Batteries

I wouldn't say "potential disaster." I'd let them in their boxes.

So there should not be a problem with battery leakage and it is OK to leave them alone for now?  Do Atlas, MTH and Lionel all use the same type battery?  Thank you for your help.

Atlas and Lionel use 9 volt "transistor" batteries and they are optional and to my knowledge never installed at the factory.  MTH has used a series of NiCads of various shapes and sizes.   These are fairly resistant to leaks and they are usually buried in the electronics to removal/replacement is a separate issue.  

PS-2 and PS-3 loco's will not run until the battery is fully charged.  PS-1 loco's MAY get scrambled by trying to operate without a charged battery.  If any of your collection are PS-1 these should be charged before trying to operate and if they are over five years old the battery should be replaced before doing anything with them.  NiCads have a shelf live of around five years.

Chuck,

PS-2 and PS-3 loco's will not run until the battery is fully charged.

You'll wait a long time for a PS3 engine to charge a battery - since it doesn't have one.

I suggest you do NOT leave batteries in anything that is going to be stored for a long period of time!  The myth of leakproof batteries is just that, a myth!  I've seen NiCad and NiMH rechargable batteries as well as Alkaline and zinc/carbon batteries all leak.  I recently bought a used MTH PS/1 locomotive with the MTH battery in it.  It had significant leakage, however it didn't do any real damage other than a couple of spots on the tender chassis.  It was fortunate that the leakage was all pretty much contained in the plastic holder.  If it were in there longer, hard to say what would have happened...

I agree with Chuck about Lionel, I've never gotten a new one with a battery, so if you haven't opened them, you don't have a battery issue with those.

Thanks for the catch Barry.

Can I pre-charge an MTH battery in a standard wall mount battery charger?

Sure, as long as it's compatible with the battery chemistry.

All the MTH engines I have are PS-2.  How difficult is it to access the battery.  Would I just remove some screws from the bottom and lift off the shell or is this too simplistic an expectation?  I know I will eventually have to handle the engines but I'm afraid that I'll break off some detail part or mess something up trying to take the shells off and putting them back on.  Once the battery is removed I assume that I would need to purchase new ones when I finally start to operate the trains.

Battery access is all over the map on PS-2 engines. Newer engines hold the battery in a bracket; some of the older ones have it held in place with double-sided tape, as is the case with most PS-1 engines. Location is various; quite a few of them have the battery taped to the top of the speaker magnet. Some are easy to get at, some aren't. I've had to remove the electronic board to get at the battery, but I can't remember if that was only on PS-1 or if that applies to early PS-2 as well. Removing the shell is generally not too hard, but there are exceptions. The worst is the Milwaukee Road Bi-Polar electric. That locomotive is in three segments, which require three hands to reassemble. That one is the only PS-2 locomotive I bothered to replace the battery with a BCR; I never want to take another one of those things apart again. 

Most of the batteries are easy to access.  As mentioned in the previous post, there are obviously exceptions.

I suggest you do NOT leave batteries in anything that is going to be stored for a long period of time!  The myth of leakproof batteries is just that, a myth!  I've seen NiCad and NiMH rechargable batteries as well as Alkaline and zinc/carbon batteries all leak.  I recently bought a used MTH PS/1 locomotive with the MTH battery in it.  It had significant leakage, however it didn't do any real damage other than a couple of spots on the tender chassis.  It was fortunate that the leakage was all pretty much contained in the plastic holder.  If it were in there longer, hard to say what would have happened...

Agreed! Although I never had a major ni cad leak in the MTH loco, I did see crystalization at the 9Volt connector so taking out the battery for long term storage in Ps1 is a smart thing to do!

I know that on my RK Mohawk and Lionel steam engines, the battery is easily accessible in the tender.

I bought a set of F units that had TMCC and the batteries were under a roof hatch. (And had leaked; with no damage thank god!).

After this conversation, it looks like I'm going to have to open up all of my locos and take out the batteries since they are all in storage mode.

I looked at the MTH Premier Sharknoses and it seems I have to remove the trucks to get to the screws to take off the body.  I bet this is going to be a pain for the PAs and F3s, as well... not difficult but just time consuming.

thanks,

Mario

Battery replacement in  the MTH Shark, PA and F units do not require the removal of the trucks, at least not mine.

Some of the MTH stuff that appears you have to take the trucks off can be opened with a slim screwdriver between the wheels or the wheels and side frames.  After all, most stuff you can't take the trucks off without taking the shell off!

If you have Lionel or other companies that used TMCC and they were never out of the box since they left the factory they don't have the battery installed. As for MTH Nicad batteries can leak so it would be best to remove them and replace with a BCR.

I agree with Gene H.  I'm not an MTH person.  Had most of my troubles with them.  What I do have I have replaced the battery with a BCR. Works great.  Put it on the track, turn up voltage for about 20 seconds and away it goes.  I never put a battery in my Lionel or Atlas engines.  The only think I miss by doing that (I run TMCC) is shut down sounds and that doesn't matter to me.

This is easily remedied by "shutting down" the locomotive before you remove the track power.

There is one lionel Loco that I know of that came with the 9V battery installed, the PRR

Century Club GG-1.  Certainly one case where mint in the box many not be so mint anymore.

I had that exact item in mind as well.  And it's not like a high quality alkaline was in there, it was the bulk no-brand type of battery that came pre-installled.

But since that was made much more than seven years ago(probably late 97 or early 98), probably not too likely it's in the OPs collection (but maybe he has a GG-1 addiction and may have one, I don't know )

-Dave

Dallee makes a battery replacement that is easy to install for TMCC and I think J&W also has a component to charge the BCR in a TMCC engine.

I did have one MTH engine that had a leaking Nicad. I did have to wire brush the battery holder clips to have continuity. I have installed the BCR in all my MTH PS -1 and PS-2. The BCR gives peace of mind, always starts and eliminates cab removal, especailly engines like the bi-polar.

Thanks to all for your suggestions.  I should have noted that all the MTH engines are diesels, GP-38-2, AC4400, ES44AC and an SD40-3.

What is a BCR that many of you put in your MTH locos after removing an original MTH battery?

this should explain it;

http://www.jandwelectronics.com/

Thank you bigdodgetrain for the info. This was never mentioned by my LHS so I didn't know such a fantastic item existed. That's what's so great about this forum and all the forumites. Always offering up valuable info to make our trains the best they can possibly be. Also many Kudoos and thanks to OGR for hosting this valuable forum

you're welcome.

I can't tell you how many times someone has come to the club with their MTH loco that would not run because of battery issues.  once they replaced the battery with a BCR all issues were gone.  our club president has started to keep some BCRs on hand.

I recommend that you do not remove the batteries from the MTH engines unless you are patient and skilled at replacing the shell without damaging the wire harness.  MTH batteries are sealed in plastic and as mentioned you may get some leakage or crystalization, but it would be rare and nothing like the damage from post war engine damage that most folks remember.

If your engines are stored in the house in climate controlled areas I think you will be fine.

Batteries can be located in many places depending on the type of engine and room.  Some require the boards to be removed to gain access, others are in the fuel tanks.  Some are very easy to get too.

For the narrow diesels, the risk of wire damage removing and reinstalling the shell is greater than the risk of leakage damage in my opinion.  Having said that, if you are mechanically skilled and patient in this type of work, I think opening and removing the batteries is fine.  Just remember you will need to do it again once you get your layout up and running.  G

Since I have never removed the shell from an engine I don't know if I would be patient or skilled.  I do have a foam cradle to set the engines on but now I'm not sue if I should do this.  If I do remove the batteries can I install a BCR and be done with any future tinkering?  Is there a way to determine if I would need the BCR1 or the BCR2 for my engines without taking off the shells first?  I would like to have the BCRs at hand when I do this.  What MTH engines use the 3 volt PS2 system thus necessitating battery replacement with a BCR2?  The MTH engines I have include:

• 20-2533-1 ONR GP38-2
• 20-2789-2 CP AC4400CW
• 20-2830-2 EMD SD70M-2
• 20-2877-2 CN SD40-3
• 20-2823-2 CP ES44AC

Thanks again to all for your assistance.

If the engine has the rectangular battery charging port it is the PS-2 3V system with the 2.4V AA battery.  These tend to last about 7 years plus.  The 3V systems are less susceptible to battery related operational issues.  My recommendation is do not change these out.  No cost advantage and I have yet to see a 2.4V battery leak, including my house phone which is 10 years old and still working!

The PS-2 5V boards (earlier engines) have the 8.4V battery and a round charging port or no charging port at all for very early engines.  These batteries last about 5 years max.

The 5V systems are not as reliable.  Some say leave them alone until forced to work on them.  MTH only used them a few years before transitioning to the PS-2 3V boards.

So pick your poision.  Those batteries are worth swapping out, but the risk is high of damage if not careful.

PS-1 are easier to work on and use the 8.4V battery.

Disclosure, I am a battery guy, I don't like the wait for the capacitor to charge.  In fact the new PS-3 can take up to 45 secs to charge and start the engine.  I would rather replace batteries every 5 years for 8.4V and more like 7-10 for 2.4V.  Low batteries in PS-1 do not damage the boards just cause a software conflict.  I have been 100% successful restoring early PS-1 battery issues and the later PS-1 did not get software conflicts on low batteries at the same rate as earlier ones.

Since you are not running yet and these engines are new like new, I still think better to leave them alone.

If you do open them evaluate how much you have to disturb the wire harness to get the battery out.  If too hard don't do it.  For the diesel, look at how close harness wires are to the edge of the frame and shell and be sure they don' get crushed under the shell, also where the shell post engages the frame (screw holes).   G

G,

Since I have yet to take the engines out of the box, where would I look for the battery charging port?  The GP38-2 engine is from 2004 and the others are from 2007, if that makes any difference.  Thank you for your help.

Instructions are the best at helping.  Usually they are under the loco on the frame, some times under the wheels, so you have to swivel the trucks.  The PS-2 5V that are early versions may have a switch for smoke, and small volume pot for sound, and a charging port.  Some newer larger diesels have a removeable cover on the top of the engine and the controls and charge port are under the cover.

The newer PS-2 3V and 5V replaced the smoke switch with another volume pot.  G