Boy! Did I screw up. Brand new 700E Vision Line Hudson - no sound

Ron,

Try opening the tender to look for loose wires/boards.  Also check the wire leads on the speakers themselves.  This might be just a case of a loose wire...

FrankfordJunction posted:

Back in 2011/2012, I purchased a brand new Lionel Vision Line 700E Gray Hudson.  Didn't have any place to run it, so left it in the shipping box, sealed, in a cool, dry spot.  Well, this year I finally got around to bringing it out (after thinking about just selling it sealed in the shipper).  My wife saw me.  I related how this had been in storage since new and her first words were, "You had better pray it works."  Cue the ominous music...  I opened the shipper and the black Vision Line box.  The locomotive looked perfect.  I was excited to get it on the layout (unfinished, well really, unstarted).  To my utter despair and disappointment, I programmed the loco into Legacy (the horn did toot), started it up and ... No Sound whatsoever, just a 60hz buzz from the tender.  The loco runs great but its quiet as a confessional, well a buzzing confessional.  

I guess I learned a lesson.  When you buy something, make sure it works.  This one goes back in the box until after Christmas, then it's off to Henning's for some magic, hopefully.

Scary thing is I've got a few more "new in the shipping box" time bombs in storage!  Hope that K4 is OK.

Merry Christmas.

PS. If anyone has any ideas about how I might get the sound working, it would make my holiday.

If you place the Tender alone on the track and power it up, do you get any sounds? Or just the buzz?

If you do get sound then it might be the IR tether giving you the issue, if you place the tender alone on the track and power up and still get the buzz then more than likely it is a board issue in the tender and it would need to be taken apart and inspected.

If you get me your part # i might be able to get you the part number for the board you will need to replace.

Henning's is definitely a great choice for repairs, GunRunnerJohn is probably the right guy for the job.

I know these engines hold value if they are sealed in shippers but I happen to somewhat disagree. I would much rather a new engine be opened and tested before I buy it. My LHS tests all of my engines before I take them home, its a way to make sure you don't have to come back with a bad engine/experience; if an issue is found, a solution is also found before I leave.

Hope this helps!

Allan, Daniel,

Thanks for the suggestions.  1) took the shell off the tender.  Everything looked good.  Made sure there were no loose wires, all connectors were seated.  The speaker and volume pot wires were connected.  Didn't see anything that would indicate damaged parts or components.  Put the loco and tender back on the track, same deal.  Loud crackle at power up, then the buzz.

2) Put the tender on the track alone and powered up.  Exact same symptom.  Crackle at start up, then the buzz.

I'm not qualified to mess with it any more than that, so I think I'll be headed up to see Bill and Harry Henning to get a first class repair.  This loco is too nice.  I want a pro to take on the repair.

Thanks for your suggestions.  Wished one would have been the thing.  Daniel, I think I have learned the lesson you cite about test it before you take it home.  Hope it's not the same for the other few boxes I have.

All the best.

Good luck Ron!

I am sure the others are fine, I'm rooting for you there my friend but only one way to make sure.

Let those locomotives breathe some fresh American air LMAO!

Thanks!

It might be something simple, only way to know for sure is to look at it.

Since this is the older RS6 board with the separate power supply, the first thing to do is to reseat both boards.  Pull them off the pins and then right back on.  This frequently cures a lot of ills.  This has been sitting in the box for 6-7 years, plenty of time for oxidation to start on the contact pins.  Do the same thing with the connectors in the tender.

Do a factory reset, should be in the manual

Matt, factory reset won't fix this one, the tender should have normal sounds sitting alone on the track.  I'm guessing lousy connections as my top suspect.  I noted that parts are available, so it's only a medium screwup if he happens to need the audio board.

I’ve had some dumb ones where the sounds didn’t start up when I started up the loco. He’s got sound as indicated by the horn sounding during programming. 

Hmm...  I wonder if a few AUX1/1 key presses would bring it back?  My experience is that the TMCC reset doesn't change the volume settings anyway, so I'd try the key presses.

Of course, there's always the volume pot as well.

Thanks, Matt and GRJ.  I'm on it after dinner.  GRJ, not sure if it makes a difference but the volume of the buzz does not change with the volume pot.

That's interesting, it would seem to indicate the audio circuit isn't seeing the pot.  Maybe check the pot connections or the pot itself.  Also, running the pot back and forth a few times sometimes clears out any dust/corrosion on the contact. 

Another thing to try with the pot.

Set the pot midway between the max and minimum.  Then carefully short the center lug and one outside lug.  Then short the center lug to the other outside lug.  See if anything changes in the volume, and if there's any difference between the two tests.  Obviously, this is done with power on.

If it has signal sounds make sure you are not in that mode.

OK, I did as suggested.  1) reseated all cable connections; 2) checked speaker connections;  3) tried the AUX1/1 trick; 4) couldn't find factory reset;  5) reprogrammed in Legacy;  6) took some pics of the connectors and boards; 7) tried John's suggestion of shorting the center of the volume pot to each of the outside legs.  Well, well.  I connected the jumper to the center post.  When I picked up the other end of the jumper, the buzz got louder.  When I shorted the center post to the left post (looking at the front of the pot), the buzz WENT AWAY.  When I shorted the center post to the right post of the volume pot, RAILSOUNDS CAMEBACK.  Video attached.  Bad pot? 

Not sure I can do much more.  Thanks so much for all the help.  The model RR community is really something remarkable.

Bad pot, cheap fix.

For a temporary fix, rotate the pot to the full volume position and then just jumper those two pins together and put the top back on.  You won't have a volume control, but for command operation it won't matter.  The part is $8.40 at Lionel.

Thanks, GRJ.  I'm still bringing it to you (Henning's) after Christmas.  I've got a couple others; one with bad LEDs and one buzzing.  

I have a different tech question.  Is there an ERR upgrade that would take a TMCC loco and put the equivalent of Odyssey speed control in it?  It's amazing what a difference Odyssey makes.  Just pulled out a couple old TMCC locos and they are driving me crazy on a slight incline.

Before ordering a new pot try squirting a bit of WD40 in there. These rarely break but its common for the wiper to get some oxidation on it. If you have actual contact cleaner then use that but WD40 will work in a pinch.

Pete

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Bad pot, cheap fix.

For a temporary fix, rotate the pot to the full volume position and then just jumper those two pins together and put the top back on.  You won't have a volume control, but for command operation it won't matter.  The part is $8.40 at Lionel.

Temporary???? For $8 + $10 for shipping, you will find this fix a bit more than just "temporary" if I ever run into this issue 🤣🤣🤣

Glad you found your issue Ron!

Thanks to everyone.  For Christmas, the Hudson will be running WITH sound.  Maybe an

Army train?

Holy smokes that buzzing is crazy loud. My Vision Genset has a slight background buzz but it still works just fine

Your Vision Line Hudson was one of the first to use the newer RCMC board.    Do this.   With full power on the track, push the whistle button ONE time.  After that, start pushing the number 1 button on your Legacy keypad until you get your sound back.

Ron, have you tried MartyF's solution??

All I can say is run'em if you got'em.

Norton posted:

Before ordering a new pot try squirting a bit of WD40 in there. These rarely break but its common for the wiper to get some oxidation on it. If you have actual contact cleaner then use that but WD40 will work in a pinch.

Pete

 

I would not use WD-40, that is not a contact cleaner.  WD-40 is a petroleum based product.

They make specific electronic contact cleaners for oxidized electronics connections.   Radio shack used to sell but now just go on Amazon.  I stocked up before radio shack went bust but use it all the time anytime electronic connections get flaky.

It may just need some deoxidation of the pot inside.

All I can say is thank heavens for real experts who helped you fix it yourself. 

I’d be interested to know if oxidation/dust on the potentiometer is the cause of this or maybe it’s just a bad component. I have had the background buzz (although not loss of sound) on some early Legacy/VL engines, including the Genset. It’s annoying and not least because it does not affect all of these models. Notably none of those engines was run shortly after they were issued; I bought them in sealed boxes a few years later.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Your Vision Line Hudson was one of the first to use the newer RCMC board.    Do this.   With full power on the track, push the whistle button ONE time.  After that, start pushing the number 1 button on your Legacy keypad until you get your sound back.

Marty, when I looked up the VL Hudson, it had the RS6 sound board.  In any case, we tracked it down to a bad pot, so he's on his way.

FrankfordJunction posted:

I have a different tech question.  Is there an ERR upgrade that would take a TMCC loco and put the equivalent of Odyssey speed control in it?  It's amazing what a difference Odyssey makes.  Just pulled out a couple old TMCC locos and they are driving me crazy on a slight incline.

Sure, it's called the Cruise Commander M, and I have them in stock.  Night and day, anything I have without cruise with a DC motor gets one of these.

Tackindy has one for sale on the forum.

SandJam posted:

Norton posted:

Before ordering a new pot try squirting a bit of WD40 in there. These rarely break but its common for the wiper to get some oxidation on it. If you have actual contact cleaner then use that but WD40 will work in a pinch.

Pete

 

I would not use WD-40, that is not a contact cleaner.  WD-40 is a petroleum based product.

They make specific electronic contact cleaners for oxidized electronics connections.   Radio shack used to sell but now just go on Amazon.  I stocked up before radio shack went bust but use it all the time anytime electronic connections get flaky.

It may just need some deoxidation of the pot inside.

Your choice but it works and in this case it will tell if oxidized contacts are the issue. It won't hurt anything. Besides if it doesn't help the pot will get replaced anyway. Most everyone has a can of WD40, few have a product to specifically clean electrical contacts.

Pete

SandJam posted:

Norton posted:

Before ordering a new pot try squirting a bit of WD40 in there. These rarely break but its common for the wiper to get some oxidation on it. If you have actual contact cleaner then use that but WD40 will work in a pinch.

Pete

 

I would not use WD-40, that is not a contact cleaner.  WD-40 is a petroleum based product.

They make specific electronic contact cleaners for oxidized electronics connections.   Radio shack used to sell but now just go on Amazon.  I stocked up before radio shack went bust but use it all the time anytime electronic connections get flaky.

It may just need some deoxidation of the pot inside.

You can buy CRC electronic cleaner at Home Depot. Also, RC electric motor cleaner seems to be the same thing.

George

George S posted:

SandJam posted:

Norton posted:

Before ordering a new pot try squirting a bit of WD40 in there. These rarely break but its common for the wiper to get some oxidation on it. If you have actual contact cleaner then use that but WD40 will work in a pinch.

Pete

 

I would not use WD-40, that is not a contact cleaner.  WD-40 is a petroleum based product.

They make specific electronic contact cleaners for oxidized electronics connections.   Radio shack used to sell but now just go on Amazon.  I stocked up before radio shack went bust but use it all the time anytime electronic connections get flaky.

It may just need some deoxidation of the pot inside.

You can buy CRC electronic cleaner at Home Depot. Also, RC electric motor cleaner seems to be the same thing.

George

You can buy a lot of things. Don't forget to add gas or shipping.  What do you do when you find out that dirty contacts are not the problem? You spend more money on the part, shipping for that part plus labor if you can't make the repair itself. For $0.0002 worth of WD40 you can find out if all of these other expenses are even needed.

What was suggested is tool to to help troubleshoot a problem, not the first choice to repair that problem.

Pete

Norton posted:

SandJam posted:

Norton posted:

Before ordering a new pot try squirting a bit of WD40 in there. These rarely break but its common for the wiper to get some oxidation on it. If you have actual contact cleaner then use that but WD40 will work in a pinch.

Pete

 

I would not use WD-40, that is not a contact cleaner.  WD-40 is a petroleum based product.

They make specific electronic contact cleaners for oxidized electronics connections.   Radio shack used to sell but now just go on Amazon.  I stocked up before radio shack went bust but use it all the time anytime electronic connections get flaky.

It may just need some deoxidation of the pot inside.

Your choice but it works and in this case it will tell if oxidized contacts are the issue. It won't hurt anything. Besides if it doesn't help the pot will get replaced anyway. Most everyone has a can of WD40, few have a product to specifically clean electrical contacts.

Pete

Actually No, WD-40 will leave an oily film on the contacts.  It does not flash off.

Also, any petroleum based product will degrade any other product made with petroleum.  This is chemistry 101. 

If it is simply oxidation a can of electronics contact cleaner will tell the tale and everyone should have a can of that around the house to use on any electronic component that needs cleaning (volume knobs, switches, etc.)

Every train guy should definitely have a can in their basic tool box!  Right tool for right job.

RICKM46,

John had recommended a solution similar to Marty's that didn't work.  With John's help I tracked it down to the pot.  BTW, if I'm reading correctly, my Hudson has an RS6 board ("RS6R 11218").

Shorting the two leads on the pot brought sounds back and, for now, I can control the volume with Legacy.

The people on this forum are, simply put, TERRIFIC.  Thanks to all for all the contributions and help you provide.

GRJ,

I'll send you an email.  I have three TMCC locos that I'd like to get updated with Cruise Commander.  Thanks for all the help.

SandJam posted

Actually No, WD-40 will leave an oily film on the contacts.  It does not flash off.

Also, any petroleum based product will degrade any other product made with petroleum.  This is chemistry 101. 

If it is simply oxidation a can of electronics contact cleaner will tell the tale and everyone should have a can of that around the house to use on any electronic component that needs cleaning (volume knobs, switches, etc.)

Every train guy should definitely have a can in their basic tool box!  Right tool for right job.

 

 

What petroleum product can be found in a potentiometer? The majority of them, in particular the ones made to a price point are plated steel, spring temper copper and carbon or nichrome. 

Are you a chemist or an engineer? You must have skipped inorganic chemistry.

Pete

I'm confused.  We've already diagnosed the issue, it's the pot.  As far as cleaning it, I don't know what WD-40 would do, but my choice is electronic contact cleaner specifically made for the issue.

At Ace Hardware: CRC Electronic Contact Cleaner - $4 a can.

RickM46 posted:

At Ace Hardware: CRC Electronic Contact Cleaner - $4 a can.

Absolutely. This, like soldering flux, is something every workbench (no matter how messy) should have... 

Mark in Oregon

Norton posted:

SandJam posted

Actually No, WD-40 will leave an oily film on the contacts.  It does not flash off.

Also, any petroleum based product will degrade any other product made with petroleum.  This is chemistry 101. 

If it is simply oxidation a can of electronics contact cleaner will tell the tale and everyone should have a can of that around the house to use on any electronic component that needs cleaning (volume knobs, switches, etc.)

Every train guy should definitely have a can in their basic tool box!  Right tool for right job.

 

 

What petroleum product can be found in a potentiometer? The majority of them, in particular the ones made to a price point are plated steel, spring temper copper and carbon or nichrome. 

Are you a chemist or an engineer? You must have skipped inorganic chemistry.

Pete

I did not say there was, but WD40 does not cling, it runs all over and can seep out to other components.  So again use the right product for the right job.  Simple as that.  I was just pointing out there are products made for that purpose that won’t cause other issues potentially.  

John, the engine uses the RCMC board.    The tender uses the 6.0 audio board with the generic RS power board.