Brick made an angry pop when the breaker kicked.

Jumped in...

found a loose feeling in the wiring connection at 1b on the switch..it broke when I touched it...

But, I am getting continuity through the switch.

I also noticed a solder gap on the Zettler relay pin by the red wire.

If 1 meg then suspect lamp was a neon. 

cjack posted:

PLCProf posted:

OK lots to talk about.

As posted above, I shorted the output of a PH-180, energized it, and got the "angry pop." However, things did not turn out as they were assumed.

1. The 120 VAC side had no continuity through the plug. It was assumed that a fusible link in the transformer had failed, but this was not the case. The open was in the switch! In attached photo "Switch" the upper left contact is extremely loose and discolored. Switch was unwired and bypassed, resistance across the line plug now read about 1.2 ohms. Unit was energized, but output measured with a DVM was only 6 volts.

2. I identified the transformer secondary leads under the circuit board, and they showed full voltage. A careful review of the board. however, showed a soot flash in the vicinity of D2. D2 tested good. It was then noted that there was almost no solder on the pad immediately to the left of D2, which is the connection for one of the relay contacts. Careful measurements showed no continuity from the relay pin to the pad. (photo "Board before"). This connection was resoldered (photo "Board after) and the unit tested out fine (photo "Testing.") Apparently the overcurrent vaporized what little solder may have been there to begin with.

 

2 morals to this story-

1. PH-180 doesn't like to be turned on with the output shorted.

2. Fusible link in the transformer may not be the source of failure.

 

Gotta run, heading over to the supply house to see if I can get a new switch.

This one? I found a couple on ebay once and can send you one if you need. No charge .

I also replaced the LED on one once, I think I added a diode to protect the LED from the reverse half cycle as well. Seems like there was a resistor in the lead to the LED in the wiring...

Here it is, what I found,

Where did you locate the switch?

how much was it?

I need one, because mine has broken at the 1b lug..And no room to resolder..

1drummer posted:

Jumped in...

found a loose feeling in the wiring connection at 1b on the switch..it broke when I touched it...

But, I am getting continuity through the switch.

I also noticed a solder gap on the Zettler relay pin by the red wire.

OK, so the switch mechanically broke...so you need to replace the switch one way or the other. 

But as PLCProf asks, are you measuring 1 Ohm (or so) between the prongs of the AC plug with the switch in the "on" position??

And with continuity through the switch, are you still only measuring 5-6V AC across red-and-blue (the secondary) of the transformer before it gets to the relay??

1drummer posted:

cjack posted:

PLCProf posted:

OK lots to talk about.

As posted above, I shorted the output of a PH-180, energized it, and got the "angry pop." However, things did not turn out as they were assumed.

1. The 120 VAC side had no continuity through the plug. It was assumed that a fusible link in the transformer had failed, but this was not the case. The open was in the switch! In attached photo "Switch" the upper left contact is extremely loose and discolored. Switch was unwired and bypassed, resistance across the line plug now read about 1.2 ohms. Unit was energized, but output measured with a DVM was only 6 volts.

2. I identified the transformer secondary leads under the circuit board, and they showed full voltage. A careful review of the board. however, showed a soot flash in the vicinity of D2. D2 tested good. It was then noted that there was almost no solder on the pad immediately to the left of D2, which is the connection for one of the relay contacts. Careful measurements showed no continuity from the relay pin to the pad. (photo "Board before"). This connection was resoldered (photo "Board after) and the unit tested out fine (photo "Testing.") Apparently the overcurrent vaporized what little solder may have been there to begin with.

 

2 morals to this story-

1. PH-180 doesn't like to be turned on with the output shorted.

2. Fusible link in the transformer may not be the source of failure.

 

Gotta run, heading over to the supply house to see if I can get a new switch.

This one? I found a couple on ebay once and can send you one if you need. No charge .

I also replaced the LED on one once, I think I added a diode to protect the LED from the reverse half cycle as well. Seems like there was a resistor in the lead to the LED in the wiring...

Here it is, what I found,

Where did you locate the switch?

how much was it?

 

I need one, because mine has broken at the 1b lug..And no room to resolder..

 

Read the thread, there are a couple ebay links which sell the switches.

But first you need to determine that your transformer is ok.

OK...  Here is what happened to PLCProf's 180w brick (and keep in mind that he has made a great sacrifice to the cause):

First thing to know is that an "angry pop" is a short in the 120v side.  (See https://ogrforum.com/t...ly=69425981492981028 for a factoid #2 that explains why the current involved is between 100 amps and 1000 amps.  My post is 12th one down, similar to my post above here on cascade protection, except I had added some useful things to know.)

So what destroyed the Light Country rocker switch type RA1 (formerly R19A) of 6A 250v UR rating?  A current of somewhere between 100 and 1000 amps passed through it.  If the house 120v panel breaker did not open, then the switch or some part of the circuit board on which it was mounted was blown to pieces, or the point of short was burned clear.  This switch is on-off, and one of a family of 2A--6A--15A switches.  Being Chinese-made you don't get much more than it will switch 6A, meaning open 6 amps.  How much it will carry while closed is not stated, but it has silver contacts so likely will carry 20A without a problem (8w heating at contacts).  I'd even hazard 50A for a short period.  But not 1000 amps.  How far away (on a scale of 10 to 100 feet (which roughly corresponds inversely to the 100 to 1000 amps) was the service panel from the wall outlet?

But in all likelihood this switch (SW2) was not the problem, but the victim.  Of what?

Well, the secondary coil carried 45 amps for a very short while, which was approached slowly (slowly in electrical terms).  The rate of heat generation in the low voltage load side coil would be about 800w.  The line-side coil would have carried about 6 amps (isn't that a coincidence?) with a heat rate of about 120w.  As a general rule, in this situation you want the insulation in the primary coil (line-side 120v) to fail first.  That is so you get a breaker opening on the wall outlet before you get a transformer fire.

The "bricks" are low reactance transformers.  This is accomplished by winding one coil entirely over the other.  Which?  Well, you wind the 120v coil under the 18v coil.  That way its heat is trapped and its insulation fails first.  BAM!  120v short and the Light Country switch SW-2 is blown to pieces, through no fault of its own.

Meanwhile, the progressive destruction of the circuit board due the 45A short on the output is halted.

It would be interesting to break open R-1, the Millionspot 15A relay, and see if this exercise welded its contacts together...

There is at least one case of a brick with welded R-1 contacts in the historical record of 86 failures of the unfused first TUI's that I investigated about 16 years ago.   I immediately opened a 135w brick lying to hand and understood at a glance (10-amp sugar-cube sized R-1 relay) what trouble cutting the special plug was causing.  So I chased down a copy of UL 697 ($600+/40-odd pages those days to buy one) and confirmed this was a UL-approved cascade protection arrangement.

Cascade protection actually works, if done correctly.  If done correctly.  Your modern house service panel actually has the smaller breakers in cascade with the master breaker, in most cases.

About every two years I take another stab at trying to explain this situation here on the OGR board, totally without success.  But given the rate at which equipment is generously being destroyed in this discussion, and number of rather skilled people looking at all the pictures of the wreckage, I have renewed hope.

--Frank

It's interesting that you found a relay in a 135W brick since all of them that I've seen simply have a thermal circuit breaker in the secondary.  The PH180 units are the ones with the electronic circuit protection and the relay.

cjack posted:

stan2004 posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

cjack posted:

stan2004 posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

... another popped up from Buffalo, NY right near me.

Note that the wiring diagram does not match!  

This is probably how I wired the new switch...

 

So I bought the wrong one of I need to rewire?

Switch should be fine; it's just the eBay seller's own diagram does not match his photo.  I'd do what cjack suggests.  I think cjack's diagram needs to be corrected to show the 1N4003 diode facing the other way.  Also, note that the 10k resistor should be of the 1 Watt rating.  Most guys have a stash of only 1/2 Watt resistors so if that's what you have then, say, two 1/2 Watt resistors of 5.1k or 4.7k in series would work.  It can be a chore to buy just one 1 Watt resistor mail-order or wherever.

 

Oh yes! Thanks for catching that. 

Thanks

Wait, is it a 4003 or a 4005?

Doesn't matter. The 4003 is good for 200 volts rev and the 4005 is good for 600 volts rev. So either.

I learned my soldering iron tip was damaged last night...

So I couldn't disconnect the leads...

All the stores that might have had a tip, or iron..closed at 8 pm..

Odd..stores closing at 8pm in December....

Wonder what marketing genius made that decision....

Now at hospital with wife...she has AFIB..heart was 148 for over 24 hours...it would not self correct with meds..even in ER..so they shocked her..120 joules...

Now her beat is regular again...

Seems electricity is the dominant factor of my existence

Wow Drummer, hope she does well now.

I figured with the help I'd go get started. I took out the glued on rubber feet and tried to get at the screws. Looks like they are anti-Joe screws!

Maybe I could cut a slot into a reg screwdriver and that would work?

George S posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The valuable part for most is the brick.  It can probably be fixed, but you'd have to open it up and dig into it.  Yes, the screws are under the rubber feet.

I opened one of mine. The screws are slotted, but have a safety 'notch' to prevent amateurs from opening them with ordinary flat head screw drivers. I used my Dremel on an old screw driver to create the notch in the blade. Then it was easy to remove the screws. I'm sure GRJ has the professional driver set. 

George

there it is....

F Maguire posted:

 

...This is accomplished by winding one coil entirely over the other.  Which?  Well, you wind the 120v coil under the 18v coil.  That way its heat is trapped and its insulation fails first... 

So does the transformer in this brick have an internal-irreplaceable fusible link?  And if so why wouldn't this fuse fail first (before the primary insulation fails from its trapped heat as you describe)?  In either case the transformer would be toast, but it seems an insulation failure which suggests potential shorting has more dire consequences than an opening of a fuse.

sorry to interrupt ..... again,

I got it apart and found a 1n4003 diode in my parts stash. I also found 1n4001 which state 50v so I could see where the higher number works.

I'm guessing that my light failed and the resistor is still good. Can't I re-use the stock resistor that's already in there? Is that what fails?

I would just re-solder the new switch in place using the original wires as a guide?

I just got a response from Lionel

They will respond with a decision in 3 days..

How do you think my opening the brick affect their decision when I inform them ????

I'm going to attempt to resolder the relay lead..

Bypass the on/off switch...

See if any smoke escapes...

Or perhaps isolate transformer leads and test OHMS FIRST...

Jumped in...

found a loose feeling in the wiring connection at 1b on the switch..it broke when I touched it...

But, I am getting continuity through the switch.

I also noticed a solder gap on the Zettler relay pin by the red wire.

Engineer-Joe posted:

...

I'm guessing that my light failed and the resistor is still good. Can't I re-use the stock resistor that's already in there? Is that what fails?

Test across leads without disconnecting 

INPUT black to white..1.2 OHMS

Input WHITE TO RED output...infinity

WHITE to BLUE...infinity 

RED to BLUE...1.2 OHMS

1drummer posted:

...

But, I am getting continuity through the switch.

 

So if you're getting continuity through the switch, did you measure the Ohms between the AC power plug?  This should measure the primary side of the transformer (1 Ohm or whatever).

Also, can you tell the lettering/markings on the relay?  The discussion has been about the Millionspot H200 relay.  Zettler may be one and the same but would be good to document for the record.

Tested leads..Seems transformer is in tact

Types the Zettler is the Millionspot...

I am going to solder it's questionable terminal

That darkness is  a shadow...nothing more

I'm confused again and it's easy for that to happen to me. I guess adding in the switch colors might be messing me up?

The stock Lionel switch would have what I call the white or neutral (with the white transformer lead jumped on) running to the right hand switch terminal of the top double set looking from the back of the switch. The hot lead goes to the single term on the farthest opposite end. There's the resistor soldered to the other left hand lead of that double set jumping to the middle terminal where the black lead is also soldered going off to the transformer.

 So, to double check, which direction do I solder the silver stripe on the diode? towards the middle terminal or towards the top left?

did I explain that clearly? (I know, what am I doing inside of this???)

1drummer posted:

I just got a response from Lionel

They will respond with a decision in 3 days..

How do you think my opening the brick affect their decision when I inform them ????

I'm going to attempt to resolder the relay lead..

Bypass the on/off switch...

See if any smoke escapes...

Or perhaps isolate transformer leads and test OHMS FIRST...

 

 

If you get it working, then you don't need to worry. If you can't fix it and they offer to exchange it, I would put it back together and send it back to them. I doubt they will open it. If they ask, remind them that it failed with an electrical short.

But if they open it..they will know I did...

Looking at my switch..

The 1a side has 1 terminal lug

The 1 has 1 terminal lug

The 1b side has 2 terminal lugs...

Shouldn't I be able to solder my AC line to the switch side of the 15K

Until I get a replacement?

Sorry my focus is wandering

If someone has one of these failed switches, PLEASE break it open and determine what is used for a lamp!

Wait, You mean to tell me:

that the white goes to the switch just for the LED? pretty heavy wire?

that the resistor cuts down 120v AC to 2v Ac/DC for the LED/bulb lamp? (guessing, Must be a bulb then?)

Engineer-Joe posted:

 So, to double check, which direction do I solder the silver stripe on the diode? towards the middle terminal or towards the top left?

As indicated in the earlier posted diagram, the Light Country datasheet shows a + and - terminal for the "lamp" with a 2V LED.  Assuming that's the switch you bought the band would face the upper left terminal as shown.

There have been two reports that the as-built resistor is 15k so I assume that's what you have too.  That would be a suitable value to drop the 120V line voltage down to 2V for the LED.  cjack suggests a slightly lower value which would make the LED a bit brighter, but if you already (only) have a 15k handy ....

Thank you.

I will call this wiring for dummies so I can understand.��

Dale Manquen posted:

If someone has one of these failed switches, PLEASE break it open and determine what is used for a lamp!

Mine had an LED. Which failed. The replacement switches I found all have LEDs. I found that the 8.2 K gave the brightness I wanted. 10 K would be good I'm sure. Seems like 15 K was a little less bright on my replacement switches.

Mine has 15K

And, I'm still wondering, about soldering the AC lead that broke at 1b lug to the lug at the bottom of the 15K resistor..

They should be a common point...

But without seeing the switch components I am not sure.

Also, I got a response from Lionel..they extended a one time courtesy RMA..

So I reiterated that I had attempted to test and repair this on my own..because I don't want to send it in only to get it returned un-repaired.

Also, I just located my receipt..And I again emailed Lionel

I bought this 12/2013.

I told them if they wanted to reconsider their RMA I would understand.

Age and Time are in cahoots, working together to add and subtract at the same time, clouding my memory and the passing of years.

It is cruel irony that Age gives you the sense you are gaining, when in fact you are losing.

Thankful I have Trains to occupy my Time and Mind

1drummer posted:

Looking at my switch..

The 1a side has 1 terminal lug

The 1 has 1 terminal lug

The 1b side has 2 terminal lugs...

 

Shouldn't I be able to solder my AC line to the switch side of the 15K

Until I get a replacement?

Sorry my focus is wandering

The two lugs on the 1b side are the two lugs for the LED. They are not the same lug, but a lug on each side of the LED

I hooked mine up exactly as it was from Lionel with Stan's adding the diode. It works. The LED maybe a little dim for some. It matches the others.

I'm not sure whether I should open my others and add the Diode? They have worked for a few years. The one that didn't, was purchased used, that way.

Engineer-Joe posted:

I hooked mine up exactly as it was from Lionel with Stan's adding the diode. It works. The LED maybe a little dim.

I'm not sure whether I should open my others and add the Diode? They have worked for a few years. The one that didn't, was purchased used, that way.

I had one LED go out, fixed and added diode, and never added the diode to the other three of the bricks and they are still working.

Engineer-Joe posted:

I hooked mine up exactly as it was from Lionel with Stan's adding the diode. It works. The LED maybe a little dim.

I'm not sure whether I should open my others and add the Diode? They have worked for a few years. The one that didn't, was purchased used, that way.

And what do you mean you hooked it up...is it all working now?

Here's the best I can get of the insides. My camera keeps focus on somewhere else?

The light is a red flat LED That sits in there

I'll probably wait for the others to go.

cjack posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

I hooked mine up exactly as it was from Lionel with Stan's adding the diode. It works. The LED maybe a little dim.

I'm not sure whether I should open my others and add the Diode? They have worked for a few years. The one that didn't, was purchased used, that way.

And what do you mean you hooked it up...is it all working now?

Sorry, I just got the new switch in and installed it right away.

Engineer-Joe posted:

I hooked mine up exactly as it was from Lionel with Stan's adding the diode. It works. The LED maybe a little dim.

You mean the LED is dim on that "Light Country" brand replacement switch from eBay?  I suspect that is why cjack lowered the 15k resistor to brighten his switch. 

It sounds like the LEDs built into the stock switches of your other bricks are brighter than those in the eBay replacement switches.  Adding the diode is good protection and does not materially affect the LED brightness in this application (a couple percent which should be imperceptible).  

stan2004 posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

I hooked mine up exactly as it was from Lionel with Stan's adding the diode. It works. The LED maybe a little dim.

You mean the LED is dim on that "Light Country" brand replacement switch from eBay?  I suspect that is why cjack lowered the 15k resistor to brighten his switch. 

It sounds like the LEDs built into the stock switches of your other bricks are brighter than those in the eBay replacement switches.  Adding the diode is good protection and does not materially affect the LED brightness in this application (a couple percent which should be imperceptible).  

 

Sorry again! I'll have to edit my post.

On my workbench under lights, the LED looked dim. I installed the brick back under my layout on it's panel, and it looks the same as the other stock brick does.