Now the CAB3 has jumped to $439! Are they kidding? Pre order!
Who is it that's kidding? MSRP for the Base 3 in both the 2022 v2 and 2023 v1 catalogs is $499.99. It hasn't appeared to change.
Am I missing something? Preorder price maybe? Discounted? Or not?
Mike
@Don Beck posted:Now the CAB3 has jumped to $439! Are they kidding? Pre order!
Are you referring to the Base 3 or Cab 3? Isn't Cab 3 going to be the app?
Base. My bad
I would be happy if they just made something like this:
It has TWO speed dials!
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They don’t want to be on the hardware remote business IMO. They have their reasons whether we agree with them or not.
Their “reasons” are irrelevant. Not listening to customers is a great way to sink a business.
@rplst8 posted:Their “reasons” are irrelevant. Not listening to customers is a great way to sink a business.
Their business will be fine. They are listening but IMO and my opinion only, there is just not enough reason to invest in a hardware remote when technology and feature sets change so quickly. They could design a new and improved remote and by the time it's ready for market be obsolete. Years ago when things weren't changing every other year you could suspect that the product life would be 10 years+. Now the latest and greatest comes out almost every year with all new features. The fact that they have incorporated the ability to use the Cab1L and Cab2 with Base 3 says they are listening. Remotes are still a thing and they still work.
Sorry while I do think the bean counters probably have too much pull in what gets made, I believe they also see the benefits of an App based controller. Unlike many here I just don't see the folks from Lionel sitting in Concord trying to figure out how they can screw with us. I suspect it's quite the opposite. How can they give us as much as possible, future proof it, and still be able to make a profit to continue to make other products. Maybe if you think it's a mistake, organize a movement and approach Lionel. It's worked in the past as someone alluded to the ERR situation and even the Black Modules.
I can hear it now. Lionel makes a new hardware remote, a new feature comes out that only the App can support and everyone will want another new remote with that button that does the thing the App only does now. We'll be having the same conversation again in a year or two.
I will state and have always held the position that I absolutely prefer a hardware remote but I am also realistic about the cost of a smaller company to invest in the R&D and all the other costs to bring a new product to market. Then the demand has to be there and to be honest OGR is a small sampling of the market. I'm sure Lionel has done their homework on this.
I still think a dumb controller that cradles the "smart device" as it's brains could be a compromise to give folks a tactile feel of the controls that are most used without needing to invest a ton of time, money, and effort.
If I had a dollar every time someone predicted Lionel was going to sink their business...
@MartyE It's like you summarized my exact thoughts. Outstanding!
@MartyE posted:I still think a dumb controller that cradles the "smart device" as it's brains could be a compromise to give folks a tactile feel of the controls that are most used without needing to invest a ton of time, money, and effort.
Yes. And if they won't figure it out, we should. I'm still leaning on mapping video game controllers to the phone but I looked up tutorials on a DIY tactile feedback adapter. They do exist.
@MartyE posted:I still think a dumb controller that cradles the "smart device" as it's brains could be a compromise to give folks a tactile feel of the controls that are most used without needing to invest a ton of time, money, and effort.
This has been my thought, as well, since the announcement that they could no longer keep producing CAB2's. And best of all, it could be used with ANY "smart device" app being used to run trains of any manufacturer or scale (thinking MTH, DCC, etc.) with just a little support from the app programmers.
Andy
I did this a while ago when this all started...
Realistically you could map the controls to the Cab3 App or the MTH WiFi App. Use one controller for both.
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Fascinating concept you have there, Marty.
Maybe Lionel is in a "Catch-22" situation. I recall the article by (I think) Dave Olson in past OGR where he said, "everyone has a Smart or cell Phone" and that was the lightbulb moment for the Base 3 design. That's somewhat assumptive, however. It may be true, but not everybody likes using them; and not to beat a dead horse, some of us want to escape the digital-virtual world when we descend into our basement kingdoms and/or disaster areas 
There's likely a loss or alienation of certain % of the market due to modern trains and control systems getting too complex to use (this applies across the board of all companies). I still think collectors drive Lionel sales revenue, and a % of them will never build a layout, and so for them the control systems are irrelevant. If my hunch is correct, that brings the discussion back to the cost factor for Lionel's investment board: is it worth investing x dollars for a new handheld controller when x% of our customers would never buy it.
@Paul Kallus posted:There's likely a loss or alienation of certain % of the market due to modern trains and control systems getting too complex to use (this applies across the board of all companies). I still think collectors drive Lionel sales revenue, and a % of them will never build a layout, and so for them the control systems are irrelevant.
So much rationalization in this thread, from many posters.
Paul,
So Lionel can ignore the wishes of operators because many, or most?, of it's customers are collectors and do not care about how to control their trains.
Be careful what you wish for. It might just come true. This would be an excellent way to lower Lionel's sales quickly and substantially.
Mke
You guys will never have to worry because the Base3 will never get released.
Mike, I don't think Lionel has or is ignoring us (the customers). In the OGR article I cited above, Dave referenced the economic and/or supply factors in obtaining parts for handheld controllers. The sales percentages due to collectors and operators is speculation on my part. Nevertheless, in the end, it comes down to investment and rate of return for Lionel. The same rational applies to improving Quality control - that costs money, too. The main point I was trying to make was what I feel is a presumptive notion that everyone has and/or wants to use a Smart Phone for controlling their trains.
I 100% agree with Marty. I am fortunate to have a cab-2 that works. I sold my cab1s as I no longer needed them. I also sold my DCS remotes too in favor of the MTH DCS app. I had a brief setback when one of my WIUs was not working but that is resolved.
Let's see how the base 3 evolves. I will buy one at some point I am sure but right now, even if available, I don't see any must haves.
John
@superwarp1 posted:You guys will never have to worry because the Base3 will never get released.
I bet it gets delivered before that A1 Berkshire.
@Paul Kallus posted:Nevertheless, in the end, it comes down to investment and rate of return for Lionel. The same rational applies to improving Quality control - that costs money, too. The main point I was trying to make was what I feel is a presumptive notion that everyone has and/or wants to use a Smart Phone for controlling their trains.
I think had the Cab1L not been created, they would be more inclined to develop a new Cab 2.
Lets not forget. The original Cab1 was deemed obsolete, never to be offered again. After all of the outcries, it reappeared as the Cab 1L. Yes I know the electronics are different but still...
So now, as long as the Cab1L is available Lionel can say, "thats good enough". Since the touch screen component is the achilles heel of a new cab 2 handheld. I would be content with multi function push buttons in its place. The display should be a non issue since DCC uses a digital display.
@BillYo414 posted:@MartyE It's like you summarized my exact thoughts. Outstanding!
Yes. And if they won't figure it out, we should. I'm still leaning on mapping video game controllers to the phone but I looked up tutorials on a DIY tactile feedback adapter. They do exist.
RE: Game controller support. You may be interested in following my progress with LBC here: https://ogrforum.com/...c-legacy-err-edition
I've got basic functionality mapped and built out/working with a dual sense 5 API (PS5 controller). Still very in-alpha, but a living demo. No proper screen for feedback, but I'm looking into what's possible piece by piece.
Where is this scientific evidence of "collectors vs. operators" argument? There is good reason (Dave has pointed it out in various videos) that Lionel needed to develop the next gen of controller. He is correct, (we may not like it) that "everyone has a smart phone" I am happy I have two CAB2 devises and hopefully they last me. I get the reasoning for the new CAB3. SW updates through WIFI, 4 number addressing...etc.,after that I'm at a lost to what the new CAB3 is offering for $440. I'll wait to see it in action and see what the feedback is.
@RickO posted:I bet it gets delivered before that A1 Berkshire.
In all seriousness I don't think we'll see either
@superwarp1 posted:In all seriousness I don't think we'll see either
We'll see Base3.
@MartyE posted:We'll see Base3.
Hold your breath
As I recall, the pre-order price at Charles Ro for the Base 3 was $400. Now $439 unless I am mistaken. For comparison, at Legacy Station, the pre-order price for the DCS WI-FI TIU is $360. Right now, both are unavailable.
@MartyE posted:Their business will be fine. They are listening but IMO and my opinion only, there is just not enough reason to invest in a hardware remote when technology and feature sets change so quickly. They could design a new and improved remote and by the time it's ready for market be obsolete. Years ago when things weren't changing every other year you could suspect that the product life would be 10 years+. Now the latest and greatest comes out almost every year with all new features. The fact that they have incorporated the ability to use the Cab1L and Cab2 with Base 3 says they are listening. Remotes are still a thing and they still work.
Yes it works with the older remotes, but the only one that is in production is the 1L. The Cab-1L is no where near as good as the Cab-2. As someone who adopted Legacy more slowly, and uncovered the differences one at a time, I’ve come to realize just how good “full Legacy” control is. It mostly comes down to the absolute speed steps that make MU consists run so much more smoothly.
Even for ERR locomotives, I usually use 32 step mode and switch to the DCS controller because it sends absolute step commands instead of relative ones.
The reason it works so much better is that when a unit in a consist misses a speed command and gets out of sync with the other units, a flick up and down on the throttle sends another absolute command, and they all change to that new step.
In relative mode (which is what the Cab-1 and Cab-1L use) if an engine misses a throttle up or down command, the only way to sync them up again is to bring the whole consist to a stop and then try again, and hope it doesn’t miss it again.
How can they give us as much as possible, future proof it, and still be able to make a profit to continue to make other products.
This is the red herring. Cell phones and tablets will NEVER be future proof, and are beyond the means of even the most talented model railroader to build from the ground up. In order for there to be any semblance of “future proofness” Lionel will have to commit to upgrading their apps in near perpetuity and be at the behest of two tech giants and their passing whims.
Maybe if you think it's a mistake, organize a movement and approach Lionel. It's worked in the past as someone alluded to the ERR situation and even the Black Modules.
That’s what we’re trying to do here.
I can hear it now. Lionel makes a new hardware remote, a new feature comes out that only the App can support and everyone will want another new remote with that button that does the thing the App only does now. We'll be having the same conversation again in a year or two.
Another red herring. The Cab-2 had software in it under Lionel’s control. Features can be added.
I will state and have always held the position that I absolutely prefer a hardware remote but I am also realistic about the cost of a smaller company to invest in the R&D and all the other costs to bring a new product to market. Then the demand has to be there and to be honest OGR is a small sampling of the market. I'm sure Lionel has done their homework on this.
I still think a dumb controller that cradles the "smart device" as it's brains could be a compromise to give folks a tactile feel of the controls that are most used without needing to invest a ton of time, money, and effort.
If I had a dollar every time someone predicted Lionel was going to sink their business...
Let’s be honest. The ship has sunk a few times, only for other’s to resurrect “the brand”.
I had a nice conversation with Dave Olson about the cab2. He informed me that it's currently not economically feasible to build a new remote with displays and touchscreens. He said the street price would be so high, no one would buy it. He said lionel would consider one in the future if they could build one affordably. Its the same reason they discontinued the sensor track sensors. Their cost went through the roof so they stopped making them. Lionel does not have the luxury of doing a large production run so their build costs are higher. I appreciated his honesty. The cab3 app was their next best option. Based on what he told me, I believe that lionel would build a new hardware remote if they could.
@rplst8 posted:Yes it works with the older remotes, but the only one that is in production is the 1L. The Cab-1L is no where near as good as the Cab-2. As someone who adopted Legacy more slowly, and uncovered the differences one at a time, I’ve come to realize just how good “full Legacy” control is. It mostly comes down to the absolute speed steps that make MU consists run so much more smoothly.
Even for ERR locomotives, I usually use 32 step mode and switch to the DCS controller because it sends absolute step commands instead of relative ones.
The reason it works so much better is that when a unit in a consist misses a speed command and gets out of sync with the other units, a flick up and down on the throttle sends another absolute command, and they all change to that new step.
In relative mode (which is what the Cab-1 and Cab-1L use) if an engine misses a throttle up or down command, the only way to sync them up again is to bring the whole consist to a stop and then try again, and hope it doesn’t miss it again.
This is the red herring. Cell phones and tablets will NEVER be future proof, and are beyond the means of even the most talented model railroader to build from the ground up. In order for there to be any semblance of “future proofness” Lionel will have to commit to upgrading their apps in near perpetuity and be at the behest of two tech giants and their passing whims.
That’s what we’re trying to do here.
Another red herring. The Cab-2 had software in it under Lionel’s control. Features can be added.
Let’s be honest. The ship has sunk a few times, only for other’s to resurrect “the brand”.
I respect your opinions but we'll just have to disagree. I just don't see how Lionel could continue to produce a remote in the changing technology landscape. The App is the best route IMO where as features change and evolve so can the app. The remote is limited by the buttons and hardware that was available at the time it is/was produced. Yes features can be added to CAB2 as long as there is a button and memory available. Once that's used up we are back to a new remote or no additional features.
In reality in the near future I don't expect anyone to produce a hardware remote for anything anymore when you can add a feature set with it's own set of controls with a programming code.
There was a time in my business, broadcasting, where a room was filled with button panels dedicated for doing nothing other than switching video and audio signals. Now we have touchscreens that not only replicate the button panels but with a swipe up you can now adjust the parameters of the video signal, operate a video server, transfer files between devices, and the list goes on. Maybe not the best example but 5 years ago I would have never wanted that but the advantages are endless and the cost savings of a tablet running these apps is overwhelming when you consider we used to have to purchase multiple panels to do the less.
Very, very well stated. Get over it guys. You are either going to the APP based new CAB platform or your dying CAB2 will outlive you (if you are luck)y)! or they pry it from from your dying hands. What I dont get is why its so damm expensive (CAB3). But whatever. I'll let you early adopters have it!
I appreciate and fully understand what Dave Olson has said.
Not to beat a horse, that if not already dead, is in imminent danger of expiring, Lionel's notion that "everyone owns a Smartphone" is not accurate. I, and am sure many other O-gauge foamers have one. Some older people I know prefer flip phones, and they only use them when they leave home. So, for this % of the market who want to get the most features out of their Lionel Legacy trains, they'll need to buy a Base 3 + Smartphone. That's an expensive proposition.
Im old enough to remember the transition from rotary phones to touch tone. People lost their minds. Time marches on. I guess those 'older people' will have to go back to conventional operation if they cant afford a smart phone (most carriers are basically giving them away with a subscription to the service, so I dont what the issue is...trade that flip phone!) Too bad. We need this kind of technology or 'training' will get stuck in the rotary phone days!
@Don Beck posted:I guess those 'older people' will have to go back to conventional operation if they cant afford a smart phone (most carriers are basically giving them away with a subscription to the service, so I dont what the issue is...trade that flip phone!) Too bad. We need this kind of technology or 'training' will get stuck in the rotary phone days!
Apples and oranges comparison. You've always had to look at a phone to dial regardless of type.
The cab 2 is the only device that allows meat and potatoes train operation without even looking at it. One can navigate the main controls by feel, and keep their eyes on the train, which is especially important for switching moves. Also important if you want to bring your train in to the station in a slow realistic stop.
A touch screen on a device is all or nothing . Unless you have toothpicks for fingers it's likely you'll skip most of the 200 speed steps of a Legacy locomotive.
I have enough remotes to get me through my time in this hobby so I'm not really concerned.
Making the assumption that folks don't want to use an app because they don't like change, or new technology is false. The cab 2 is simply better for running trains if your doing anything outside of starting them and letting them run in circles for an hour.
oh well, time marches on...
One thing is for sure: the prices of the Legacy 993 Cab II's are in the stratosphere ~ $600 to $900 in the last couple of months per completed e-bay sales. I've got a hunch these are not just older folks buying them, as many older people are on fixed incomes to begin with, and hopefully it's not hoarders or speculators; rather I'd bet its ordinary train operators who simply prefer the Cab II over their Smart devices.
@Paul Kallus posted:One thing is for sure: the prices of the Legacy 993 Cab II's are in the stratosphere ~ $600 to $900 in the last couple of months per completed e-bay sales.
When the rumors of the cab 2 discontinuation began, prior to the Base 3. I grabbed a 993 for $289 on Amazon. I alerted fellow forum members. They were sold out in a few days.
Best "train decision"I ever made.
Theres one up for $1300 on ebay now From an estate. These sellers know what they have. I luckily have two that I hope will last my lifetime. I will try the CAB3 once the bugs get worked out and I understand Lionels thinking in developing this (over two years now?) but I, like others will prefer it to the CAB3, with or without all the new gizmos!
@RickO posted:Making the assumption that folks don't want to use an app because they don't like change, or new technology is false. The cab 2 is simply better for running trains if you doing anything outside of starting them and letting them run in circles for an hour.
Extremely well said.
I apologize in advance for these harsh words, but this is important:.
It has nothing to do with age or fear of technology. It's about what's best for doing the job at hand, not simply what's passable, or convenient, or less expensive to make.
Followers in any industry have to be rabid about keeping costs under control (decreasing costs) because they often just follow the leader and price their stuff accordingly. Leaders, however, have less to worry about with cost control because they also specialize in adding value (innovating and then increasing prices because customers are willing to pay more for this added value). They can demand premium prices and get them, as a result, if they add what people truly want.
Is Lionel still about, because it's always has been about, "premium"? If it's stuff is priced based on "premium", and it's a true leader, then it's approach to this situation should be clear.
Listen to the customers. Give them what they want and not just what they'll accept.
Don't feed them excuses for why you don't want to, or can't continue to, innovate and add recognized value, especially after 120 years of doing so very successfully.
Mike
@MartyE posted:I respect your opinions but we'll just have to disagree. I just don't see how Lionel could continue to produce a remote in the changing technology landscape. The App is the best route IMO where as features change and evolve so can the app. The remote is limited by the buttons and hardware that was available at the time it is/was produced. Yes features can be added to CAB2 as long as there is a button and memory available. Once that's used up we are back to a new remote or no additional features.
You’re creating limitations that don’t actually exist, especially with modern hardware and software.
No one serious is saying a new remote should have only buttons. Nor is anyone saying it cannot have a touchscreen. Nor is anyone saying that an exact Cab-2 replica the only acceptable solution.
The remote will likely need two primary things that will require long term support for a sustainable future for Legacy control. One is some sort of display and the other is a microprocessor. There are plenty of long-lived processor families that while frequently discontinued, have direct drop in replacements that are 100% backward compatible year, after year, after year. Displays are slightly tougher, but I don’t think dot matrix black and white LCDs are going anywhere in the next 20 years. Even if they were, COLOR dot matrix LCDs will probably outlive them by another 20 years, and we haven’t even touched the subject of high-res touch screen parts that natively support HDMI/DVI or have serial interfaces. They are cheap, plentiful, and versatile, and combined with a row of multifunction buttons on the sides or top and bottom, would support whatever crazy and cool features that Ryan and Dave could think up.
Memory is a non-issue nowadays so features can continue to be added just like they could be added in an app.
There was a time in my business, broadcasting, where a room was filled with button panels dedicated for doing nothing other than switching video and audio signals. Now we have touchscreens that not only replicate the button panels but with a swipe up you can now adjust the parameters of the video signal, operate a video server, transfer files between devices, and the list goes on. Maybe not the best example but 5 years ago I would have never wanted that but the advantages are endless and the cost savings of a tablet running these apps is overwhelming when you consider we used to have to purchase multiple panels to do the less.
Well I’ve worked in audio production a lot, and through and after the transition to digital touch screens only augmented physical controls, they didn’t and haven’t replace them.
@RickO posted:When the rumors of the cab 2 discontinuation began, prior to the Base 3. I grabbed a 993 for $289 on Amazon. I alerted fellow forum members. They were sold out in a few days.
Best "train decision"I ever made.
Me too, Rick 
, for a little more than what you paid, at a midwest train shop. It was on this forum where I read the scuttlebutt about Lionel no longer making the controllers. And, I did the same thing with the DCS controller when MTH said "no more remotes will be made after such and such a date,", from also reading this forum. Both the DCS and Cab II controllers are fun, pure and simple, in their own respects.
I doubt other scales are faced with this conundrum...especially HO'ers.
@MartyE posted:I respect your opinions but we'll just have to disagree. I just don't see how Lionel could continue to produce a remote in the changing technology landscape. The App is the best route IMO where as features change and evolve so can the app. The remote is limited by the buttons and hardware that was available at the time it is/was produced. Yes features can be added to CAB2 as long as there is a button and memory available. Once that's used up we are back to a new remote or no additional features.
In reality in the near future I don't expect anyone to produce a hardware remote for anything anymore when you can add a feature set with it's own set of controls with a programming code.
There was a time in my business, broadcasting, where a room was filled with button panels dedicated for doing nothing other than switching video and audio signals. Now we have touchscreens that not only replicate the button panels but with a swipe up you can now adjust the parameters of the video signal, operate a video server, transfer files between devices, and the list goes on. Maybe not the best example but 5 years ago I would have never wanted that but the advantages are endless and the cost savings of a tablet running these apps is overwhelming when you consider we used to have to purchase multiple panels to do the less.
Marty as always you are on the money here. Technology is always changing, and things tend to be easier with certain platforms, or even cheaper. As it was said above the cost of building a new remote would be expensive, and within a certain number of years, outdated.
I love my remote, and will always use it until it explodes. If I have to use an app at some point, I guess I'll get there eventually. Until that day comes, I'll keep an eye on how things progress.
While people say foul for no new remote, consider how fast technology changes. If you still have a remote and use it like me, be thankful for that. There will be changes that will inevitably come, you won't be able to stop it. So, do like Rick did, get a backup plan. It will extend your fun if that is what you want to do.
@rplst8 posted:The remote will likely need two primary things that will require long term support for a sustainable future for Legacy control. One is some sort of display and the other is a microprocessor. There are plenty of long-lived processor families that while frequently discontinued, have direct drop in replacements that are 100% backward compatible year, after year, after year. Displays are slightly tougher, but I don’t think dot matrix black and white LCDs are going anywhere in the next 20 years. Even if they were, COLOR dot matrix LCDs will probably outlive them by another 20 years, and we haven’t even touched the subject of high-res touch screen parts that natively support HDMI/DVI or have serial interfaces. They are cheap, plentiful, and versatile, and combined with a row of multifunction buttons on the sides or top and bottom, would support whatever crazy and cool features that Ryan and Dave could think up.
Memory is a non-issue nowadays so features can continue to be added just like they could be added in an app.
Well I’ve worked in audio production a lot, and through and after the transition to digital touch screens only augmented physical controls, they didn’t and haven’t replace them.
If they are starting from scratch yes this could all be done. A programmable touch screen and such. The resources and financial burden on a small company like Lionel may not make that feasible. Only they know what they can support in the way of new hardware. For us to assume one way or the other is a moot point but certainly fun for the sake of discussion.
It sounds to me what you are describing is the solution I put forward in a dumb interface, knobs, slider, and a button or two for the basic functionality with a smart device driving it with a nice screen to boot.
I would absolutely hate and so would the mixers I work with, that an audio console would go all touchscreen because that is in fact where you need to have that touch sensation is the faders but beyond the them and a few multipurpose controls they are pretty much there on all the other functionality. Although I am seeing them pop up for some secondary mixing positions where it's less critical. More of a "set and forget" scenario and where space is an issue. I still don't think this is as big of a crisis for the toy train industry.
Maybe some 3rd party can make an interface that truly works with both the DCS and Cab3 app that has the controls folks want. I would think if it was as easy and as lucrative to produce we'd already have something.
I would say though if you feel this strongly then I would actually write Lionel. While they monitor this board, a direct communication goes a lot further IMO than posting on a forum. If memory serves, the only reason the "J" stripe was repainted by Harry and the PE RPO car got new shells was because people went directly to Lionel.
Again good conversation.
