Better antennas for the Legacy command base?

Our club uses the 9dB antenna you mention, it really made a big difference in the CAB2 to base communications.  I can't imagine what risk there is of damage to the unit, you're not asking it to provide more transmit power, just using what it produces more efficiently.

As for radio restrictions, I really have no idea, but many users of 2.4ghz stuff add all sorts of special hi-gain antennas to their equipment, and I don't see any black helicopters swooping down on them.

If you are near a Micro Center store they have a large selection of antennas that are used for WiFi routers at some very reasonable prices. They have one that replaces the one that came with the Legacy system that connects in the same way without any additional wires. The antenna is about nine inches in height and has a flat blade. They also have some other types as well. They might even sell them on line.

I think the only time you might have an issue is if you used one that had a powered amplifier. That might cause a problem.

Before swapping antenna try changing channel, some channels work better than others. Also upgrade the Legacy OS to 1.52, each update since 1.3 has had better reception via a few tweaks. 

Thanks men. I appreciate your input. Legacy version 1.5 is on order and I think I will proceed with an upgrade antenna.

wes

this is the antenna some of us put on our Legacy base.

The upgraded antenna appears to violate FCC regulations.  Many low power transmitters are certified to operate only with the supplied antenna.  Upgrading the antenna may enable the unit to interfere with other radio services on nearby frequencies.

in my opinion, it's a lot like speeding...illegal, but...

As an amateur radio operator, who operates my transmitters legally, I would suggest you seek other options.  There are no limitations on receive antennas.

Ed

I'm not a betting person but I do not believe the Legacy unit falls under FCC rules as I do not see an FCC warning on my unit.

In a number of the Lionel manuals there is this statement: ( this one taken from the cab1l - base1l documentation supplied with the unit)

Other options?  Like what?  Must be a reason they made the antenna removable.

How about 2.4ghz routers?  They sell tons of replacement antennas, even the router companies sell them.  If they were so illegal, I'd think there would have been something mentioned about them.

John,

The original post asked "does it violate radio restrictions, federal or otherwise, using a higher gain antenna?"

The answer is "yes"

Other options? As Chris said "Before swapping antenna try changing channel, some channels work better than others. Alonso upgrade the Legacy OS to 1.52, each update since 1.3 has had better reception via a few tweaks.".

I'm not a Legacy user, but I seem to recall threads from NJHRs about improving the ground plane so the receiver in the loco gets a better signal. (I know, another thread discusses that it's really not a ground plane)

I've also read about improving the receive antenna in the loco, although I admit, that isn't easy to do in a fixed space moving object.

The fact that the antenna is removable may be an attempt on Lionel's part to allow you to run an extension wire to put the antenna in a better location, although extending the antenna may lose what is gained because of losses in the extension wire.

So, bottom line - it's illegal, but as I said, so is speeding, talking on a cell phone while driving, etc...

You may not see a black helicopter hovering over the house, but if someone in the area gets interference, a complaint to the FCC might bring a knock on your door.  (Then again, you might win the lottery)

Ed

Oh, by the way, 2.4 GHZ routers all come with the same FCC Statement.  Just because they sell something doesn't make it legal in all applications! 

Well, first off, the ground improvement has nothing to do with the 2.4ghz communication, that affects the 455khz track signal propagation.

Also, let's take that last statement that your argument hinges on.

Changes or modifications not expressly approved by Lionel L.L.C. could void the user’s authority to operate the equipment.

Note that they're only allowing for the possibility.  I suspect when you really delve into the FCC regulations covering the 2.4ghz public bands, you'll find that they're really keying on a power level and possible interference with other services and not the specific configuration as shipped.  If changing the antenna always resulted in a violation of FCC regulations, it's very unlikely that such devices would win FCC approval at all!  Remember, the product has to have received FCC certification to have ever made it to market. And yes, I know that WiFi routers all have a similar statement, AAMOF anything that requires FCC approval doubtless has the same disclaimer.

Every alteration or addition of an accessory to a product doesn't constitute an illegal act.

They sell guns and 200 mph Corvettes and Mustangs where we live yet you can't legally use them here!

John,

As I said, I'm not a Legacy user but as a Ham Operator, the ground plane thing made sense to me.

Power level is a combination of transmitter power AND antenna gain, so... adding a gain antenna will change ERP, effective radiated power, and violate the certification.

I agree, "Every alteration or addition of an accessory to a product doesn't constitute an illegal act.", but adding a gain antenna does.

Ed

I think that's the one I saw at Micro-Center for $9.00

John,

To further clarify,

FCC Part 15 Section 15.203

"Antenna Requirement
Changing the antenna on a transmitter can significantly increase, or decrease, the strength of the signal that is ultimately transmitted. Except for cable locating
equipment, the standards in Part 15 are not based solely on output power but also take into account the antenna characteristics. Thus, a low power transmitter that complies with the technical standards in Part 15 with a particular antenna attached can exceed the Part 15 standards if a different antenna is attached. Should this happen it could
pose a serious interference problem to authorized radio communications such as
emergency, broadcast and air-traffic control communications.
In order to prevent such interference problems, each Part 15 transmitter must be
designed to ensure that no type of antenna can be used with it other than the one used
to demonstrate compliance with the technical standards. This means that Part 15
transmitters must have permanently attached antennas, or detachable antennas with
unique connectors. A "unique connector" is one that is not of a standard type found in
electronic supply stores.

It is recognized that suppliers of Part 15 transmitters often want their customers to be
able to replace an antenna if it should break. With this in mind, Part 15 allows
transmitters to be designed so that the user can replace a broken antenna. When this
is done, the replacement antenna must be electrically identical to the antenna that was
used to obtain FCC authorization for the transmitter. The replacement antenna also
must include the unique connector described above to ensure it is used with the proper
transmitter."

One thing I have found with 2.4 aftermarket antenna's on routers is that unless you are going to spend several hundred dollars for real network signal amplifiers, most of the add-ons are crap. If you check the reviews on many of these smaller antennae some love them and some hate them without proof either way that they do or do not work.

Many here used a Hawking antennae with the early Legacy base and while some thought it was great, others said it was no better. When 1.3 came out most complaints about reception went away and most people reported going back to their original Lionel antennae

OK, now I know more than I want to about FCC regulations.  But, I have upgraded to V1.5, changed channels and installed a Hawkins antenna up near the ceiling of my L shaped train room.  I still get the dreaded red light even when I am alone in the train room and have to use my old bulletproof CAB1 whenever I have people over. 

So, I would still like to hear suggestions for better transmission to my CAB2.

Turn off any other 2.4 wireless devices (phones, routers) and see if you can find a device stepping on your signal. Or try contacting Lionel and getting an RMA. some units have been returned and swapped out due to having very poor signal

My ISP recently replaced my modem with an upgraded version. One of the features is the option of installing an external antenna in the event that there are issues with the signal. It's only recommended if the signal strength registers a CINR score of 8dBi or lower. They don't say what type of antenna only that it connects via a SubMinature version A connector.

They say to go to the device homepage and note the CINR value.

I wonder if it is possible to measure the signal strength of a Legacy unit? If so how?

BTW: I've never had an issue with signal strength. I have a small layout, 6x15 with a 2x4 yard. The Legacy base is installed underneath the front center of the layout sitting on a small shelf on pegboard near the floor.

Again, the operative word in the comment is "can".  Since I seriously doubt the Legacy base is outputting anything close to the maximum allowable power for unlicensed transmission in the ISM bands, I still think you're just creating a controversy where none exists.

I seriously doubt that we're coming anywhere close to the allowed maximums in the 2.4ghz band.  Let's not look for problems or legal violations where none exist!

Maximum Transmit Output Power in the ISM bands

Several of the FCC part 15 rules govern the transmit power permitted in the ISM bands.  Here is a summary of those rules:

The responsibility for staying within these power limits falls on the operator (or, if professionally installed, on the installer).

John,

Given that we don't know the design specs of a Legacy system, there is no way you CAN be sure Transmit Power is below 29dBm. That plus a 9 dBi antenna gain of the antenna pictured above WOULD be OK, IF we knew for sure the power of the Legacy transmitter.

I'll bet you can't get a tech at Lionel to provide that info, or get someone at Lionel to say that adding a 9dBi gain antenna is OK, so absent any hard facts, the basic rule applies as cited above...the replacement antenna must be electrically identical to the antenna that was used to obtain FCC authorization for the transmitter. 

Until you get specifications from Lionel, you can "seriously doubt" all you want.  My citations are the legal statements of Lionel and the FCC.

Adding a gain antenna IS a "change or modification not expressly approved by Lionel L.L.C., unless you can get them to re-certify with a specific antenna.  If they could, I'm sure they would sell the unit with a gain antenna, or make it an optional add on.

In any case, all of my statements are responding to the original post, that asked "does it violate radio restrictions, federal or otherwise, using a higher gain antenna?"... my answer: Yes, it does.

You or anyone else are certainly able to do whatever you want - drive faster than the speed limit, talk on a cell phone while driving, or run your legacy system at 500 watts output power!  Ultimately, as you cited The responsibility for staying within these power limits falls on the operator.

Ed

ps. Peter, your statement "OK, now I know more than I want to about FCC regulations." is the best one in the thread! 

No, we don't know the specs of the Legacy base, that would be an interesting parameter to have.

I'll stick with my chosen antennas, I don't see the black helicopters hovering around just yet.

 all this legal mumbo jumbo because someone ask about a better antenna?  Glad I didn't ask about upgrading the antenna on the Cab 1 remote.

It's the Fall isn't here so I can't play with my trains yet boredom setting in mixed in with a big dose of anal retentiveness

Don't want these guys showin up at your house!

Rick, that almost looks like an illegal antennae on the front of that chopper

Black helicopters and legal mumbo jumbo aside,

The original post asked a question about if an antenna upgrade would violate federal radio regulations. I responded accurately that it did, and backed it up with precise info.

Sorry if the answer doesn't suit some people's needs but "it is what it is"... Just trying to help the original poster by answering one of his questions.

Ed

Wes,

Contact me. I have an after Market Antenna you can try. It is one that was recommended to me prior to the Release of V1.3. It helped me a great deal. My Layout was 40' X 50'. It really improved the Range.  After the release of V1.3 I didn't need it any more. If you would like to try it, notify me and you are welcome to try it.

FREDSTRAINS 

ct 2 to compare

Tenda Wi-Fi 9dBi High-Gain Omni-Directional...

 

$9.99

 

 

Usually ships in 1-3

Originally Posted by bigdodgetrain:

Can you tell me if this is the antenna that you use?

Ray

As Fred points out after 1.3 the need for an external antennae was reduced. Those that still had issues with CAB to base issues seemed to be due hardware issues and external interference from other 2.4 wireless devices

yes it appears to be the one.  I got mine from the bay, free shipping.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-4GHz...-B-G-N-/321017871674

Wes,

I have not had a REPLY to my POST !!!

FREDSTRAINS

Wes,

Still no REPLY.  Do you want to try My Antenna or not. I have not heard from you.

No charge, postage costs only!!

FREDSTRAINS

that person has not been on this thread since aug 19, did you try to send something to their email?

wclarkdrum  @  yahoo.com

Bigdodgetrain,

No I haven't; have you?

Fred

Why do I need to contact him?

you are the one posting posts asking if he wants your antenna.

Are you using this forum to advertise a business of yours?

No, I don't own a Business. I was just trying to help the guy out. I offered to let him to try out an Antenna I had for Free. But, if he is not interested, that's fine.

Best regards,

Fred