Biggest bang for my buck - which control system?

Great question Dan! I’m following this thread as I’ll be updating mine eventually.

Timeline might be a consideration.  As of now the new Base3 still appears to be a ways off.  If I was betting I'd say MTH delivers their new WTIU's first...

I started with TMCC and then Legacy.  However, I kept seeing MTH stuff I liked as well, so I ended up with a DCS system as well.  Now I have the whole 3-rail command/control universe at my fingertips, and I'm happy with that arrangement.

Personally, I think it's a crap-shoot as to whether MTH or Lionel deliver the new command system first, but I doubt they'll be a lot of time between one and the other.

Another consideration is whether you're into steam or diesel.  Right now, not many steam releases coming from MTH, and I'm not seeing that changing any time soon.

An option is to get a TMCC system for now, there is a tested CAB1 with base with power supply on ebay for under $150 after tax and shipping. Edit, it's been sold.

IMO there is no reason to spend $500-$1000 to get old tech at this point, which is the going price for a DCS or Legacy system. Get the old cheap stuff that'll do 90% of the functions or wait for the new stuff that comes with a warranty.

Once MTH or Lionel actually comes out with their control systems you can see if you really need more than TMCC control. If so sell and I doubt you'll take a big hit.

Start off with a transformer and LC+/+2.0 and then see where your interests take you. You'll be able to run any engine in conventional mode, save for a basic LC, for which you can use the remote, and you can, of course, run the LC+/+2.0 w/remote or the app.

If you decide that you'd like to add Lionel Legacy / TMCC locomotives and MTH DCS, and take advantage of all their features, add those control systems as needed. (See this thread for more info about using Legacy and DCS concurrently.) In the meantime, you can run them in conventional mode.

Neither Lionel or MTH are releasing their new systems anytime soon.

Lots of options but none of them great right now....

A used Cab 1L or TIU, with respective  remotes do come up on the used market. Both would get you started until the new systems appear.

Neither new system will have a separate remote so smartphones or tablets will be required.

Some of us just can't make up our mind, so many good loco's out there. I have everything hooked up to my layout. Started with DCS, then added TMCC and later upgraded that to a Legacy system, now I have added in a Digitrax DCC system to the mix! Going forward everything I get will be DCC or converted to DCC, so many choices with DCC and it's available! DCC works great on 3 rails BTW.

Much of life is made of choices.  The Biggest bang for you buck for a small layout control system is easily Conventional Control.

Now the choices will include not purchasing and running modern remote controlled trains that you may desire.  Conventional control will have much lower cost postwar and MPC engines and others without the electronics.  For a small layout, modern remote controlled trains may be an over kill.

What do you want to do with model trains and what do you want?  I answered your question and you probably do not like the answer.  Have fun with your trains.

My small to medium size layout has lots of action and 31 switches and a homemade turntable, can run two trains on one track for two loops and 5 trains at once, all conventional control, with three LWs, as in the 1970s that is all there was.

Charlie

Your best bang for the buck is LionChief 2.0 Plus.  It offers control from the LionChief controller, Bluetooth Apps, or the original TMCC controller.  Once you buy an engine, see if you are happy with the Bluetooth App and the control it provides.  (Note that Lionel has promised a new full featured App concurrent with the Base 3 release).  The app is currently free.

If you want to use TMCC with your LionChief 2.0+ loco, the original CAB1 and base are relatively inexpensive and can operate three decades of TMCC loco products (many are bargains on the used market) plus the latest Legacy engines.  A used CAB1 kit (w/base and 3-prong power cube) seems to run about $150.  The CAB1 will also control TMCC-enabled switches and accessories.

The next step up is Legacy and DCS control.  The Legacy and TIU hardware currently demands unobtainium pricing.  When these products are available and "reasonably" priced (~$500 ea), they well be controlled using their respective apps.   Going back to my first statement, start with a Bluetooth app controlling a LionChief 2.0 loco(s).  Expand your system to the full Legacy and DCS controller when hardware is readily available.

I would go with the Lionel system seems they have a prototype and it may be in production but months away from being in country. MTH on the other hand has gone silent and last I heard was looking for a backer and someone to produce it as its not being done by MTH but a group of ex employees that did all things electronic for MTH. TMCC being old tech but it works well with very few problems. MTH has made some great locos but I am not fond of there electronics.

@RSJB18 posted:

Neither new system will have a separate remote so smartphones or tablets will be required.

Not true, the CAB1L will continue to be produced for folks that want the physical remote to run their TMCC/Legacy locomotives and accessories.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Not true, the CAB1L will continue to be produced for folks that want the physical remote to run their TMCC/Legacy locomotives and accessories.

Yes John.

I guess I shouldn't type with my thumbs while cooking dinner. Left out a few details. 🤪🤪

I will add to @Choo Choo Charlie 's comments. I started with conventional with  KW transformer. I only added command control last year. Most modern engines will work fine in conventional. No shame in that.

Agree with ALL the comments above.

Bang for the buck is like beauty, it is in the eyes of the beholder.

I like cheap so.... picked-up a KW that needed some help for $15 at a local train show in Oct.  "All in after my disassembly and repair $22.50".  (free labor and I love to learn how to fix stuff).  Anything you buy will run on conventional.  If you want sounds practice making them with your mouth.  I learned the technique as a kid, since that is what was available 60 years ago.  Choo Choo, CHugga Chugga Chugga, Occasionally, I think I can I think I can.  LOL

On the other hand, as you initially suggested, if you want to cover ALMOST all the bases, get a Cab3 when they are available.

So my advice, spend $25 bucks on some used transformer until then, and do what you suggested when it is available.  You know that's what you really want.

Another consideration - how important is it to you to use a dedicated remote vs. a phone/tablet?  If you want a dedicated remote, Lionel is the only game, but there's no guarantee they'll continue to produce the remote long term. 

If you're adventurous and like to tinker, there's also dead rail.  I'm in too deep to go that route, but if I was starting out I'd consider it.

Most bang for the buck, I know this is borderline sacrilegious. However there is a whole lot of used but beautiful and inexpensive scale locomotives that run PS-1 or conventional. A whole lot of reconditioned ZWs if you buy a good overcurrent protection device like a PSX1-AC. Lots of 0 tubular track and switches that can be had for free if you pay the freight.

If you can live without a remote and can go old school and run your trains with a throttle handle in your grip; you could have an impressive empire relatively cheap.

@Fast Mail posted:

Most bang for the buck, I know this is borderline sacrilegious. However there is a whole lot of used but beautiful and inexpensive scale locomotives that run PS-1 or conventional.

A lot of us got tired of that model of operation, hence the desire for command/control.

John,

As I wrote above, I was sitting across from my DCS remote and TMCC Cab1. However about a third of my equipment will run using conventional. My layout if I ever complete in this lifetime will not have a lot of walking space as such remotes will usually be next to the transformers.

When I considered the OPs question ... I couldn't resist supporting the contrary opinion

If cost is a significant issue, LionChief+, LionChief, LionChief +2.0 and recent Legacy locos will all operate using the $50 Universal Remote.  Obviously conventional is least expensive, but no remote.  The app, which isn't everyone's cup of tea, is free.  You can always splurge on a Base 3 or the DCS wi-fi TIU when they appear.

Good question, lots of good opinions here, but eventually it'll be your call.

I started off conventional and quickly added TMCC. That served me well 'til I had to give up basement space to the family and tore down the layout about 10 years ago. I started rebuilding about 3-4 years ago and made the decision to add DCS and MTH motive power....I liked the variety, loved that the 2-8-4 Berk wasn't so diminutive as the O27 Lionel Berk, and like the features like 4-chuffs with MTH/DCS.

Shortly thereafter, Lionel announced LC+ 2.0 and Mike Wolf announced his retirement. In retrospect, I wish I had waited but I didn't have this information at the time. Sure, I really like the Rail King engines I've purchased......most aren't available in LC+ 2.0, but there's enough in the LC+/LC+2 now that I'd have been satisfied.

I'm advising my new-to-the hobby son of a cousin and my son-in-law to stick with Lionel for now.

@Landsteiner posted:

If cost is a significant issue, LionChief+, LionChief, LionChief +2.0 and recent Legacy locos will all operate using the $50 Universal Remote.

I did not realize that the Universal Remote could control Legacy locos.

Or...

Do I still need a Legacy base to make that happen?

If I still need the Legacy Base unit then I'll probably go that route:

1) Legacy base,

2) Lots of external power

3) Universal Remote

4) Legacy and LC Plus 2.0 locos.

Conventional control, while simple, is a complete non-starter for me. I am part of an HO scale modular club and we've been running digital control for over 15 years. BTW, it's an European themed club and we run the Märklin track and power system which is also 3-rail  AC so I have lots of experience there.

Thanks for all the ideas. Time to start building something.

Dan

I'll answer myself...

The Legacy system does provide a lot of loco choices but I can't find a dealer who has one in stock. A search on ebay reveals some absolutely eye watering prices - ouch!

Howsabout this - I start with...

1) A Lionel Lionchief Plus 2.0 loco TBD

2) Lionel 1908080 CW80 transformer - new and improved

3) I already have some Lionel Fastrack - enough for a simple loop and one siding - so I'm OK there for a start.

...and that's it. Simple and fits within my budget - just.

Wadda ya think?

Dan

That would certainly get you going, I see no problem with what your propose.

you can run legacy engines with a universal remote or use the lionchief app. doesn't do everything but when they bring out the base3 your set to go.

I’ve used TMCC ever since it came out.  Then when MTH produced the DCS TIU which integrated the TMCC system, I got that.  I’ve been running my TMCC/Legacy/PS2/PS3 locos happily since.  Best of all worlds, IMO.

If I were in this situation today, I'd go with the Legacy Base 3 coupled with a ZW-L transformer.  The ZW-L would add the capability to run MTH locos in conventional mode (and conventional Lionel Postwar, Prewar, Williams, etc.) through the ZW-L using a cell phone or Legacy remote -- you would be able to use the horn/whistle, bell, and electrocouplers, but non of the other DCS features.  If the more advanced DCS features are desired, then the DCS system could be added to the mix.

Andy

If you go with the bricks and the Legacy PowerMaster, you get many of the more advanced features of the DCS locomotives.  The Legacy PowerMaster has macro commands to access many of the features.

"I did not realize that the Universal Remote could control Legacy locos.

Or...

Do I still need a Legacy base to make that happen?"

In recent years, Legacy locos have Bluetooth and  that makes it possible to use the Universal Remote.  No Legacy base needed for this.  For earlier Legacy locos, without Bluetooth, Universal Remote is not usable.

"Wadda ya think?"  Should be fine.

If you want a remote and command control, you can add the Universal Remote for about $55 or so.

@Landsteiner posted:

"I did not realize that the Universal Remote could control Legacy locos.

Or...

Do I still need a Legacy base to make that happen?"

In recent years, Legacy locos have Bluetooth and  that makes it possible to use the Universal Remote.  No Legacy base needed for this.  For earlier Legacy locos, without Bluetooth, Universal Remote is not usable.

WOW!

Now that opens up a lot of possibilities I didn't know I had. So I'll amend my startup kit...

1) Lionchief Plus 2.0 OR Legacy with Bluetooth locos TBD

2) CW80

3) Universal controller - no need for a Legacy base

4) Track - I have enough Fastrack for a large loop

... and that's it.

How am I doin'?

Dan

@geepboy posted:

How am I doin'?

IMO, not that good.   Truthfully, the Universal remote is a poor substitute for the real command systems.  In addition, only Legacy from around 2016-2017 have BT, so that's your universe.  You are locked out of all the TMCC from a variety of makers, Lionel, Atlas, Weaver, Sunset 3rd Rail, and any Legacy made before 2016.  You also get a limited subset of the features available with the real command systems.  You had previously expressed an interest in many of the aforementioned models, are you now willing to limit yourself to a much smaller universe?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

IMO, not that good.   Truthfully, the Universal remote is a poor substitute for the real command systems.  In addition, only Legacy from around 2016-2017 have BT, so that's your universe.  You are locked out of all the TMCC from a variety of makers, Lionel, Atlas, Weaver, Sunset 3rd Rail, and any Legacy made before 2016.  You also get a limited subset of the features available with the real command systems.  You had previously expressed an interest in many of the aforementioned models, are you now willing to limit yourself to a much smaller universe?

You raise a fair point...

BUT...

where do I find a Legacy controller? Apparently it's discontinued and the ones on ebay are north of $1000 - that's a NOGO.

So, ball in your court - what do you recommend? Be gentle.

Dan

@geepboy posted:

You raise a fair point...

BUT...

where do I find a Legacy controller? Apparently it's discontinued and the ones on ebay are north of $1000 - that's a NOGO.

So, ball in your court - what do you recommend? Be gentle.

Dan

TMCC Command Base and Cab-1 controller can be had for $300 or less. You can run Legacy/TMCC/Lionchief Plus 2.0 locomotives with it.

@geepboy posted:

WOW!

Now that opens up a lot of possibilities I didn't know I had. So I'll amend my startup kit...

1) Lionchief Plus 2.0 OR Legacy with Bluetooth locos TBD

2) CW80

3) Universal controller - no need for a Legacy base

4) Track - I have enough Fastrack for a large loop

... and that's it.

How am I doin'?

Dan

If you have no interest in conventional operation, the CW80 is a waste. Pick up a dedicated power brick. If the new control systems ever come out (Cab 3, WTIU), you're still good to go. The 180 watt powerhouse can still be occasionally found at a decent price, the 135 watt one (probably more than you'll ever need on a small layout) for even less.

@Magicland posted:

If you have no interest in conventional operation, the CW80 is a waste. Pick up a dedicated power brick. If the new control systems ever come out (Cab 3, WTIU), you're still good to go. The 180 watt powerhouse can still be occasionally found at a decent price, the 135 watt one (probably more than you'll ever need on a small layout) for even less.

I do not recommend the 135W brick.  The 180W brick has a state of the art electronically triggered circuit breaker, the 135W brick has a slow thermal circuit breaker.

I’ve been in the hobby most of my life, but it’s only been just over a year that I‘ve been back into it after a considerable absence. I ran most of my engines conventional and dabbled in TMCC previously. So as a new-ish newbie, this is my take…

I would wait for the Lionel CAB3 for a couple of reasons.

You already have Lionel products that would be compatible. While MTH and others offer some great stuff, you can stick with Lionel and still grow your collection with pieces you like through preowned purchases.  Some things may be harder to find but there’s plenty out there and you’ll save a few bucks. Lots of great TMCC examples out there in particular.

And for me, being newer to all the recent electronics, the Lionel stuff seems a little easier to learn, and the wiring is not as complicated. You’ll hook up the one base, make sure you have a couple of power feeds around the layout if needed, and you’re good to go. You’ll be able to control engines and even switch tracks with not a lot of fuss. The nice thing is that you can grow in complexity with Lionel LCS but it’s absolutely not required.   Whereas with the other system, it’s recommended to have isolated blocks around the layout to improve their signal and personally, and I didn’t want to have to deal with adding multiple modules to do what the single Lionel base does. Someone correct me if I’m wrong here, but I believe you have to purchase the controller and TIU separately, though the newest units come with Wi-Fi

@VJandP posted:

  Whereas with the other system, it’s recommended to have isolated blocks around the layout to improve their signal and personally, and I didn’t want to have to deal with adding multiple modules to do what the single Lionel base does. Someone correct me if I’m wrong here, but I believe you have to purchase the controller and TIU separately, though the newest units come with Wi-Fi

With DCS you just need to have the center rail isolated in several spots around the layout, exactly what one would do if they were operating conventionally. When available the TIU and remote were available as a set, just like a TMCC Base/Cab-1, Base 1L/Cab-1L, or Legacy Base/Cab-2 when they were available.  If you want to control accessories from the remote under TMCC/Legacy you need an add on LCS controller, or with DCS you need an add on AIU.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I do not recommend the 135W brick.  The 180W brick has a state of the art electronically triggered circuit breaker, the 135W brick has a slow thermal circuit breaker.

Yeah. With a 135W brick you need to add on external circuit protection, just like with a postwar transformer.

OK, so I found a 180 watt brick on Amazon and bought it for $228. Is that OK?

Dan