Atlas GP40-2 Diesels

Good Day Al,

I've been campaigning for a GP40-2 for several years. I wish Atlas would present a GP40-2. It would be a top seller!

Regards,

Swafford 

  https://ogrforum.com/t...or-future-production

Maybe part of the problem for manufacturers considering a model of the GP40-2 is; which one? The outward appearance of the prototype GP40-2 changed often enough as a result of various small carbody design changes over the production years, it might be fairly difficult for a model manufacturer, such as Atlas, to decide "which version" would be the best seller.

Swafford,

I totally agree!! I see GP40-2s&GP38-2s on the local switch run all the time. They're 2 of the old workhorses of the railroads for countless years,now employed mostly on local freights& yard service,but I remember in B&O and early Chessie days,they were common sites on the Mainlines. It was common to see 3 or 4 coupled together.

Oh well,as the "Charlie" in the box on the Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer,said when he thought they'd missed Santa again, "I guess we can always dream about next year."

 Take care,

Al Hummel

I can follow that line of reason,but this at least the 2nd run of these diesels done in HO,I have the C&O&B&O models from the 1st run many years back,so based on sales from that run plus they had to agree on numbers of sales from the Prototypes for this 2nd run,so they must have some decent idea of popularity for an O Scale run. If they put out U23's&newer diesels produced after the GP40-2s & they sell well,in my opinion,should be time to give an O Scale model an educated guess. They did the GP15s also & they seem non existent, to buy,so they must've sold well,as Atlas said that's an old model that they might be looking at rerunning,so I think this would be great. (Of course what do I know& I'm willing to admit that.)

Al Hummel

Mr. Hummel,

Please do NOT try and rationalize what ANY of the manufacturers offer/produce in HO vs. what would/could be available on O Scale. The sales volumes in HO are so much higher than scale offerings on O, that comparisons are a total waste of time.

I have a couple MTH Western Maryland GP40s (20-2758-1) and they're great. I hope MTH does another run of Baltimore & Ohio and Chessie GP40s (-2s) in the future. I missed the first runs.

Is there really that much difference between a  GP40 and a -2? They both had the same frames and trucks. The carbodies are pretty much identical. The newly announced MTH CSX GP40s (20-20570-1/20-20571-1) are actually numbered as GP40-2s.

1.  I find that difficult ( though not impossible, see below ) to accept, even given the economies of scale [ of production numbers ] that HO has.  If a manufacturer has past data on what sold well in HO [ with allowance for competitors' products ] , they'd be foolish not to use it as ONE of the inputs in the decision process.

   That a manufacturer has done a model in HO, especially a well received one, makes that model a more likely candidate for 0 scale because the research has already been done -- and gleaned by those overly-picky [ by catnap's standards ] HOérs -- and while "research" is not a great cost center, if it's already done a model can be brought to market much more rapidly.

2.  Of course, it's possible the 0 scale Product Planning Committee meetings go something like this:

     Boss:  OK, the next model up for discussion is a GP40-2.  What does our market research tell us ?

     Jerry:  The Pennsy didn't have any.

     Boss:  Ah, OK.  The next model to look at......

3.  "Which" GP40-2 can be an opportunity, not a problem.  Pick one, then -- with a little preplanning, and assuming those carbody / jewelry changes really are minimal -- mod the tooling to do another variation.

Of course, I'm not in the model rr business -- either.

Best, SZ

Catnap,

I'm certainly no expert on this,but I did read where the main difference between the GP40&-40-2's are electrical in nature more than structural. If there weren't different number blocks between the GP40-2's&GP38-2's,I doubt if I'd know the difference,myself.

You hit on the topic which may very well tell us why Atlas isn't bringing out these loco's if MTH is doing them. I didn't know this. Are they doing them in their "Premier" line which is 2 rail,"capable" I believe is how they state it at MTH?

Thank you.

Al Hummel

I just looked up the GP40s from MTH coming-well they say 2016,but can we rely on that with all the overseas production glitches regardless of the scale? They look nice,not 100% like the loco's I see on CSX,but great overall.

These can be ordered with scale wheels also I see,another plus. That leaves couplers. If these are from the Premier line,they should have Kadee mounting pads ready.(?)

Can they be ordered with fixed pilots? I don't really mind,just want these diesels to work correctly for 2 rail.

I was just getting ready to try to sell my DCS system,but if I buy these diesels,will that system work well with these units in 2 rail?

Thank you.

Al Hummel

I think I read someplace that the short hood on the GP38-2 was about a foot longer than the original GP38.   There might be some door changes on the long hood too.

That is probably not noticable unless you have one of each side by side.

Bear in mind Atlas has not done tooling for a new engine since the tooling 6 years ago for the GE 8-40CW models they show at their exhibit displays and this model is still "coming". I notice there was no mention of delivery of this model at all at York. Just Saying!

Frank underestimates his few years.  It was one of the things most asked for on the old Atlas O forum a decade ago.

Atlas had a habit, in the Jim Weaver days, of making obscure offshoots of what people asked for.  Like the GP60 instead of the GP40.  The older Twin Stack cars rather than the more contemporary double stack cars.  Older single tub bathtub gondolas rather than the more modern twin tub variety.  Or the MP15 rather than the SW1500.  Pretty much all of the things being requested were being made in HO by Atlas at the time.

At least they are now finally making modern double stack cars.   

The number of repainted/reruns they have had to cancel for lack of reservations is pushing them to offer more new product, slowly of course as their business model has been built on products being rerun from time to time.JMO

Thank you VERY MUCH for the information, that helps guide my future directions.

About arrival dates,again that's anyones' guess. All we can do is hope.

Al Hummel

And yet Atlas has made GP7, GP9, GP15, GP60s and they all sold. Do not understand their decision making.

Dick

What?????   Really? Why don't you understand why they have made models that actually SELL, and SELL consistently?

Overall, MTH has been pretty close to meeting their shipping dates the last couple of years. Of course, each item is different. Most of the things I have ordered have been within a couple of months of their estimated dates.

However, I am all 3 rail and I haven't ordered anything specifically for 2 rail. But, if they are close to the dates with the 3 rail versions, I don't see why they wouldn't make the 2 rail models at the same time?

Atlas could do the GP40-2 and be successful considering the the mth quality is below the Atlas Trainman line.

Stephen

Why Stephen, your being complementary.  Don't let it become a habit.

Thanks rdunniii, I must be having a bad day. No really, I believe anything Atlas would do would certainly out sell mth.

Stephen

Unfortunately, I don't.  The reason the Atlas Dash8-40CW is still on hold is due to insufficient preorders because of the availability of the MTH version.  Someone in the biz told me at a show,  and I shall paraphrase,  You've heard you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear?  well, in O gauge you can take a sows ear and put a silk purse paint job on it and if the price is right it will sell just fine.

That is an incorrect statement, I recently tried 2 of Atlas major dealers to reserve 2 of the long awaited 8-40CW diesels and in both cases they were told by Atlas that reservations are closed on these units,standby only.

While I wholeheartedly agree that Atlas would outsell MTH on equivalent locomotives and rolling stock, I also believe that Atlas "really" wants to have a case of little or no competition in their product lines (especially in O scale) throughout the life of the model (which seems to go on for up to a decade or more), not just its initial release.  Atlas’ business model appears to require several runs of a model before it starts to earn its keep and as long as there is no competition, the model just keeps on giving, and giving... 

Therefore, I think Atlas deliberately shies away from the more common models just to deliberately keep the sales going release-after-release.  I also agree with RDunniii in that the reason the Dash 8-40C model keeps getting pushed back is because MTH has theirs out and since Atlas also gets much of its volume from the 3-Rail crowd so many of the models that would be purchased from Atlas, have already been purchased as MTH models.  This, of course, lays a big egg on potential profit margins, especially if successive runs don’t do well or get cancelled, not good on the financial investment for a brand new model (at least for Atlas anyway).  Atlas might best be served by bringing out the Trainman version as promised to satisfy the existing pre-orders and recoup some financial outlay and then go back and retool it as a Masterline version on successive runs and try to cause the MTH Dash 8-40C owners to rebuy the upgraded Masterline version to steal back some of the market.  I don’t know if the Trainman version, although forecast to be better than the MTH version (which seems to get good reviews, by-the-way), has enough differentiating features to generate long term sales.

One locomotive I think Atlas could potentially corner the market with is the SD40-2.  Here’s why… Since MTH and Lionel are predominantly 3-Rail manufacturers and stick with the twin vertical drive design for their road diesels, Atlas could design a horizontal drive, which would probably be a necessity for this model of locomotive anyway due the long patio in the back of loco that half the rear truck resides beneath, so because of this, MTH or Lionel are not very likely to "break stride" and produce a competing scale version of this locomotive and Atlas would enjoy all the spoils for many follow-on releases.  3rd Rail seems to have no problems selling a horizontal drive to the 3 Rail crowd so shouldn't be a problem for Atlas either.  Also, lots of potential for follow-on production runs due to numerous road names and even the potential for a follow-on model, the SD45-2, which uses the same chassis,   The downside, of course, is that this model is a large 6-axle road diesel, where a more-common 4-axle GP40-2 might be more well-received on typically smaller O Scale layouts.   Just some thoughts…..

Scott Kay

Austin, TX

Then there is a difference between what Atlas dealers say and what an Atlas person said at the NMRA show.

Does Atlas really out-sell MTH?  That surely would put Atlas as the #1 O Scale supplier.  I figure Lionel and MTH are neck and neck.

I seriously doubt that Atlas outsells either of the big two, Atlas production runs of most if not all models are well below Lionel or MTH, bear in mind to make their production numbers from the start Atlas had to have both 2 rail and 3 rail markets to make O scale feasible for them, they basically committed to accurate 1/4" scale models with as much as economically possible prototype paint schemes as most are well aware the 3 rail mfgs have no such restrictions on their products [if its not 0-27 it must be O scale and any paint job that sells]JMO

OK bob2, you got me on this one. What I should have said that the Atlas models are better researched and more accurate than mth. I have purchased both and will never buy another toy 2 rail mth loco again. A piece of crap. Stephen

Scott,

How's a relative newcomer like myself to take all this? I'm dealing with the fact that O Scale is a small market,most popular with 3 railers,2railers being the minority. There's 3 manufacturers of importance in O Scale,only 2 of which that have concern for the 2 railers. Those 2 fight against themselves,leaving the newcomers looking from the outside in at O Scale from other scales or at railroading for the 1st time,trying to decide on a scale,confused & wondering if they want any part of this scale,for sure.

I realize competitors try to get the most out of any scale for themselves,that's natural,unfortunate,but human. This leaves the modeler scratching his head wondering if O Scale's really worth all the choices you got to make. The market is limited to start with,much more so than HO&N.

To stick to the post line here,I never owned an MTH diesel,just watched 3rail videos on Utube & they seem to run ok,the sound isn't the greatest,but tolerable. The Atlas GP15s I own have great detail & sharp paint schemes. I was looking to buy the 8-40CW for modern road diesels,but now see that's scrubbed,correct me if I missed something. My choice has to be made-sell the Atlas GP15s & put that money towards the purchase of MTH GP40 CSX diesels or stay with Atlas & hope some day they'll wake up & do some models that'd sell well-quite a choice. Or sell all the O Scale & stay in HO where there is only track switches to add & couplers to change over. I'm VERY SORRY TO SAY,the incentive for O Scale is diminishing for this modeler more every day. For serious scale modelers,regardless of scale size,there has to be incentive. Locomotives & rolling stock with high detail to choose from.

I hope that MTH&Atlas get it figured out.

Just my 2 cents,

Al Hummel

So how many thousand orders does Atlas have to have to consider a project? When I talked to Atlas months ago about an unrelated matter,I said we'd like to have a GP40-2 to which the reply was a casual laugh,but then I was told a SDP35 or 45,I don't remember which, was possible.

Al Hummel

I will try to remember to ask my LHS about this engine tomorrow. I talked to them about ordering one of these (3 rail) well over a year ago (could be closer to two years ago?). They were unable to order one at that time. Time passed and then within the last couple of months they told me they were finally able to order one for the store and I could have it if I still wanted it. Not sure of the current status as I haven't talked to them about it again since then?

As for the MTH diesels, Some have very good sound, others not so good. They are not all the same in sound quality. I used to think Lionel had the top sound, but I have a couple of recent MTH engines that sound awfully good. Something a 2-railer wouldn't be interested in, but one of my favorites is a RK Scale SD-45. Right after I got my RK Scale version, they offered a Premier version, which my LHS just got in a few weeks ago. I'm thinking about trading in my RK Scale for the Premier version. Not sure they offered this in a 2 rail version, but it was in either the 2014 v2 or 2015 v1 catalog.

I believe Mr Muffins Trains still has the 3 rail version listed for preorder, it would be best to call and verify.

If I gave Alan or anyone the impression the Atlas Dash8 had died that was my bad and not my intention.

Alan hasn't been hereabouts long enough to know what has happened to Atlas over the past 6 years or so.  They used to have all their stuff manufactured by a company called Sanda Kan.  Many if not most of the O manufacturers also used Sanda Kan.  Sanda Kan got bought out by the company that owns Bachmann (Kader) and they kicked everybody out.  So all the importing companies had to scramble about looking for new manufacturers.  So everything Atlas had in the pipeline that wasn't in process came to a screeching halt.  Atlas scrambled about for several years first getting things done as best they could and second looking for a permanent replacement.  That's why the finish of the first run of CZ cars doesn't match the others.

They have found the permanent replacement and are still getting things back up to speed.  As they make most of their money on HO and N most of their investment has been on bringing them back up to speed.  O comes 3rd.  But the same rule applies within O that the things that make the best return on investment will be kept at the front of the line.  This is simply good business.

There are two parts to all this investment equation.  Development costs and production costs.  In the case of the Dash8-40CW I believe the development and tooling was done at the end of the Sanda Kan debacle (by Sanda Kan).  This would mean it is a paid for sunk cost to Atlas.  They of course want to get that money back.  But, this will mean production costs have to be covered and make enough profit to cover how ever much of the development costs their business model requires.

This is what Scott Kay was alluding to needing multiple runs to completely get the development money back.  I guess Atlas does not believe now is the best time to optimize their returns on this model relative to other things.  This does not mean the model will never be made or is far off in the future.  My guess is that Atlas reviews this decision at least quarterly and maybe even monthly depending on what is in the pipeline.

Really tempting to repeat all that text so everybody can read it a third time.  I will resist, and just post an excerpt:

Or sell all the O Scale & stay in HO where there is only track switches to add & couplers to change over. I'm VERY SORRY TO SAY,the incentive for O Scale is diminishing for this modeler more every day. For serious scale modelers,regardless of scale size,there has to be incentive. 

I am a serious modeler in O Scale.  There is more stuff to buy now than at any other time in history, and more of it is of good quality and accurate.  It may never get any better than this.  In HO, there is three times as much stuff, because there is ten times the market.  You cannot single-handedly dictate to Atlas what they ought to do - they are in business to make a profit, not to make modelers happy.

Atlas has these,8-40CWs scheduled for delivery in 01/2016. JD' Trains has them listed. What's a fellow to think based on this info?

Al Hummel

Thinking is dangerous and associated with risk-taking and being assigned with blame for the results.  Do as little as possible, or at least never admit to any such activity in public.

That you really like to hit that empty cloud button before posting?

I would say the Phase TWO or the Phase II. MTH has cornered the Phase I "Plane JAne" Gp40.

Phase II differences: Sd40-2 rear Grills, Sight Glass on long hood 88' short Hood

[compared to 81"] Hyatt Bearing end caps for loco trucks. Dynamic Brake Hatch on Firemans side. Maybe other details that I missed

Phase III-larger Blower motor induct plus "Bug Eye" uni-directional marker lamps. exposed Bearings on trucks. Hinged Front BAttery Boxes. Straight frame[ no notches] Maybe other details that I missed