Batteries for PS2 engines

I'm under the impression that there are 3 different batteries for MTH "PS-2" systems:

1) The original "9 volt" battery system.

2) The newer "5 volt" battery system.

3) The latest/last "3 volt" battery system.

I always get MTH batteries at my local hobby shop.

The PS-1 and PS-2 5V system used an 8.4V rechargeable battery of 120ma/hr.  Early batteries were NiCad.  Newer versions are NiMh.  They look like 9V batteries.

As long as it is 8.4V and at least 12oma/hrs it will work.

The newer PS-2 3V system uses a 2.4V AA style rechargeable battery.  G

At GGG:

Wow, thanks!!  Looks like what I've got is what I need.  What you wrote describes it exactly.

Alan K,

   I recommend a BCR when you are going to replace batteries in your engine.

They seem to last forever and the PS-3 engines have similar BCR engineeing right in the new engines, no battery required.

PCRR/Dave

You can "roll your own" BCR clone for around $11 in parts, and it's pretty easy.  If you have a lot of locomotives to convert, the dollars add up.

I like BCR's, they probably will run the train forever. Problem is, the train will probably not last forever.

I don't like the cost. I see some on here are building their own, and I congratulate them for that. Cost them 11.50 in parts, they do the labor.

Perhaps one of them reading this would consider selling some to us at....say, $15 each! I might buy one as a test.

In the past, my 9v MTH batts cost from 10 to 12 bucks each. I found they lasted from 6 to 8 years. I was in the Rad Shk the other day, I think  as I passed by the wall they had one - I think it was around $14.

So if he buys the BCR for 20 to 25, he gets a source that may outlast the engine.

If he buys two batts in 18 to 20 years, he still spends less....and the two batts may out live the engine anyway, like the BCR might. I can see both sides to this issue.

If he has a great many engines to re-power every 8 to 10 years, it might make sense. For 3 or 4, I am not 100% convinced.

And....in Nov, I had 2 engines that needed the 9v replaced. I bought, from Walt at my LHS (if no one buys stuff from him, he probably goes out of business! Then where would I be? ) a BCR for one, and an MTH batt for the other. Maybe, time will tell the whole story. Just a few thoughts.

Greg

It takes about 10 minutes (15 tops) to build the BCR clone, and was $11 in parts.  I just knocked out another couple units, took 20 minutes total.  Rather than buy a new battery for these units, I'd rather put the BCR clone in them and be done with it.

For the newer 3V PS/2 boards, the BCR clone is less than $6 for the parts, just a 5V supercap and the battery connector.  Add a small chunk of heat-shrink and job done!

Hot Water:  I beleive that there were only 2 systems.  The so-called 5-volt system used an 8.4 volt battery.  Your 1 & 2 are the same.

Given the many years that a battery lasts, its cost vs the BCR, the loco's life expectancy, and the operator's life expectancy, I find the battery is the best deal. 

RJR,

   We definitely differ on this one, at my age I replace the battery with BCR knowing that at my age the BCR will still be working when I am running trains with the Supreme Architect.   The little extra money does not bother me, I like engineering that last a life time.

PCRR/Dave

I would agree with you on one aspect:  my heris & devisees, if they're not going to set the locos up & run them, better remove the batteries before they leak.

I know--modern batteries don't leak.  That stuff on dead alkalines is a figment of my imagination.  Any battery will leak if a seam wekaens or pressure builds up.

I only have 20 PS2 locos, but tjhere are better things to do with 20x the cost of a BCR over a battery.

I've had plenty of alkaline batteries leak and destroy stuff, usually flashlights and other small items that get forgotten for a few years in some drawer.  They sure will leak once they age!

I've seen some oxide around dead NiCad batteries at times, but only traces, never had one actually damage anything, but there's always a first time!

This has been discussed before but I'm still not sure if I remember the correct operating instructions for a BCR. Charge it up in neutral for about 20 seconds with about half throttle? If someone forgets to do that on a PS1 unit, is it at risk of being scrambled? I'm inclined to stay with batteries, a new one should be good for some years and I know about charging them occasionally if necessary. I have just two PS1 locos myself and once did a PS1 chip unscramble for someone else.

The PS1 locos should have been built with easily accessed batteries that could be removed more expediently. I modified my MTH Zephyr with an underfloor battery compartment; it was easy to do, there was plenty of room for it and it's still out of view.

BCR's are capacitors and capacitors can blow up spectacularly if they get excessive voltage, so that's maybe something to think about.

For PS/1, you do have to be somewhat careful with the BCR, as you say, a 30 second charge before you attempt to do anything is called for.

I don't think there is much risk of the BCR blowing up.  The BCR clones I'm making have a 2.7V Zener diode across the capacitors to limit the voltage to any individual cap in case the charge isn't linear.

Most of you guys are probably too young to remember the old Eveready flashlight batteries of the 1940s.  Once they went dead they promptly leaked and destroyed whatever they were in.  Then Ray-o-VAC came out with a "sealed in steel" which did not do so as quickly.  Unfortunately this led many people to leave the Ray-o-vac batteries in various devices, eventually learning that when dead, eventually even these would build up enough pressure to leak and damage the container, (which often was a Lionel diesel loco).  As a result, Ray-o-Vac got a bad name.

Bottom line, as gunrunner says, is don't trust any battery not to leak eventually.

Sadly, I remember only too well many things ruined by batteries in the early days, long before "leakproof" batteries.  The problem is, the leakproof batteries still leak!

"Eveready flashlight batteries...leak"

How many knew this? On the old Eveready batteries, was a disclaimer. It stated "if your device is ever damage by leakage, they will repair or replace the item."

Probably not many read it. Less probably took advantage. I used plenty of batteries when my son was a tot and had toys. I had flashlights, and other items that used batteries.

Quite often, the Eveready batts did leak....and ruin the item. I mailed the item in using a little postage, with a letter, and they always promptly sent a like item or a check as I recall. My son had a lot of battery operated toys.

They knew they would leak..they just did not think most people would bother sending stuff back under the warranty claim. Anyone else remember the wording on the battery...or even using the warranty?

No such wording has existed for years now! Wonder why??  :-0

Greg

Greg, I remember that statement on the Eveready batteries.  But I don't recall in what era.  Was that on the batteries back in the 1940's?  It may be that in those days the only device in which they were used were Everready flashlights.

My rememberancenwas that it was Ray-o-Vac that promised to replace....

Al W.

My rememberancenwas that it was Ray-o-Vac that promised to replace....

Al W.

 My son was born in 1974, so no, it was not the '40's- that's when I was born....but they may have done that back then.....though I seriously doubt it.

Al, sorry, my recollection was Eveready, not the Rayovac.....but then again, we are talking my memory here, and it "ain't that good! Maybe I will email them and ask!

Greg

Ace,

 To charge a BCR, apply 10 volts to the track for 60 seconds. Then interrupt the voltage to start a locomotive moving.

I remember those statements on the batteries, but I forget which brand.  I think it disappeared sometime in the 80's.

The MTH NiCad is actually 2 over sized metal button batteries at 4.3V that sit sideways in the plastic cover.  Since the plastic is sealed and the metal buttons are a better construction then the 7 1.2V AAA they don't leak liquid.  What I have noticed is that the connection point to the harness has a hole vice solid rivet.  So they can gas out and I think that is some of the corrosion found when a dead battery is left in.  Have not opened a newer style battery yet.

In my mind it is pretty easy to forget about charging the BCR and do a direction change before it is charged.  So you still need to be careful.  G

For PS/2, the BCR isn't as much of a liability, as they won't scramble their brains if the battery is low.   I am putting a little sticker on the bottom of my locomotives when I replace the battery with the BCR.

On my secondhand MTH PS1 Zephyr I was able to re-mount the battery underneath the frame where it is easily accessed for testing, charging or replacement. Too bad they didn't build the units with more accessible batteries in the first place, along with a conspicuous label about battery maintenance. It could have saved a lot of frustration and confusion for many folks.

Ace:

A very neat installation.

Al W.

Ya, a "roll your own" BCR is the way to go especially if you have a lot of engines. I think the BCR company shot themselves in the foot by not offering a reasonable discount on large quantities, they got greedy. As a result, people are making their own and they are losing the business.

When you guys put in factory or home made BCRs, do you tape over the charging port? What would happen if you were to "charge`a BCR

Mike

To summarize the topic.

If you don't mind changing the battery, save the money. I haven't heard anything about these batteries being detrimental, except with PS1, but then BCRs offer their own quirks there.

First, if you enjoy the electronics part of the hobby, build away! That's awesome, enjoy!

If you aren't that sure about your skills and don't want to risk it, what are the consequences of putting an improperly wired BCR on the track (I'm asking, I don't know?

I didn't spend a lot of time researching the price, but found both style OEM MTH batteries on Amazon for $9.96. I'm going to assume that's with a dollar of the best price. My favorite hobby shop (MB Klein, I stop in every time I go through MD on business) has BCR1s for 22.99 and BCR-2s for 17.99 each. That's less than J&W sells them direct in bulk, so I'm making the same price assumption.

So why change?

1) If you think a loco will last until it's 3rd or 4th battery, why not change it when the first battery goes? You will break even, or save.

2) If you have a diesel, or other such loco, where the battery is buried beneath electronics (my GP9 comes to mind), open it once and hopefully leave it alone.

3) In the case of a PS2 upgrade.The BCR-2 is much smaller. You know how valuable that space can be sometimes.

4) We get into periodic discussions of "would you spend more for?/shouldn't stuff be made in the USA?" J&W makes them in the USA... I'm sure they get their components for less than the $11 that we can get them for, but someone put them together and got paid. They aren't making these in large consumer electronics quantities, where they could save more. They are filling a niche at a price point.

5) So assuming an $11 home made BCR vs 18 - 23 for the premade, the delta is about what I spent, the last time I bought a Boxcar retail at my real LHS, rather than online.

6) Personal input - If my real LHS would sell the BCR, instead of having a repair guy that comes in and will "only install one for you, because it's too complicated", I'd buy them locally. One at a time, as needed.

Charging a BCR is not an issue, it's what the locomotive does as it runs.

BTW, a 3V BCR clone costs around $5, it's just a single capacitor.

I wrote to Eveready and Rayovac....so far, only a reply from the latter. Here it is:

Question:

My buddy and I are having a "discussion" and need you to help.

Did you ever have a warranty perhaps in the 70's an 80's, that said

 if your battery leaked and damaged a product, you would repair or replace it?

It was written on the battery. I say it was you, he says it was Eveready.

Can you help, one of us is senile! Greg

RESPONSE

Dear Mr. White,

Thank you for contacting Rayovac. Yes! It was about 15 years ago that
the batteries, especially our rechargeable alkaline series, came with
out battery guarantee printed on them. While Eveready/Energizer may
have, we certainly did.

Rayovac Consumer Service
601 Rayovac Drive
Madison, WI 53711

FYI............ Greg

Thanks, Greg.