ATSF 2926

Wow! Nice pictures. Not many people can get shots like these. Thank you for sharing.

I hope they correct the numbers on the tender. They look too thin to me.

 

Stuart

 

 

Great photos Doug.

 

Ron

thanks for sharing!

Thanks for sharing, Doug. She's coming along nicely. I guess I'll be sending an E-mail to MTH asking them to dust off their 2900-class Northern tooling for another run when she comes back on line.

This one was on display Kingman AZ.  One of my trips to the great south west. It has a unique adjustable smoke stack.

 

Too bad Mike won't give you correct size pilot wheels, and the pilot will be two feet above the rail head !

Matt just get this one: I think Scott still has some 

 

Any word on when it might be running? When I saw they said it was about 3 years away, of course that was about 8 years ago.

They were going to be installing the super heater tubes next. They are hoping to have a fire in the boiler by the end of the year.... at least to start the various tests. Goal #2 was to move under her own steam by next Spring.

I was there in June. They were just finishing up the superheater fabrication. Said they thought a hydro test by the end of the month, well that didn't happen.. still fixing broken studs for the lagging. I expect a hydro by the end of the year, maybe test fire next spring. I made a donation to the building gofundme. Need to get her out of the weather. They are getting close and have to be excited!

 I was surprised by the size of her. Not much bigger than 765. Makes sense, they are close in TE, although the biggest difference is driver size, and boiler pressure.

Those are vinyl. They were installed just for effect a few years ago when the Tender was painted. The Tender will receive correct lettering when the restoration is completed.

Thank you for the clarification.  I was talking tonight to a friend who is also another Santa Fe fan about this. We both felt that this might have been the case where this was just temporary until the restoration is completed.

 

Stuart

 

 

Well, not to nitpick... If almost 200k lbs more total engine and tender weight and 20k lbs more TE is close, then yes, they are close in size. 

Do not go by the published 66k TE number on the 2900s. That number is laughably under rated.

 

From SBRHS.ORG: (ATSF 3751)
Bob Kittel (SBRHS CMO) "It is interesting that the Santa Fe 4-8-4s, all four classes, have the same stated tractive effort of 66,000 lbs. The computed tractive effort is based upon a coefficient (0.85). This coefficient is the combination of Mean Effective Pressure and a friction term. The friction term is set to '1.0' when roller bearings are specified, which it has now. If you do the math work on figuring tractive effort for the 51 class then you come up with 71,719 lbs of tractive effort (TE). This of course after using a different coefficient of friction calculation because of the roller bearings - 66k was the TE as built with friction bearings in 1927, in 1941 it was modernized with roller bearings. The RRs didn't use the different methods of figuring and only used .085 for friction bearings for all engines. If you look at the tractive effort of a 2900 as 66K (as stated in some books) this is ridiculous, 2900's weigh 32,000 pounds more than the 51 class and has higher steam pressure and more horsepower. The tractive effort figure then for 2900s comes to around 86,922 TE. This is why I said that 66K TE for 2900s is crazy."

A 2900 class Northern clocks in at a little over 120' long.  The NKP Berk is around 99' long.  Both the 2900's locomotive and tender each are about 10' longer than the Berk's.

 

Rusty

What can we line up in the way of real, authentic Santa Fe passenger cars to put behind this outrageous chooch when she's out of the oven??

Thanks for Sharing These Fantastic Pictures of this and other Famous Powerful Majestic Steam Locomotives....Our History of Rail Travel Led by these Marvels of Invention is just Simply Amazing....Thank You for this Thread....This is the best Forum in the Hobby of Trains and related Ideas.....WOW!!! 

The "starting" tractive effort is a CALCULATION, and that is all it is. The .85 you see in the formula is based on the approximate maximum cutoff at starting of 85%, which indicates that steam is admitted into the cylinders for 85% of the stroke. (This formula and the explanation of terms can be found in Locomotive Cyclopedias and a number of other places.) What matters far more is the tractive effort at "running cutoffs", because that is HP! By the way, the ATSF Northerns were a limited cutoff engine (at starting), so the rated TE may be correct, but gives an incomplete indication re how well the Loco can do.

The 2926 is "a lot" larger than almost anything else with two cylinders, due to those expansive western clearances. I saw #2926 several years ago and literally stumbled on it by accident. it was not in good shape, and was sadly neglected. the return of the latest version of the ATSF Northern to service, complete with Timken rods and 16 wheel tender, will be a real milestone and one that I eagerly await. Wife and I want to visit the west (again) and see both this engine and the UP Big Boy in operation. Hope we do not have to wait too long.....

I see from the pictures that it has retained its Baldwin disc drivers at the #4 position, but the fronts and main now have Boxpoks. Interesting engines for a number of reasons!

When is this project expected to be completed?

To amplify Hudson5432's point, the ATSF 4-8-4s and 2-10-4s operated with a maximum 60% cutoff, meaning that mean effective pressure was less than 85% of boiler pressure (the generally accepted figure for engines with "full cutoff" ie, steam admitted for  82%-85% of the power stroke).

 

Therefore, any calculation which arrives at nearly 87,000 lbs of tractive effort for a 2900 class doesn't hold up.

 

Also, with weight on her 80' drivers being 293860 lbs her factor of adhesion would be 3.38, well below the preferred target of 4.00. This would render her quite slippery at starting.

 

in the 1940s, the AAR conducted tests on the (at the time) 10 degree curve, on the North Track at Cajon Station, to test stresses on curved rail.

 

The locomotives tested were an FEF 3 class from the Union Pacific, a GS-4 class from the Southern Pacific and a 3776 class 4-8-4 and a 5011 class 2-10-4 from the Santa Fe.

 

The 3776 had the same cylinder dimensions, boiler pressure and limited cutoff as the 2900s.

 

The same test train was accelerated multiple times over the same section of the route by each of the 4-8-4 locomotives

 

If the Santa Fe engine had that nominal 87000 lb TE it would be expected to accelerate the test train much faster than the other two 4-8-4s, but the UP FEF-3 was the consistent winner in the acceleration department.

Yes, you certainly can't say it's "not much bigger than 765." The 2926 is substantially larger then the 765. The 765 is 100' 8 1/2" long and weighs 802,000 lbs. The 2926 is 120' 10" long, and weighs 975,000 lbs. (The UP's big 844 Northern, by comparison, is 114' 8 1/2" long and weighs 907,000 lb.)

 

I saw the 2912 at Pueblo, Colorado several years ago, and it's size really stuck me - these 2900 class Northerns are huge engines. 

Limited cut-off...wouldn't the primary purpose here be to limit water / steam consumption?

Certainly an issue for Santa Fe, running in so much bad water, or no water areas.  I might be tempted to think, that today we might investigate re-hanging the valve gear to a somewhat "less limited" figure....sort of like removing the restrictor plates in NASCAR. This locomotive has plenty of adhesive weight to support an increase in TE.  It's also my understanding that she will have to operate at somewhat less than full boiler pressure because of the staybolt configuration she was built with.

They are hoping to have it steamed up and moving under its own power in 2016. It has been a long road for this crew and the restoration, with a few set backs. We need to get the building funded so it can be protected from the elements of winter.

Best wishes to the crew in accomplishing their goals; they've made a lot of progress since I was there in 2012.

 

wow thanks,,,,makes you forget what beasts of engineering they were/are,,,

Doug, gret pictures. Thanks for posting.

To put a finer point on the comparison of the 2926 to 765, an ATSF 2900 weighs 510,150 lbs and a NKP Berkshire weighs 444,290 lbs, sans tenders. The 2900's were the heaviest 4-8-4's built, followed by the NP A5 and WM Potomac. The 2926 will do a fine job of squashing pennies for the kids!

Great thread - Thanks for posting Doug!

It's amazing what all goes into these amazing locomotives...

In the 3rd photo above posted by Pittsburghrailfan, what is the small cylinder above the valve cylinder??

That is the special drifting/vacuum release throttle system that Santa Fe had on all their more modern, high HP steam locomotives. The Santa Fe had such very long sections of down grade that such a system worked extremely well for them. 

 

Whenever the throttle is closed on a steam locomotive, the the cylinders will draw a vacuum through the valves and suck soot and smoke from the smoke box, into the valves & cylinders. Many railroads with mountain grades had drifting/snifting valves built into the short steam pipes to the valves or on top of the valve chambers (PRR, Reading, and N&W are some good examples). The Santa Fe came up with a better idea. Can't remember the exact name, but "Wagner Drifting Throttle" comes to mind.

 

Those railroads without vacuum release systems (NKP, SP and UP, for examples) instructed their Engenmen to NEVER close the throttle all the way when drifting down grades.

That is just one huge locomotive I like the high speed side rods. I have the mth railking imperial santa fe 2929.I pull freight with mine.I think they were used on both passenger and freight.Those guys put a lot of hard work restoring that locomotive.And to work on it while out side.I hope some day they will be able to build a whare house type building to put her in.One last thing if any body sees this that works on that locomotive.Hats off to you for bring back some history.Its nice to know that people can see the real thing.In stead of just hearing  about trains like this from their grand parents.

Does it have to be Scale or can you buy the Railking version that has been out for 5 years or less?

I think it is a good idea to get MTH to do another Premier run.

I already E-mailed Midge and Andy about it. The only thing I have to decide is if I want scale wheels (and the curve radius to support it) or the Hi-rail version.

One thing that puzzles me about restored steam is water treatment. A lot of areas have hard water (builds scale like crazy), while others have very soft (acidic) water and others just have weird stuff in the water. Many operating steam locomotives are using water that's trucked in. Orange Empire Railway Museum does this on a regular basis. Has any one tried/investigated an on-board conditioning solution?

Absolutely yes. Both the previous UP Steam Crew, and the current SP 4449 crew had/have an extensive water testing protocol. Water added to the tenders is checked daily, right at the hydrant, as well as daily boiler water tests, in order to insure proper chemical levels. All that combined with proper blowdown procedures as determined by the boiler water tests, insures that all the contaminants are blown out during the trip. Another key factor is, prior to each mornings fire up, the boiler is blown down through each blowdown device (at least half a gauge glass of water). That way, all the crap that has settled to the bottom overnight, is blown out.

 

Such practices have worked for many, many, many years for the SP 4449 crew, and the UP Steam Crew, prior to 2011. In fact, a current steam boiler expert in the industry, commented that he had never seen such clean boiler flues/tubes as those removed from SP 4449 during her FRA mandated 15 year inspection, over the last 2 years. THAT speaks VERY highly for our boiler water treatment practices!

Thanks. That's good to know as I remember seeing a video of 3751's resurrection and the boiler tubes were a mess between rust and mineral deposits. Of course, it had sat idle in Viaduct Park next to the SB Depot for over 30 years

Admittedly I'm very bias when it comes to this extra special project. To my way of thinking this is without question one of the best topics to have been posted on this or any other train forum. Like so many others I greatly admire the volunteer groups supreme efforts and anxiously look forward to seeing this engine completed and operational in 2016.