B&A Berkshire, where's the whistle mystery solved.

Some of those smaller Berks just don’t have the room inside the shell …..I’ve recently added a Legacy Berk chassis to a B&M Kline Berk, and even without any electronics in there it’s pretty dang tight in there,….I’m not 100% familiar with the B&A Berk, so are they about the same size as the B&M?….I know Lou ( Lou1985) did an IC Berk with a Legacy chassis and a Kline shell, and he did PS3, maybe he can agree or disagree on just how tight it is in there,…..or perhaps as as you mentioned, maybe they just plumb forgot,…

Pat

@RickO posted:

Ah ha!

Here's the old thread where I asked the same question. It appears ,the whistle is actually located next to the stack. At least in these photos anyway.

(Be sure to view the photo link I posted on this other thread as well)

https://ogrforum.com/...ire-whistle-location

That's the B&M version of the first berks.

Very interesting. Good problem solving to figure this out. I have noticed some engines having the whistle up front, not quite like these though.

I can't tell if that's a whistle or not next to the stack.  No clear view here either.

https://nycshs.files.wordpress...14/10/baaclasses.pdf

I have a book titled "Berkshire Days on the Boston & Albany" that has numerous photos of B&A Berkshires. In some, a little nub just in front of the turret can be seen and is probably the whistle. Several other pictures show "whistle steam" that seems to confirm the position. My K-Line model of A-1a #1407 has what looks like a short, small-diameter whistle just ahead of the turret and slightly offset to the engineer's side - color is black - not brass. The location on my model seems to match the circled location in the OP photo. Reply here if you would like to see a photo of the model.

MELGAR

In my opinion the pic I posted looks more like a whistle than the others, but being a arm chair rail fan I’m no expert.  I could very well be like the bell, they were re positioned in different spots over their career, but keep researching this.  We’ll figure it out.

Looks like a safety valve to me. Small inlet, larger outlet.

@RickO posted:

Heres an excellent high quality photo Gary.  When you zoom in it  looks like it might be whistle. Theres a large port at the base of the whistle. No clue what that is. Unless its something else, maybe these locomotives have 2 whistles?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/alcomike/46412636982

Now, to get this to Lionel so they don't offer a whistle steam feature and no whistle

Looks like the whistle is tapped off a supply line for maybe the generator?….this would coincide with Jack’s statement that the whistle is air operated and not by lanyard or linkage, …..I looked at that pic too, I didn’t see an air line or anything else, but that doesn’t mean it’s not there,….

Pat

@RickO posted:

Heres an excellent high quality photo Gary.  When you zoom in it  looks like it might be whistle. Theres a large port at the base of the whistle. No clue what that is. Unless its something else, maybe these locomotives have 2 whistles?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/alcomike/46412636982

Now, to get this to Lionel so they don't offer a whistle steam feature and no whistle

That's definitely not a whistle.  Looks to be a consolidated type safety valve, probably to prevent over-pressurization of that pipe.

https://valves.bakerhughes.com...5411543-safety-valve

Most whistles commonly used on U.S. locomotives have the same basic form going back to pretty much the beginning.  At the simplest, they have a bell on top.  Early ones could have just been a tube with a flat or shaped top, later ones were cast and had visible "steps" depending on the height of each "chime".  Under the bell is a bowl with a languid plate in the center which directs the steam at the proper angle/velocity to strike the bell and make the sound. There is a surprising amount of precision needed in machining these parts to make a whistle sound right.

Some whistle bowls have an integrated valve, others (generally earlier on and non-locomotive applications) used a separate valve elsewhere in the plumbing.  The one below is a five chime whistle from a C&NW locomotive.  It has a horizontal valve and is a flange mounted base vs the threaded connection often used.  At the very least it's a good representation of the basic shape you'd be looking for.

Now if you blow my pic up where I circled, doesn’t that look like the top of the whistle pictured above? Thanks for posting Jake.

@superwarp1 posted:

Now if you blow my pic up where I circled, doesn’t that look like the top of the whistle pictured above? Thanks for posting Jake.

I'm thinking so, although it's still difficult to tell for sure.  

This is beginning to be one of those needle in the haystack topics. I don't know if these are covered in one of my NYC books as they do list some B&A in there, but not sure if there are close up pics. I think it is called something like NYC Steam Power or something like that. It's a paperback book, I think about 100 or so pages. I'll look tonight to see if there is anything in there.

@RickO posted:

Now, to get this to Lionel so they don't offer a whistle steam feature and no whistle

Noted

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

This is beginning to be one of those needle in the haystack topics. I don't know if these are covered in one of my NYC books as they do list some B&A in there, but not sure if there are close up pics. I think it is called something like NYC Steam Power or something like that. It's a paperback book, I think about 100 or so pages. I'll look tonight to see if there is anything in there.

I’m looking through all my Stuaffer’s NYC books,  All my B&A books, still have a dvd to review.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...0998379309/sizes/4k/

@superwarp1 posted:

I’m looking through all my Stuaffer’s NYC books,  All my B&A books, still have a dvd to review.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...0998379309/sizes/4k/

Sorry Gary, worked late got home late, got side tracked. The book I have is called New York Central Steam Power In The Empire State. There was only one photo with a B&A Berkshire A1-a #1408 from Ed May. The photo was taken in 1946 I think, and was on page 37 of this book. In the comments about it, it said that the next series in these books would feature Ed May's photos and be entirely of the B&A. You may have the book. I would figure looking up any of that which I just mentioned may yield something or be right were we still are. The photo was on the engineer's side and low looking up, so no chance of seeing a whistle.

I just did a search on 1408 on my break here at work and looked at some images. Well, besides a few pictures of 1408, 1400 and 1435 popped up. There are good pictures of those two, but I think the smoke/steam that is in them is probably from a dynamo since it is back towards the cab and is more of a constant cloud than a spray like a whistle.

I'm sure that there are more pictures out there, just have to dig a bit more. Have a look at those and maybe order one of the books from Amazon unless you already have it.

Here's a pic from are good friend Mario Centralfan 1976 of a IC berk, which is copy of the B&A berks.

@superwarp1 posted:

Here's a pic from are good friend Mario @CentralFan1976 of a IC berk, which is copy of the B&A berks.

Well, that's where my PSC whistle is going...

I think the HO guys know where it goes.  This HO model from Division Point????  Sold for 2500 or more????  Pic also from Mario.

That is a sweat looking engine.

@superwarp1 posted:

I think the HO guys know where it goes.  This HO model from Division Point????  Sold for 2500 or more????  Pic also from Mario.

That is a sweat looking engine.

God that thing is sweet looking, ….looks like this is a wrap then,…I’m convinced…looks like there’s gonna be a run on PSC whistles, …no??..nice research work Gary!.

Pat

@RickO posted:

Now ....to see if Dave can "shoehorn" plumbing for the whistle steam between the shell and the large can motor in the firebox setup of the first Legacy version.

I've already got on my hands and knees asking for a Green version.  Maybe I should be asking Ryan also.

@superwarp1 posted:

Here's a pic from are good friend Mario Centralfan 1976 of a IC berk, which is copy of the B&A berks.

That is pretty cool. I saw a picture of 1454 just now in the prior search I did, and it does look like there is a little nub about there. Hard as heck to make out on the phone. The one clear picture I was looking at earlier this morning that looked like a cord up front, was for the bell which could almost be made out fairly clear. Little bit of smoke covering part of it.

I think I would definitely go for a green B&A too Gary. Would be nice to have some B&A on my railroad roster. Maybe my layout will get some build time, just have to get going.

Check out this killer paint job by Division point.  This is the puppy I want with Legacy.   You can check out division point slide show here.

Division Point Berkshire project.

@RickO posted:

Now ....to see if Dave can "shoehorn" plumbing for the whistle steam between the shell and the large can motor in the firebox setup of the first Legacy version.

Even if Lionel won’t, I’d bet Bruk or Sid could figure it out,….maybe the Legacy doctors would take on such a task,..😉

Pat

@RickO posted:

Have you seen the GN 0-6-0 or the Rio Grande Challenger? It will take a miracle for Lionel to get that green right.

I was thinking the same thing. It would be great to get that green and not the "where did we come up with this color green" green.

Thanks to @Dave Olson  this where the whistle is going on the new berks in the 2022 catalog.  Front of the Poppets

Now if they could just tool up that small tender. It wouldn’t go to waste. Plenty of NYC and even Rutlands use it. They could even do a B&A Hudson with one. Yes I have seen pics. of a Berk. with the Hudson Tender behind it. They’re just kind of rare and at the very end of steam. Not sure what the other roads used. Surely it wasn’t a NYC style Hudson tender.
2 runs now of B&A Berks. Still no proper caboose. You can redo a plastic one from 80’s tooling. If they can do some brass Hybrid engines. they have a connection with a brass builder. What’s another 400 for a proper caboose.

The green Division Point one surely does pop.  If it’s done as a custom run.  Let’s hope they can nail the shade of green.

@harmonyards found a nice B&A tender; from the MTH Blue Comet if IIRC.

Mario, that must be the one I keep checking the auction site for. At times they have shells for sale. When MTH was doing the J2 Hudson. I suggested using that tender. It looked pretty close. Just not sure of what the piece sitting on the tender deck does.

If 3rd rail ever gets the H10 project moving forward. I’d be in for a couple of rolling tenders if they offered them as a separate sale.

@Dave_C posted:

2 runs now of B&A Berks. Still no proper caboose. You can redo a plastic one from 80’s tooling. If they can do some brass Hybrid engines. they have a connection with a brass builder. What’s another 400 for a proper caboose.

Gonna need most of that $400 to cover the price increase vs the original Legacy run. These are small locomotives, not much bigger than a mike. If I recall correctly, folks weren't thrilled with the $1099 early buy price of the last run, and these didn't sell well.

I had one, outside of the detailing it was kinda ho hum so I sold it.  Is a whistle that exists and smokes justification for a $350 price jump on a small-ish loco? I guess we'll see.

@RickO posted:

...These are small locomotives, not much bigger than a mike. If I recall correctly, folks weren't thrilled with the $1099 early buy price of the last run, and these didn't sell well...

They are very compact.  As was nearly all of the NYC's power... If you look at @harmonyards' H10b Mikado he just finished, you can see just how short the locomotive is, even compared to the tender.  In fact, next time there's a NYC Hudson or Berkshire up and running, park it next to comparable Santa Fe or UP power and you'll see just how much of a size difference there is.  Just another reason I love the NYC!

Rick, I agree. It is a small Loco. Put a Mikado beside one and they are about the same. Which is what it evolved from. Certainly not like a NickelPlate.  I have both K-Line versions and 2 Legacy’s. One a relettered Michigan Central. If you purchased the original Legacy. You were shortchanged on the Whistle Steam that was advertised. I guess they figured it out.

A proper as built tender. I might be interested even at the price increase. I just think with the size of the engine. The small tender looks better. The later A3’s used a tender similar to the L2a Mohawks. I’m not big on smoke features. So I’m going to pass on this one.

@CentralFan1976 posted:

They are very compact.  As was nearly all of the NYC's power... If you look at @harmonyards' H10b Mikado he just finished, you can see just how short the locomotive is, even compared to the tender.  In fact, next time there's a NYC Hudson or Berkshire up and running, park it next to comparable Santa Fe or UP power and you'll see just how much of a size difference there is.  Just another reason I love the NYC!

Agreed. Just equating price with what you get that's all. I don't want to rain on anyone's parade either, it's an observation. The only reason I'm mentioning it is because I recall the lack of enthusiasm the last time around.

Having said that. Lionel did redesign these for a large reward facing can motor. Lets hope they didn't abandon this design for the sake of whistle steam.

These early berks were souped up. Mikados.   And the last time Lionel did this engine they all sold out and you don’t see them anywhere for sale.

@Dave_C posted:

Now if they could just tool up that small tender. It wouldn’t go to waste. Plenty of NYC and even Rutlands use it. They could even do a B&A Hudson with one. Yes I have seen pics. of a Berk. with the Hudson Tender behind it. They’re just kind of rare and at the very end of steam. Not sure what the other roads used. Surely it wasn’t a NYC style Hudson tender.
2 runs now of B&A Berks. Still no proper caboose. You can redo a plastic one from 80’s tooling. If they can do some brass Hybrid engines. they have a connection with a brass builder. What’s another 400 for a proper caboose.

The green Division Point one surely does pop.  If it’s done as a custom run.  Let’s hope they can nail the shade of green.

Another question to ask Ryan in a couple of weeks

@superwarp1 posted:

These early berks were souped up. Mikados.   And the last time Lionel did this engine they all sold out and you don’t see them anywhere for sale.

As I recall. There was extras on dealer shelves for many months before they "sold out".

Folks were waiting for blowouts. Not wanting to spend the $1099 price tag. Especially after being duped with the lack of whistle steam . I felt the same, but took my preorder.

Prices held for a long time. A few may have been "blown out" (for $899? )at the very end.

Did you buy one from the last run Gary? I know you have the green K Line version.

I believe comparison to the K Lines pricing was also part of the discussion.  Not unlike the Mth vs Lionel in the new catalog.

No I did not get the last run.  I like double heading my berks and only having one berk with Legacy when I had two already didn’t make sense at the time but a decision i regretted.  Now I have a second chance.  

K-Line is my only and ever…

@CentralFan1976 posted:

@harmonyards found a nice B&A tender; from the MTH Blue Comet if IIRC.

Yes, the MTH Premier Comet tender shell is a good stand in for these small B&A and NYC tenders …..I’m using one for my pseudo B&A K6 ….this whole project is your fault Mario,…🤨

Pat