Barry's Book?

The book is everything all of you said it would be.  Very interesting and well written (easy to follow as well).

I agree with the well written and easy to follow, good content as well. It is in good, logical order too.

Content is important, being readable makes all the difference. I have a couple of other model rail road books that are almost un-readable, their author's convoluted writing just ruins the read for me. Very hard to follow. I sometimes have trouble reading my own stuff as well.

RAK,

   Along with Barry's DCS O Gauge Companion 3rd Addition I also have a few other DCS/Legacy educational references,  including the new Modern O Gauge Remote Control, TMCC/Legacy Basics, & the OGR  Video Guide to DCS along with the 4 DVD Lionel Nation Collector's Set.  All have great information in them.  Lots of great educational info on our Hobby out here, with Barry's DCS O Gauge Companion  at the top of the list.

Have fun

PCRR/Dave

IMHO it is insane that a manufacturer brings a product to market and that same company cannot include proper documentation to support said product.  

WHY should the consumer have to pay BIG BUCKS for 3rd party documentation in order to learn how to operate a product that has flawed manufacturers documentation? 

I own exactly one DCS locomotive and wish that I didn't.

SantaFEJIm,

    I can't disagree more, MTH gives the basic instructions needed to run their equipment, and many runners use it and nothing else, in fact RJR and I have had conversations as to the mandatory need of further instructions in some of our posts.  However IMO this is not our Fathers and Grandfathers  non-technical hobby any more, and having an experienced technical individual like Barry, take the interest to pass on his engineering knowledge is a plus most large companies seldom if ever experience.   I am a Professional (PWE) Engineer that is payed very highly for my Engineering Knowledge, Barry's experience & Engineering Technical writing abilities are not going to be found inside the MTH company, your train would cost 5 times what it does for MTH to provide you with that experience and technical direction,  that you seem to think should come with each sale MTH makes.   All that being said it would be a great idea for MTH to provide as an add on option/additional cost, both Barry's DCS O Gauge Companion book, and Rich Melvin's OGR DCS Video Guide.  

Lionel with their TMCC/Legacy packaging could offer the same thing, even with their on line educational videos, with the new Modern O Gauge Remote Control - TMCC/Legacy Basics Video, of course  again this would also be for an additional cost.  

Understand these books and videos are not cheap to produce and the public should pay for the engineering expertise and development of these products, they are over and above the normal MTH and Lionel instructions that should be provided when purchasing an O Gauge Remote Control Train package.  If a runner does not want the added cost he or she can always run his trains in a conventional manner, which many still do.

PCRR/Dave

Jim,

WHY should the consumer have to pay BIG BUCKS for 3rd party documentation in order to learn how to operate a product that has flawed manufacturers documentation? 

Big bucks? Really?

The eBook version of The DCS O Gauge Companion is 242 pages long and retails for $14.95. A used freight car costs more.

I own exactly one DCS locomotive and wish that I didn't.

What is it and how much do you want for it? I'll bet you want more than $14.95.  

Gentlemen,

     Barry makes a good point here, if it was my work being sold, you can bet it would never  go for the $14.95 cost he allows it to be purchased at, the soft back book would Start at $50.00 and IMO he should put out a Collectors addition Hard Back Book for $65.00 unsigned, $80.00 signed addition, to make more money for himself.  If this engineering knowledge was mine to sell, it would start at $25.00 for the ebook alone, Barry also allows us to make work copies of his technical engineering work at no cost, after purchasing his soft back book.  This in itself is hardly ever permitted, in the technical direction/engineering world.  

His Cost is exceptionally low in reality!

PCRR/Dave

Barry's experience & Engineering Technical writing abilities are not going to be found inside the MTH company, your train would cost 5 times what it does for MTH to provide you with that experience and technical direction,  that you seem to think should come with each sale MTH makes.

PCRR/DAVE

Sure would like to know how you cam came up with that cost estimate?  

Five times more... Gimme a break.  

I would like to answer those that feel Barry's book, 

• "is not worth the money"
• "is too expensive"
• "should be supplied by MTH for free"

My answer is, DON'T BUY IT and figure out the in's and out's by yourself.   Meanwhile, folks like myself can continue to enjoy DCS and have Barry's book as a handy reference to help us out of jams if they arise.  

IMHO, I got my money's worth the first time I "needed an answer".

Manuals typically document the what; Barry's book documents the how. It's like commenting about how easy it was to repair something around the house, after you paid an expert to do it and saw how it was done. More than just a "book", you're paying for Barry's hard-earned experience.

SantaFeJim posted:

I own exactly one DCS locomotive and wish that I didn't.

I'll be happy to pay for shipping if you really don't want it....

Thanks for reminding me guys.  I've been a Lionel guy for 50 years.  I'm new to MTH/DCS and TMCC, but own both. I prefer DCS.  Barry has helped me with more than one DCS problem in the six months I've been using it.  The system and the trains are fabulous - that is, when they work, haha.  

I keep forgetting to buy the book, but I will do it now...

Jerry G.

I no longer use DCS (or TMCC/Legacy), at least for my steamers (all 8 BPRC), I still have 3 diesels with DCS and 3 with TMCC/Legacy, 2 more are currently un-powered.

Barry, GunrunnerJohn, GGG, and several others have been a tremendous help, by book or by forum responses.

Ya know, NOBODY has to answer the questions we post on this forum, how would you like to receive a bill in the mail every time you ask a question and get an answer that may have saved you hundreds of $$$?  Or even worse, not get an answer at all?

Barry's book (and all the answers we get on this FREE forum) may not be mandatory, but it sure makes things easier and well worth the $$$.

And for that all you folks that provide answers get:

THANK YOU!

This got interesting.   

I agree with points made by all sided here to some degree.  The book is quite likely worth every penny in the information it provides.  It sounds like Mr. B does a fantastic job of explaining things in layman's terms, and that the book tells you every in and out of the DCS system.  I have no argument with the author profiting off whatever percentage he does from the sale of the book from those that find it useful.  In addition I think I would quite enjoy reading about some of the sections on WHY things work a certain way.  

On the other hand I agree with Jim that the HOW should be covered in the material that comes with the system.  especially when that system has so many little intricate things that may have to be done to allow it to operate properly.  When you scroll up this post to the comments that this book is the bible, or required for anyone running DCS, you see the problem that I think is at the forefront here.  The manufacturer's documentation must be woefully inadequate if a 3rd party book is "required".  

On the other hand the documentation that came with the original TMCC base and that now comes with the Legacy base seems to contain all of the needed information to run the system for most users.  The only issues not covered that I can recall coming up are ground plane problems with original TMCC on multi layer layouts, and possibly needing a signal booster on the serial connection if you have many devices connected on the legacy base.  Of course these problems have been addressed for free by third parties.  Lionel even was generous enough to provide the command table to communicate with their command system from a 3rd party device, right from the start with TMCC, and several years after release for Legacy.  That information is not available in any published source that I am aware of for DCS, though I know at least one person here on the forum has cracked the code.  

TLDR:  Probably a wonderful book with lots of extra, awesome information, but if it's something you NEED to know to make your system work, it should be in the original documentation.  

JGL

JGL,

   The difference is the Lionel TMCC/Legacy is basically a plug and play engineering operation that only controls itself, the DCS is a much more complex engineering program that can even run 90% of the TMCC/Legacy, and many people do use just the MTH instructions to run their DCS.  Also Lionel has it's on line educational videos that are actually IMO funded by the purchase of the TMCC/Legacy system and the engines, which is why the Lionel product cost much more than the DCS, you pay for the engineering in one manner or another.

PCRR/Dave

Dave, I understand the point you'r making, but to me plug and play is a good thing.  Also, when you say dcs is more complex... only slightly, from a technical standpoint.  The two way communication is nice, but does not provide much more functionality in my opinion.  As for running tmcc/legacy, that is not really anything special, the dcs system doesn't actually run any TMCC, it just sends out the codes lionel provided  in the original book that came with the command base.  I've done the same thing with a commodore 64 for fun, and routinely connect the tmcc base to a pc or ardunio for control.  You can't pat dcs on the back for using information Lionel published in the manual, more than 20 years ago, especially when discussing what is not in the manual of DCS.  Legacy/tmcc could just as easily be kluged to talk to dcs if the protocols were made public.  Sending 3 bytes of data over a serial cable is not rocket science.  

As for cost, I will agree that you get a little more bang for your buck initially with the TIU and AIU, however for technical minded folk, the fact that the codes are published means that one can build their own TMCC compatible switch and accessory controllers,  My 16accessory/8switch controller cost about $30.  

I don't really want to stray off into a measuring contest between systems.  I have made my own judgements after polling the community here on what features each system offers and what problems each has, but for the most part both are just fine.  when it comes down to it, however, the original point still stands, if you NEED to know something to make use of the system, it should be in the documentation that comes with the product.  

JGL

I will chime in on this...Barry's book is more than worth the money.  It has helped me more times than I can say.  Not only that, I have kind of panicked a couple of times, and posted questions here on the forum.  Barry among other have come to the rescue every time.  As for the FARGO dude, I will purchase your dcs locomotive if you want to sell it.  I have numerous dcs and tmcc locomotives, and I love each one.

Barry offers his advice free to anyone who asks on this forum and has done so for longer than I have been a member.  I own his book because of that reason and it is saved on the desk top for quick reference.  With that said santafejim is right in that, in any other market that I can think of, if an entrepreneur introduced a product with customer support so lacking that consumers needed to pay a third party to explain it, it would (deservedly so) be a miserable failure.  In my opinion MTH leaves a huge void, Barry and this forum does us a great service by filling it.  

In an attempt to hijack this thread I have been wondering if dcs is too complicated for those of us who only run our trains to make kids smile and amuse adults who ask?  My trains only start due to the previous reasons and occasionally after I have taken care of my family, business, and misc obligations.  After a month or two neglect my dcs rarely functions 100%

Gentlemen,

    MTH does provide the basic instructions for setting up and running DCS, lots of people use it and only it, to set up & run their P2/P3 Trains.  RJR and I have bantered this back and forth on the forum, however IMO if you own DCS and want to eliminate the learning curve and a lot of frustration, Barry's book is the Bible on setting up and running DCS.   Heck I wanted Barry to make a Video out of his Companion, the same way Bob Philips did with Modern Remote Control,  TMCC & Legacy just recently.  You see there are 3rd parties making Instructional Videos even of TMCC & Legacy, even with it's own Lionel Instructional Video's Program available directly from the company on line.  Rich Melvin and the OGR team have a great DCS Video Guide, that IMO is a absolute must for all DCS beginners, who want to eliminate the learning curve.  Many people believe all this engineering knowledge should be given to them when they purchase a product,  it's not the way the world works,  when you buy a car they do not teach you how to drive it, they give you some over all instructions, on how to use it, same as MTH does with their DCS.  Engineering is engineering whether its with Toys, Computers, Automobiles or Double Guns, it's up to the individual owner to learn how to operate what he has purchased.  The manufacturing companies directions can only explain so much, about how to use their product.

PCRR/Dave

SantaFeJim posted:

IMHO it is insane that a manufacturer brings a product to market and that same company cannot include proper documentation to support said product.  

WHY should the consumer have to pay BIG BUCKS for 3rd party documentation in order to learn how to operate a product that has flawed manufacturers documentation? 

I own exactly one DCS locomotive and wish that I didn't.

 

It is insane that a 3rd party has to write a book to help folks operate any of their equipment.  MTH, Lionel, or anything.

I completely disagree that the book Barry wrote is "Big Bucks".  This book is a bargain for the amount of information that is in it. 

I was given a complete DCS set the week it was first released, early in the century.  The instructions that came with it were far less than the manual now included.  Notwithstanding that my conventionally-wired layout was quite large, those instructions were adequate for me to get the layout up and running, and running well.  Years later, when Barry released his 1st Edition, I did buy a copy to have a detailed reference manual available.  My point is that what came with the DCS set was adequate.  Just as when you buy a car, in the glove box is an owners manual, which is adequate (usually) to cover operation.  But if you really want to get into the details (very few people do), the shop manual can be had for a few hundred dollars. 

SFJim, if you really wish you didn't own a DCS loco, I would refer you to the buy-&-sell portion of the OGR forum.

RJR,

   I got that same 1st DCS, I remember it had Greek inscription on the bottom, I believe between the 2 of us we have a few years working with the DCS.  I know before Barry wrote his 1st book I use to drive him crazy with questions, that he was always nice enough spending time with me answering.  My real problem in those days was I was trying to make the DCS do more than it was capable of at that time.  When Marty F found the Magic light addition, it really eliminated a lot of the signal loss problems also.  Having Barry write the technical directions IMO made the DCS learning curve mostly a thing of the past.  It's one of the reasons I keep telling new people to DCS to purchase his book, our hobby is not just plug and play any more,  and I actually enjoy it more because of the fantastic more complex remote control.  Sure I like Legacy also with it's plug and play FasTrack Switches, and DCS & Legacy together are IMO the best way to run a layout today.  Barry also covers this DCS/Legacy set up in his book.  In reality the book is massive DCS/Legacy education for minimal money.  If Barry would ever make a educational video out it, the thing would sell like hot cakes.  Rich Melvin did a great Job with the OGR Video Guide to DCS, although a little dated now, still a great instructional video, especially for beginners in DCS.  Rich in his own way is better at these instructional videos than Bob Phillips, although Bob does a great job with his TMCC/Legacy video's also.  The quality of the technical writing and instructional videos available for both DCS & Legacy are truly outstanding,  I dreamed of engineering stuff like this for my toy trains when I was kid, and have now lived long enough to see it actually come true.  The great thing is if you want to only run convention you can, but if you like remote control like I do, these DCS & Legacy systems are cutting edge engineering systems.

PCRR/Dave

 If Barry would ever make a educational video out it, the thing would sell like hot cakes.

Don't even think such a thing.  He's hard enough to work with now.  Imagine how it would be if he were on the first page of Variety.  Imagine the headline:  "BARRY B GETS PRODUCER OF THE YEAR AWARD"

In a more serious vein, there's a fine line between apprising train operators of a source for all information, and scaring them off from DCS by leading them to think you need an encyclopedia to operate it.  This is a subject upon which many opinions could be engendered.

I bought barry's first book and it is very useful saves a lot of time asking questions on the forum i plan on ordering the third book time to update.  Think barry's book is expensive , just think about all the time spent doing these for what he charges, worth every penny imo.  chief

I appreciate the Canadian market is tiny. That said, I rarely buy any book not sold on amazon.ca and eligible for "prime." Rarely really means pretty much "NEVER!"

Reason is shipping! Every book I've ever seen not on amazon comes with unacceptably high shipping costs. Not at all unusual to have shipping actually exceed the cost of a book! I don't know what it takes to get amazon.ca to carry a book eligible for their prime "Free shipping," but I'd buy Barry's stuff in a heatbeat if it were. Otherwise, nope.

Terry, buy the digital copy. 

Terry,

   RJR is giving you great advise, everything in the soft back is in the digital book also, and you guys in Canada can get it immediately, well worth the small cost also.  I like the soft back because I like to write notes in it and use it track side, even made work copy one time that walked off somehow!  Get the Digital Book Copy and avoid the massive shipping cost to Canada!

PCRR/Dave

Great suggestion!

But "Shopatron?"

Never heard of it until this moment. Not at all clear how to open an account??

Shopatron is MTH's contractor to distribute various items.

The 2nd edition was available on Amazon for the entire time that it was available. It was also available on Amazon in the EU and Great Britain. I was never explicitly given the option to have it available on Amazon in Canada. I simply assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that this was because Amazon US included Canada.

Regardless, the 3rd edition is not available on Amazon at present. If I make it available on Amazon at all, it won't be until, perhaps, sometime next year. The reasons, of which there are several, are best kept to myself.

Barry I can only assume that listing on amazon costs you $$ somehow. Not a merchant so I don't know. But I did check amazon.ca for your book about 9 months back. It was not available. On amazon.com, yes it was, but with painful shipping costs to Canada.

It's the way it is for Canadians. I don't expect you to solve the matter.

I am still mystified by the Shopatron stuff though. MTH is making it hard for me to spend my $$! And hard for me to buy your book!