the train smoke as well. It has a three inch thick carbon filter and a Hepa pre-filter.  Within a short time the air smells mountain air clean. If I were you this the direction I would go. Contact me off line and I can give you a link to the company I dealt with. 

Asthma is a serious affliction that generally has a trigger. Some are known identifiable triggers, others are not associated with external trigger responses. The hallmark symptom is spastic coughing , wheezing (sometimes quite tight) and Bronchoconstriction. Chest can feel tight, the smooth musculature in the lungs contracts and narrows the airway, more secretions are made potentially occluding the airway.  Incessant tight coughing only tightens the lungs up even more. Asthma is  an inflammatory process that can be quite devastating in short order. People in an asthmatic flare up situation can start to stack up air that cannot be exhaled and increase trapped pressures in their lungs. This has potentially devastating effects on the cardiopulmonary circulation.  During the early stages of an attack patients may try to use rescue inhalers if they have them or nebulizers. Note: There is always the possibility that this medication fails as one cannot effectively bronchodilate when lungs are in a state of advancing inflammation, requiring anti inflammatory agent (in quick order in hospital ER) to allow the bronchodilators to work!  The business of oxygenation is jeopardized as ventilation grows more tight and pressures stack up. Generally people will wait too long to get this advance care. Sometimes the care involves pharmaceutical paralyzation, intubation of the trachea, and life support via ventilator. 

IRON HORSE, TURN OFF The smoke unit. If your wife is bothered by this it should be looked upon as a trigger that  you can control. Reactive airway disease needs to be taken seriously.

Leroof

Registered Respiratory Therapist (41 years of service).

Leroof,

The smoke unit IS turned off.  I'm exploring ways to SAFELY turn it back on, IF POSSIBLE, without harming my wife.  If I wasn't taking it seriously I wouldn't be exploring a solution here.   She is an active part of my search and discussions on the subject.  She has never had a serious asthma attack and I do not plan on letting my toy trains create the first one.

Hopefully, she’s had a good checkup of her heart. Fluid filling the lungs from heart issues can cause symptoms of asthma. I know about five or six cases where asthma symptoms disappeared after heart surgery. In the meantime - I would live with out the smoke.

IRON HORSE posted:

My train room has no vents so I'm thinking about putting the highest powered bathroom ceiling vent I can find in my train room and sucking the smoke to the outdoors.  Has any one tried this with success?  With an asthmatic in their house? 

Thanks,

Mike

I installed a bathroom exhaust fan in the ceiling of my train room. It does a very effective job of clearing the smoke from the room. Unlike you, mine is in the attic. I typically run with the smoke units off for two reasons; mess and having to continue adding fluid to the engines.

FWIW smoke fluid got banned here because of an indiscriminate use of coal scented smoke. I have a very poor since of smell. The stuff smelled pretty accurate to me. I have no information regarding the toxicity of smoke fluid, and have not seen a MSDS sheet. I am an engineer and not a doctor, and have nothing to add regarding the subject of asthma.  

Copied from the JP Mega-steam website "Do not use smoke units around people or children w/ asthma or other respiritory sensitivities" As far as I'm concerned, nuff said.

Riki wins! ....gonna call um "Bubbles" now though. 

Charcoal filters do grab oils well. 

According to LEROOF's profile, he is a registered respiratory therapist and his knowledge of the serious complications of asthma attacks is sound. NO disrespect intended, but if it were my wife, I would permanently turn off all the smoke units.

I may be an outlier among O gauge railroaders, but I never run with smoke on. Smoke fluid can mess up a locomotive, the smoke units are problematic, fail and need service, the smoke leaves an odor in the room, and a particulate fallout on the layout. As far as I know, there is no smoke from HO and N gauge engines, so the vast majority of model railroaders do without it and apparently do not need it. If they can get along without smoke, why can't O gaugers? Finally, I think breathing the smoke is unhealthful, whether or not one has a respiratory condition. Having said all this, if you enjoy running with smoke on your railroad, that is the right choice for you.

MELGAR

All the smoke fluids as well as Vape Juice have the same basic ingredients before flavors and scents are added. Propylene glycol, glycerin and water.  Mixed together and heated to between 400f and 500f. I have permanent bronchitis and get pleurisy most winters. About ten minutes in a room filled with model train smoke vapors and my chest feels like it will explode. I usually don't feel it immediately but an hour or so later and it can last twelve or fourteen hours.  So I keep the smoke turned off most of the time.  If that is not reason enough it gets on everything including the track. Seems it is a big problem for some people but does not bother others at all.  Not too different than cigarette smoke.  I had an aunt that died in 2017 who was 102 years old and smoked a pack of cigarettes a day from the time she was twelve. She would come to visit and since you have to hug your aunt I would take a deep breath when ten feet away, run up and give her a big hug before rapidly backing off.  If I smoked one cigarette it would put me in the hospital.  I do love to watch videos of other folks locos belching smoke.              j

"Propylene glycol, glycerin and water."  Some of the same ingredients are present in electronic cigarettes, which have been implicated in fatal lung injury in many young individuals.  We don't know for sure what materials have caused these terrible injuries, or how much exposure can cause irreversible harm.  Obviously there is much more intense exposure with electronic cigarettes than with a room full of train "smoke."  But why take the risk when there are no data to support the safety and plenty of reasons to be concerned about extensive exposure?  Either don't use it or use it in moderation with good ventilation.  No need for paranoia, just reasonable caution.  Particularly if you or someone you love clearly exhibits symptoms on exposure.  Symptoms are the canary in the mineshaft.  And asthma, as has been mentioned,  can go from a minor inconvenience to fatal without any warning in rare individuals.

I particularly appreciate Leroof's and Melgar's contributions here.

As the OP who started Show Me Your Best Smoker thread, I obviously love the smoke feature of my modern steamers and diesels, but I have decided to turn it off most of the time. I will have them smoke when I have an audience that would appreciate it, which is rare, when making videos of my smoking locomotives, also rare, and once in a while for my own pleasure. Arnold

I do not question the serious health effects of train smoke for asthma.  That's why I started this topic.  Nor do I question Leroof's expertise.  In fact, I sincerely thank Leroof for the detailed explanation as an expert.  His post is both a public service and warning to us all.  He saved me and perhaps other asthma sufferers the $50 co-pay of discussing the issue with an expert on the subject outside of my train world.

I'm surprised by the number of o gaugers that do not run smoke at all for health reasons and the residue it puts out on our layouts. I LOVED running smoke in my old train room -- but it was detached from the house.  At some point back then, after running several engines and clouding up my train room,  I asked this forum if smoke could be a health issue and most agreed we should not cloud up our whole rooms for health reasons; but otherwise, if it were bad for you, wouldn't there be lung related class action suits against the train companies that make them?   Common sense must prevail.  We are observing puffs from our engines.  Unlike vaping, we are not trying to ingest it into our lungs to ignite our pleasure sensors.  I've attached the ingredients found from one smoke fluid manufacturer that was posted on a different topic on the OGRR forum.  Yes, its the same manufacturer mentioned above, that I now discover to my dismay, that says do not use it around people with asthma.

Up until now, engines that do not have smoke units have been disqualified by me as a purchase option.  For example, other than the added detail, I chose a Premier E8 set from MTH over the Railking version because the latter doesn't have a smoke unit.   Needless to say, I am shocked that, after 25 years of running smoke, my wife and I discover that the smoke is a problem for her now that the trains are in the house.

Based on 33 years in the remodeling business as a manager, I was able to finish my basement myself and made my train room contain the noise from digital sounds using rockwool insulation and acoustic sound-deadening ceiling tiles at an added expense.  Adding ventilation to remove train smoke from the room so it does not escape into the house seemed like an intriguing challenge to pursue.  That's why I am here.  

Had I known then, 25 years ago, what I know now, perhaps a collection of Williams trains with just horns, bells and whistles would have been a better choice for me, saved me some money and kept my lungs healthy.  Then again, would I have enjoyed the trains as much as I have without the digital sounds and smoke?

Landsteiner posted:

"Propylene glycol, glycerin and water."  Some of the same ingredients are present in electronic cigarettes, which have been implicated in fatal lung injury in many young individuals.  We don't know for sure what materials have caused these terrible injuries, or how much exposure can cause irreversible harm. 

Actually, research has uncovered several aspects of the E-cigarette ingredients that are the main culprits in lung issues, and it wasn't any of the aforementioned items.

Popcorn Lung: A Dangerous Risk of Flavored E-Cigarettes

Can Vaping Lead to Lung Disease?

Sucking the vapor directly into your lungs is a whole lot different than being in a room where there is mineral oil vapor.

"Actually, research has uncovered several aspects of the E-cigarette ingredients that are the main culprits in lung issues, and it wasn't any of the aforementioned items."

Actually there are still plenty of unanswered questions about the mechanism(s) of lung damage that occur through vaping.   I have worked with the leader of the group who published some of the recent work .

IRON HORSE, I am confident that your choices will be made in your wife's best interest.

I just wanted to add these thoughts as well.

 Many decades ago people did not have the sensitivities they sometimes succumb to medically. Reactive airway was not common in 50's 60's however smoking was.  Toxicity in our environments are many. Our bodies try to adapt to modernization metabolically. Manufacturing processes have become less organic but thats all we are , one organic balancing act as we exchange gasses withing our circulation and cells. The business of homeostasis( stable equilibrium between interdependant elements especially as maintained by physiologic processes)  is a constant work of organic art. There are compensatory actions for defense however sometimes at a price in lung disease. Some have better defense mechanisms, some don't.  The key thing in many lung issues is response to.inflammatory response particularly in asthma.  Part of wellness management includes protecting ones airway by identifying triggers, and additionally making our environment as safe and well aerated as one can. Basements also present problems with mold that can be a sole causative factor in asthmatic symptoms. Good Aeration, dehumidification, and filtration are all part of living indoors. We spend large amounts of time at our layouts, but not everyone can have a room upstairs in a dedicated room. 

Thank you for your attention and comments.

So are the smoke pellets in old PW locos "safer"? I thought I remembered reading that the compound is a hydrocarbon, not sure what the resulting "smoke" is

"So are the smoke pellets in old PW locos "safer"? "

I doubt there are any data and there is no way of knowing.  Best guess, not any safer, not any more dangerous.  Less exposure is better.

MELGAR posted:

As far as I know, there is no smoke from HO and N gauge engines, . . . 

I haven't bought an HO engine in years, but, at one time, TYCO engines came with smoke units.  I still have two or three boxed up.  I have no idea if the units would work anymore, but I also have a bottle or two of the fluid.

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

I particularly appreciate Leroof's and Melgar's contributions here.

As the OP who started Show Me Your Best Smoker thread, I obviously love the smoke feature of my modern steamers and diesels, but I have decided to turn it off most of the time. I will have them smoke when I have an audience that would appreciate it, which is rare, when making videos of my smoking locomotives, also rare, and once in a while for my own pleasure. Arnold

Arnold,

That is a sensible way to do it. Everything in moderation... In the real world there were steam engineers who ran a clean stack whenever possible.

MELGAR

palallin posted:

I haven't bought an HO engine in years, but, at one time, TYCO engines came with smoke units.  I still have two or three boxed up.  I have no idea if the units would work anymore, but I also have a bottle or two of the fluid.

Many of the HO engines I had as a kid (70's into 80's) had smoke.

Off the top of my head, at least one Tyco (Chatanooga Choo-Choo set), and several Bachmann engines (2 N&W J's, and a NYC Niagara).

There were probably others, but those are the ones that I immediately remember.  The smoke wafts were nowhere near the fan driven O Gauge units we have today, of course.  It was basically a little grey square-ish "bowl" with some sort of resistive wire with a metal piece in the middle that vaporized the fluid.

-Dave