I don't think the high price is indicative solely of a desire on the part of people to have a remote, I think it's indicative primarily  of the fact that secondary market Base2s and Cab2s are the only option available for Legacy control, and have been the only option for several years now.

Once the BASE3 is out, I predict that the Legacy base prices will fall fairly quickly.  Hard to say what prices the CAB2 will command, but I'm holding on to mine.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Once the BASE3 is out, I predict that the Legacy base prices will fall fairly quickly.  Hard to say what prices the CAB2 will command, but I'm holding on to mine.

I too plan to hang on to my Cab2 System if only for use during the holidays.

@Paul Kallus posted:

Has anyone been so bold as to buy a backup 990 command base, i.e., not just for the extra Cab-2?

Cab2 works with the Base3 so buying a Legacy Base makes zero sense if you're worried about a backup base.

@Paul Kallus posted:

I have extra Cab-2 controller and thought about buying a backup 990 command base, if that's the right term, but the prices on the secondary market are astronomical. IMO, this should tell the gurus at Lionel what is obvious to many. I really don't know if they are aware of the cell phone aversion, if it can be called that...or simply people prefer to use the Cab II. Those prices are also pretty high. I'll likely buy the Base 3 after the initial run; after my dismal experiences with buying the first generation DCS I learned a painful lesson. Has anyone been so bold as to buy a backup 990 command base, i.e., not just for the extra Cab-2?

I have a 990 & 993 so I'm all set for now.  I won't pay the current price for backup.  But if I ever need one, I'll buy it at these prices.

It's nice to see the market at work!  They're currently expensive and available.  If they were cheap, people would buy them up and hoard them.

Base 3 on order, 990 Cab-2 and also Cab-1L in service, so I'm probably set for some time.

Makes it discouraging as a new entrant into the command control space to see the only options so expensive, especially up here in Canada. Managed to find a new-in-box set of a TMCC base, Powermaster and 180W Powerhouse for a good price, but now trying to find a reasonably priced Cab 1 remote to complete the setup.

@Paul Kallus posted:

I have extra Cab-2 controller and thought about buying a backup 990 command base, if that's the right term, but the prices on the secondary market are astronomical. IMO, this should tell the gurus at Lionel what is obvious to many. I really don't know if they are aware of the cell phone aversion, if it can be called that...or simply people prefer to use the Cab II. Those prices are also pretty high. I'll likely buy the Base 3 after the initial run; after my dismal experiences with buying the first generation DCS I learned a painful lesson. Has anyone been so bold as to buy a backup 990 command base, i.e., not just for the extra Cab-2?

I agree about the aversion to using a phone or tablet.  IMO, a Cab2 remote would be a huge seller.

The Lionel Base3 developer (Dave Olson?) is frequently on the forum, and although I haven't looked, I'd assume that the email addresses of various members of Lionel management can be found.  Have you contacted any of these people directly?

Hi I called Lionell support, to get my 990-base repaired, they told me no more parts are available to repair the 990 base, but also told me the new base3 will communicate with the previous 990 and 993 remote, so there still only repairing the remotes only!

Alan

And the Cab-1L remote will work with Base 3.

@Mallard4468 posted:

I agree about the aversion to using a phone or tablet.  IMO, a Cab2 remote would be a huge seller.

The Lionel Base3 developer (Dave Olson?) is frequently on the forum, and although I haven't looked, I'd assume that the email addresses of various members of Lionel management can be found.  Have you contacted any of these people directly?

They are well aware of the desire to have a remote.  Dave answered this very question on the Virtual Legacy Users Group Live video He answers starting at 1:22:00

Hi OGR,

As a relative Lionel hobby newcomer (after a 30-year hiatus) I was "shocked into reality" in late 2022 to find out the only way for me to run legacy was buy this 990 for $1000.00 ... I also chose a second CABII - not for backup but for a second user/guest to run trains - for the low price of a 993 for $500.00 with both devices costing far in excess of what they were when Lionel was making them. Suffice it to say not the wisest management decision for a firm trying to appeal to high end-hobbyists and aspiring to grow their business largely from current customers (still trying to be loyal).

I have seen those prices I paid rise since then, but with pretty steady supply as people here have mentioned.

I have had to get the CABII repaired when the screen panel with number digits had a row go silent requiring a new screen panel board inside replaced by Lionel Support - that was a reasonably quick turnaround repair cycle, and the unit worked well when it arrived back home.

However, for that repair i was required to send in my BASE II (which I fought against and lost) - and when I received back both the CAB II and BASE II, the CABII had a new older version of the software (not v1.62, but v 1.5x), and the CABII was DEAD as a DOORNAIL. The return of both BASE and CABII (required) led to a BASE repair / software reinstall but this took much longer to have everything returned in good working order, well tested, with correct software, and with correct channel programmed into both BASE and CABII.

Moral of story - I will protect those CABII/BASE devices now like they are GOLD, and if/when CABIII comes out, and some of you get them and test them and debug them proclaiming they are safe - I will venture into that unknown.

Meanwhile, happy railroading!!!

- Ken

@MartyE posted:

They are well aware of the desire to have a remote.  Dave answered this very question on the Virtual Legacy Users Group Live video He answers starting at 1:22:00

Thanks for posting.  Not exactly encouraging, but not a hard no either.  IMO, some emails to Lionel wouldn't hurt.

@Alan Mancus posted:

Hi I called Lionell support, to get my 990-base repaired, they told me no more parts are available to repair the 990 base, but also told me the new base3 will communicate with the previous 990 and 993 remote, so there still only repairing the remotes only!

Alan

Wow, the parts to repair the 990 didn’t last very long. The quick obsolescence of these items is extremely frustrating. I guess they are already working on a replacement for the base3.

@romiller49 posted:

Wow, the parts to repair the 990 didn’t last very long. The quick obsolescence of these items is extremely frustrating. I guess they are already working on a replacement for the base3.

I suspect they just decided to stop fixing the command base so as not to impact sales of the BASE3.  Remember all the TMCC and early Legacy parts suddenly disappearing from the parts site?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I suspect they just decided to stop fixing the command base so as not to impact sales of the BASE3.  Remember all the TMCC and early Legacy parts suddenly disappearing from the parts site?

Lionel hasn't produced a Legacy system in probably 6 years but has been repairing them for free for as long as I can remember.  Parts eventually run out.  Why does everything have to be a conspiracy theory with this group?  I can't count how many times on this forum alone we have given folks the information to return their 990s to Lionel and they'll repair them for free.  I suspect there were less parts available for the Legacy base because there isn't much that goes wrong.  The Cab2 gets a lot more wear and tear because it's handled all the time.

Do I think it stinks that they can no longer repair them?  Yes, but I'm not going to chalk it up to some kind of conspiracy to buy a Base3.  The 990 is almost 17 years old.  There is a finite supply of parts especially on technology that old.  Sorry you can accuse me of defending Lionel but on this one I think you guys are trying to read too much into this other than the parts well ran dry.  If you think otherwise maybe you should open one up and order all the parts that make up a 990, if you can, and repair them for free like Lionel has been doing for the last umpteen years.  I swear sometimes I feel I need to borrow @bluelinec4 tinfoil hat when reading some posts here.  I hear it's especially tuned for Legacy conspiracies.

@MartyE posted:

Lionel hasn't produced a Legacy system in probably 6 years but has been repairing them for free for as long as I can remember.  Parts eventually run out.  Why does everything have to be a conspiracy theory with this group?

Marty, Lionel hadn't produced a TMCC locomotive in 15 years when all of the electronic parts for them disappeared from the parts site on the same day.  Is it your contention that hundreds of parts ran out of stock on the very same day?  I'm sorry, but that's a pretty heavy lift.  I don't know why they deep-sixed all the parts, but I'm 99.99% sure they didn't all go out of stock at once.

I'll admit, regarding the Legacy base, it's certainly possible you're right.  However, IMO, it's equally possible that I'm right.

@Alan Mancus posted:

Hi I called Lionell support, to get my 990-base repaired, they told me no more parts are available to repair the 990 base, but also told me the new base3 will communicate with the previous 990 and 993 remote, so there still only repairing the remotes only!

Alan

OK - How about Lionel publishing a schematic and telling us what parts are prone to failure. My base quit charging, again...

@Jeff T posted:

My base quit charging, again...

Easiest fix is an external battery charger. They are cheap on Amazon.

I shut the charger off on my base the day I took it out of the box.

It seems like a bad idea leaving it powered up all of the time when I'm not using it.

Unless I'm running trains my base is off and unplugged. Now that there is no longer support, this seems like a better idea than ever.

@RickO posted:

Easiest fix is an external battery charger. They are cheap on Amazon.

I shut the charger off on my base the day I took it out of the box.

It seems like a bad idea leaving it powered up all of the time when I'm not using it.

Unless I'm running trains my base is off and unplugged. Now that there is no longer support, this seems like a better idea than ever.

I hear what you're saying... I have all the chargers and such... My preference is for things to work as they should.

I only run use mine at Christmas. I can't imagine it has nearly the hours on it as those with layouts or at clubs...

I agree with Rick.  Not only leaving the base on all the time, but the fact that the internal electronics heat up the remote to what I consider uncomfortably warm, even after charging is completed made that decision for me.

I do have the #993 expansion set, and that charging base doesn't have anything but the charger circuitry in it.  It does not heat up the remote, AAMOF the remote is at room temperature after charging when I come back the next day.  I use that for charging as it's easier to rotate the remotes to charge than continually taking the batteries in and out.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Marty, Lionel hadn't produced a TMCC locomotive in 15 years when all of the electronic parts for them disappeared from the parts site on the same day.  Is it your contention that hundreds of parts ran out of stock on the very same day?  I'm sorry, but that's a pretty heavy lift.  I don't know why they deep-sixed all the parts, but I'm 99.99% sure they didn't all go out of stock at once.

I'll admit, regarding the Legacy base, it's certainly possible you're right.  However, IMO, it's equally possible that I'm right.

John I have no issue with the TMCC part of your statement.  I think it's odd too.  I just find it funny that after repairing Legacy systems for free for years on end on their dime including shipping with pretty much no questions asked, when they can't anymore the first take on it is that it's just to make us buy Base3. 

@MartyE posted:

John I have no issue with the TMCC part of your statement.  I think it's odd too.  I just find it funny that after repairing Legacy systems for free for years on end on their dime including shipping with pretty much no questions asked, when they can't anymore the first take on it is that it's just to make us buy Base3.

Well, it is just one possibility.   I guess I'm still stinging from them yanking all the TMCC and early Legacy parts and I see a conspiracy in every move now.   When I tell people that the previous $50-$100 repair is now $500 for their Legacy locomotive, I'm frequently greeted with a bit of bitterness.  It's hard not to consider at least the possibility that a similar move is taking place now.

As for repairing the Legacy for free, I figured that was just good marketing.  If you don't have a working command system, you're probably less likely to buy $2,000 steam locomotives.

My backup for the Legacy command base is the BASE1L and the CAB1L's that I have.  I do have two Legacy command bases as one is on the workbench, and the other is on the layout.  I need to be able to run full Legacy on the bench, so I put a Legacy base there.

The one pictured is my backup , broken antenna , and battery door “ cover” from the wife’s many new clothes tags . I put a fresh set of rechargable “AA’s” in it just now , and extended the antenna to 1/4 full , and works just fine .

I saw one of these the bay right now for $ 324.00 U.S.D . Are you kidding me ?

I don't use the charging circuit on my recently acquired 990 set. Decided on that after researching here before buying. I'm fine with Energizer disposable.

I also no longer leave the remote in the base if the trains are running and I'm just watching. First time I did that, I noticed how warm the remote was, figured that wasn't the healthiest for it.

@Rod M. posted:

I also no longer leave the remote in the base if the trains are running and I'm just watching. First time I did that, I noticed how warm the remote was, figured that wasn't the healthiest for it.

I tried to leave mine in the base, but it keeps falling out.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I tried to leave mine in the base, but it keeps falling out.

What is with the DCS remote commander and the tiu?

@Rod M. posted:

What is with the DCS remote commander and the tiu?

I guess you never heard of the DCS Watchdog Generator, it's build using the DCS-RC and my little timer board to force continuous watchdog signals once a second onto the rails.  This allows you to do things like power sidings on/off and not have DCS engines wake up.

I never realized it until now: what if you buy a Legacy engine for the first time and have no other way besides conventional to run it? Unless I am missing something, you're only recourse is to run it via the LionChief App and your cell phone. Does that explain the ridiculous high prices for the 990 set?

@Paul Kallus posted:

I never realized it until now: what if you buy a Legacy engine for the first time and have no other way besides conventional to run it? Unless I am missing something, you're only recourse is to run it via the LionChief App and your cell phone. Does that explain the ridiculous high prices for the 990 set?

BINGO!

@MartyE posted:

  I swear sometimes I feel I need to borrow @bluelinec4 tinfoil hat when reading some posts here.  I hear it's especially tuned for Legacy conspiracies.

To be fair Marty we have one for DCS and One for Legacy

I don't think there's a conspiracy at Lionel, that's ridiculous in itself. However, what I am seeing via cheaper motors, cheaper drive systems, rolling stock made in Vietnam, and last but not least lack of a handheld controller, is a cost-budgeting situation.

From my experience - now at 41 years in the workforce, it pretty much works like this: Upper management sets the annual budget (which they spend countless hours figuring out from their spreadsheets of fixed and variable costs as well as directives from their uppers = board of directors, stockholders, investors, etc. who need and set the ROA = return on investment) and then parcel that budget to various departments. Engineering and design gets x, marketing gets y, so forth.

Those of us (and I am one of them) at the bottom make do with what we're given. I am in facilities engineering and have to work and plan with the annual budget I am allocated. Every year my section chief asks for more because we've servicing 30- and 40-year-old buildings that have deferred maintenance backlogs that are getting longer every year, and we usually get less.

"DO MORE WITH LESS" is the veiled message everywhere it seems - including the health care industry (that's scary). Or what I am seeing over the long run is the old adage come true, "YOU GET WHAT YOUR PAY FOR" and "YOU GET LESS WITH LESS."

I am sorry for the soapbox rant, but the lightbulb finally went off and I had to share it...though many of you likely already realized all this. I kind of feel sorry for Dave Olson...he's stuck like many of us are, we have to make do with less, ugh.

@Paul Kallus posted:

I don't think there's a conspiracy at Lionel, that's ridiculous in itself. However, what I am seeing via cheaper motors, cheaper drive systems, rolling stock made in Vietnam, and last but not least lack of a handheld controller, is a cost-budgeting situation.

I hope this didn't stop you from getting your preorders in....today was the last day.

@RickO posted:

I hope this didn't stop you from getting your preorders in....today was the last day.

Roger-that. I hemmed and hawed for weeks now. The 20th anniversary PE stuff pulled me over into the abyss, and around 4 PM today I made a phone call to Charles Ro. Factor in the previously announced Vision Line Triplex and I am in deep do-do

@Paul Kallus posted:

I never realized it until now: what if you buy a Legacy engine for the first time and have no other way besides conventional to run it? Unless I am missing something, you're only recourse is to run it via the LionChief App and your cell phone. Does that explain the ridiculous high prices for the 990 set?

You can also use the Bluetooth Universal Remote to operate Legacy engines that also have BT.