Berkshire prototype?

Most people would say that Lionel's smaller steam locos didn't have a specific prototype.  That being said, the mold for the Berkshire boiler was derived from the prewar 226E, which itself MIGHT have been inspired by a New York Central Hudson.  If so, that's a tangible link to a NYC prototype.

In 1947 the tool was "modernized" with a larger sand dome, etc., giving the appearance of a larger and more modern loco which better complements the eight smaller driving wheels.  But the headlight centered on the smokebox, running boards, square cab still suggest New York Central to me.  It's fun to speculate!

Thanks, Ted, for your response.  I wasn't aware of the 226E,  but I can see the resemblance to the 726/736.  It certainly appears the 726/736 were derived from the 226E, like you said.

John

The PW Berkshire/small (non-ATSF) Hudson  shell was definitely inspired by NYC practice, as was much of Lionel's product. The original scale 700E NYC smokebox front tooling, in various simplified forms, was used into the LTI era. Even the well-modeled small ATSF Hudson (2055, etc) used a simplified descendant of the 700E/NYC smokebox front.

The NYC proper never had any 2-8-4's, but subsidiaries B&A and P&LE did - though they looked nothing like the Lionel model's boiler casting.

You guys motivated me to look through my small collection of postwar Lionel catalogs.  Besides remembering all the nice trains I drooled over - but were out of reach - I made the following observations about postwar Lionel steam (while not claiming to be an expert in any way):

1) nos. 2025 and 675, with their high headlight, keystone emblem and Belpaire firebox, clearly seem to be modeled after a K4 or other PRR prototypes.

2) nos. 2065 and 665 Hudsons, with the Elesco feedwater heater mounted in front on top of the smokebox, remind me of Baldwin P47 Pacifics like those that headed up the CNJ Blue Comet.

3) The 2056, 2055, 2046, 685, 665LTS and 646 Hudsons seem to be essentially the same.  D500, are these the ATSF Hudsons you referred to?   They don't have NYC "faces".

4) Why did Lionel like the 2-6-4 wheel arrangement?  According to the sources I have, there was no prototype with that arrangement.

I realize the answers to some of these questions may be lost to time, but I'd really like to hear any insight you may have about the inspiration for Lionel postwar steam engine designers.

John

I enjoyed Skip’s article as well.  His comments of imagining his Lionel Berkshire as a NYC Mohawk struck a chord with me.  When I was younger I enjoyed paging through my Dad’s New York Central book by Stauffer, and I thought the Mohawk looked a lot like our Lionel train, a 736 Berkshire.   In paging through the secondary listings in model railroading magazines of the time, the 726RRs we’re going for much less than the 736 and 726 Berkshires. I convinced my Dad to purchase one with the idea that we would change the wheel arrangement to a 4-8-2 as a Mohawk.  We never did the update though, as it arrived by mail order in great condition and we couldn’t bring ourselves to alter it. Ironically, when MTH came out with their initial RailKing offering in the 1990’s, they made a proper NYC L-3a 4-8-2.  I bought the set for my son, and we run it and the 736 at the holidays each year.

Lionel made Toy Trains and therefore can take liberties with their trains and pay little or no attention to prototypes or representing any real trains.

Their main interest is using the engine molds for many different variations to pay for the molds and make more money.  The above write up shows they were very successful.

Charlie

John, I agree that the 665 and 2065 are reminiscent of the Baldwin / CNJ P47 Pacific because of the Elesco-type feedwater heater, tall driving wheels, and compact length.  But the rest of the body shell is the same as the 685 / 2055, which is patterned after a Santa Fe 3465-class Hudson.  These often came with a rectangular tender, which is also similar to tenders used by the Santa Fe.

The larger Hudsons (646, 2046, 2056) use the same boiler casting as the 726 and 736 Berkshires, but with six large wheels instead of eight smaller ones.  In this sense, they are a reversion to the configuration of the parent model 226E, except with a more prototypical 4-wheel front truck.  They could be thought of as a traditional-sized version of the NYC Hudson (as opposed to the 773, which was a full 1:48 scale size.)  These are great runners, but visually they have a lot of overhang on O27 track.

The smaller 2-6-4 models beginning with the 2036 evolved from the pre- and postwar 1666.  But multiple changes to the boiler and pilot castings beginning in 1947 gave it a very modern appearance.  It's not a faithful model of any one loco, but I love the styling!  The bulky radiators on the pilot deck and large dome bristling with sanding lines remind me a lot of the of C&O Kanawha, and even the P&LE A2 Berkshires.  I always thought of these as a type of O27 Berkshire having six driving wheels instead of four.  (Full-sized Berks like the 726 could not run on O27 track.)

You didn't mention the 2-4-2 "Scout" types,  beginning with the 1684 and continuing right through the present day!  Again, no specific prototype, but I always thought these resembled the NYC H-5 Mikado (which in real life was a 2-8-2.)  The Mikado was a ubquitous freight hauler, used on all branch lines after WWI.  That's how I used my 2-4-2s (and we had a LOT of them), so I guess it makes sense to me!

@Steam Crazy posted:

3) The 2056, 2055, 2046, 685, 665LTS and 646 Hudsons seem to be essentially the same.  D500, are these the ATSF Hudsons you referred to?   They don't have NYC "faces".

John

The Lionel 2055 ATSF Hudsons do, indeed, have a version of the original NYC scale Hudson smokebox front only; the rest of the loco, including the pilot, is "pure" (for Post War semi-models) ATSF Hudson.

Here is my childhood 2055 loco; NYC scale Hudson smokebox front (face), with simplified 1-piece headlight tooling and no handrails below the headlight, for lower production costs on lower-end locos; everything else - pilot, pilot deck, boiler, domes, cab - is very nicely-done Santa Fe 3460-class heavy Hudson.