David, I agree that there is a market for new 15" passenger cars. I am not so sure that within this market, consumers will be willing to pay a premium price for added details to make them more scale like despite the obvious size difference.

Today, if I were looking to add 15" passenger cars to my layout, I would, like you with your newly acquired CZ set, seek out the K-Lines as the details are the same as the larger versions. They represent an excellent value in today's market.

It will be interesting to learn if those wanting more precise details on their 15" cars are willing to pay for it.

Good post that I hope some manufacturer pays attention.  I believe there is a market out there for premium 15" cars for those enthusiasts who just donot have the room for the more detailed 18 and 21" cars but would pay the extra money for more detailed 15" ones.

I think that highly-compressed (eg, 15") cars go hand-in-hand with lesser detail.  People who don't have room for full-scale cars also want to pay as little as possible.

Conversely, people demanding 21" cars also want all the detail and are willing to pay for it.

Make a 15" car with lots of detail and you will turn off both customer bases,

Making 15" detailed passenger cars should be done.  The size of the cars can't be equated to whether or not someone would pay their price.  Someone who is willing to pay for the details may only be limited by the size of their layout or the diameter of their layout curves.

What that market is would have to be researched.

Very true.......My layout does have 072 and 054 curves which handle the more detailed and scale rolling stock.......but on the flip side, my layout also has 031 and 036 curves which I would like to run more detailed passenger cars.  I know there are some detailed 15" rolling stock but I find that the ones I want are either way overpriced or hard to locate.  Price is always a factor but this is not a cheap hobby.

-Pete

But it does beg the question on whether it would once the rubber met the road.  Would the majority of prospective buyers be put off of a 15" version of a scale one with the same level of detail but at an identical price point?  Something tells me it's very likely; as there does seem to be a propensity of people to equate size to cost.  Look at what happened to the LionMaster locomotive line.  Lionel stated that it cost essentially the same to produce those as the full scale ones and that line was dropped because they knew full well consumers wouldn't pay the equivalent price.

K-line at the time they built the three sizes of passenger cars there was also three levels of pricing. 

I'm all in for a passenger car built to the same standards as the more scale cars but in 15". They should be priced accordingly. 

What if the extra details were available as a separate kit that the modeler can apply himself/herself?

I hope they're listening. Built what the buyer really wants, and they will sell. Seems that there is a larger group of modelers without the huge layouts, that if given an even chance at detailed items, will buy them. I get tired of the strips of silly looking passengers glued into windows and lighted, instead of detailed interiors. Yes, I'll pay a higher price for quality. But the passenger simulated strips are and should be left for the passenger cars of the 1940/50s era.

As I recall, how they priced their products contributed significantly to their demise.  Priced their mid- and top-of-the-line products to the point where they compromised their cash flow and were behind on paying the bills to the factory.

I know you are talking 15'' cars but you are also talking K-Line quqlity. I don't know if you are talking this quality or not but RMT is now starting to bring in 13 1/2'' cars made from the old K-Line tooling. An other thought talk to RMT about bringing in the 15'' cars.

I thought K-Line basiclly went under because of the lawsuit with Lionel?

Ok when you say 15" do you mean from coupler end to coupler end or from end to end of diaframs or from end to end of cars. below is my PRR by rail king they have interior I added people I got from china if you want some let me know there cheap. They also have some real nice signals real close to scale very reasonable. anway these cars are 16 5/8 coupler end to coupler end, 16" from diafram end to diafram end and from end to end of body 15" 

K-Line's 15" cars were identical to the 18" and 21" except for the length. The level of detail was exactly the same, just 3-6" less of it. I believe those cars sold pretty well, and you don't see them much on the secondary market, which tells me the owners are hanging on to them. Varying the car length is much easier to do with an extruded aluminum body than with a plastic casting. I think it would be worth some manufacturer's trouble to produce a couple of 15" sets and see how they sell. 

Also, there were some prototype 60-foot cars. I know there were some Harriman Standard cars at that length, and the Atlas heavyweights are based on a 60' C&NW prototype. I don't know of any streamlined 60' cars, but that's not to say they didn't exist. 

K-line went under because they where using Lionel items with out there permission and the lawsuit that followed the price point had little to do with it althou it may have had a tiny bit it main dismiss was because of there own dealing and using unauthorized molds and other items belonging to Lionel and copy righted by Lionel 

I don't think the question is IF, it's WHEN?  Lionel currently has cataloged 15" cars that fit all the criteria mentioned here...even add on packs with station sounds.  Lionel!  Get your thumb out of your....and get the job done!  I'm waiting for my pre-order!

BTW  K-Line 15" streamline cars will not negotiate 031 curves...I've tried.  So they're not the answer to all our needs.

Bruce

The lawsuits and fallout after the initial settlement was a big part of it, but the fact that beforehand they were running into cash flow problems and having difficulties paying the factory for past production runs meant that they were already in trouble; the lawsuits and the settlement fallout was just the final nail in the coffin.

Dave,  do you run any of the RK streamliners?   As rtraincollector above mentioned, these are really nice semi-scale cars and a far better looking one that the 'common' 15" aluminum cars out there (other than K-lines). MTH did a good job on these as they appear well-proportioned and look good with postwar sized diesels.

They can be found at very reasonable prices and the addition of people puts them in a good class for realism IMO.

Yes, of course they could be made.  I think it is a great idea.  If I were Scott Mann, I'd take a chance at knocking out 50 or 100 sets of a popular road name, just like my scale cars, but shorter.  His do cost a penny or two.  But his 21 inch cars are things of beauty, but I agree with you, shorter is better.  I ahve the new ToT and while the cars will run on my layout they look a little extreme.  18" cars would be better, and maybe 15" 

Great idea.  Short doesn't have to mean undetailed and not highest quality.

Most people do NOT want to take these cars apart. It's a time consuming, tedious process. When it comes to passenger cars, RTR is the best bet. Most people (including myself) complain about not having enough people in the cars, and still don't take them apart to fill them up. 10 people per car, if any... come on, that's not nearly enough.

I took apart an 18" dome car to do some interior painting and fill it with people... it took 50 people in 1 car, and different size people at that, to get the dome full.  

"Lionel stated that it cost essentially the same to produce those as the full scale ones and that line was dropped because they knew full well consumers wouldn't pay the equivalent price."

they may have thought that, but i am not sure it is true.  i cannot run anything requiring O72 curves.  i have a LM big boy, which i like a lot.  i had an LM challenger.  i think there was an LM cab forward at one point and i wish i had gotten it.  it was a while ago, but i don't remember price being that big a factor in my buying decision.  the sell point was the fact that these engines would run on my layout.

i would really like a LM veranda turbine.  

If nothing else, produce some "Pullman Heavyweights" in 15". Every railroad seemed to have some, or a string of just Pullman's instead of road names.

The LionMaster Legacy Big Boy and T1 from a few years back retailed for almost $900 barring retail markdowns.   That's roughly in between couple to a few hundred dollars less than the full scale versions (again MSRP).  Lionel basically said it couldn't maintain that price difference between the two to make it profitable, and did state to the effect that closing the price difference between LionMaster and the full scale premium line would have priced a lot of the target buyers out of the market.  There also have been posts in the past by LionMaster owners that were grumbling about the prices increasing into full-scale premium territory so it would seem that you and those with similar mindset might be the outliers in this situation.

Looks like I'm going to be doing surgery in the near future.  I have a LIONEL 15" full dome that will need people.  Fortunately, they are seated around tables which should keep the numbers down from what coach seating would require.

I have both Lionel 18" scale heavyweights and Railking 16" semi-scale heavyweights. To me, the 18" cars look too large on any track diameters less than 96" diameter. Even on O-96 they overhang in the inside of the curve; on O-72 the overhang is very pronounced and downright silly looking.

The Railking 16", actually 15" car length, look great, once I installed figures. The rivet and under-carriage detail is just as good as the scale cars.

Those with larger layouts, will of course have heavier passenger traffic and fill their passenger cars full, same with medium and smaller layouts, less traffic, less passengers in cars. In fact, my passenger cars ran empty for months before scenery came up, people started filling the layout. Low and behold, suddenly 1/2 dozen passengers started filling the cars. With expansion coming, I see in the future an increase or more little people riding the trains.

As for David's point about the manufacturers producing 15", somewhat detailed, passenger cars, I agree there is a market for them.  Almost none of those produced in years past show-up on the secondary markets suggesting they are kept and not recycled for the next new thing; e.g. 18" and 21" cars. 

Just because most don't have the space for the closer to scale length cars, doesn't mean that we won't pay a premium for 15" cars with scale details.  One has only to look at the quality of the layouts, equipment rosters, structures, etc. that folks running shorter passenger trains displayed on this very forum to know that these folks aren't "looking to pay as little as possible" (in the pejorative sense of that phrase as used above). 

Another question would be do they still have the tooling to produce those 15 inch KLine type passenger cars. If yes than it really wouldn't add much cost to the set. They are cranking out add on cars for their ready to run sets at 69.00 a car. Isn't everyone getting tired of the same old road names getting re released? If I see another set of Santa Fe passengers car released it would be too soon. You can pick up a set at a very reasonable cost too. I am not an owner of a major company so I can't say if it would be a loser or not.  The amount of people on the OGR forum asking for new CZ is pretty high. Atlas has a problem of releasing them on time too. I am sure MTH or Lionel could stick closer to or atleast a more accurate release date. I agree with the post above that they should crank out a couple of hundred sets and see what happens.  I don't know about anyone else hear but I never have trouble tracking down a set of modern passenger cars. It seems more of MTH but still they can be had. Maybe someone at one of the big companies should monitor the auction sites and see the rediculous price that people are willing to pay for a KLine 15" aluminum passenger car.  Who knows maybe this will get someone to rethink it. If I am not mistaken could they not know through pre orders if this would be a success or not?

I for one would love highly detailed but shortened cars.  Having cars that are scale size in every way except length, thus allowing them to navigate tighter curves, would be awesome!  I would buy some.  Many of us run larger engines like the MTH Imperial line ones that dwarf some cars.  

That's a few easy ways to resolve that "overhang" issue with scale cars:

1) Use larger curves (okay, not as easy as the others but if you can do it, then jump on in)

2) Watch your trains running at eye level instead of overhead like viewing it from a helicopter or a high-rise.  Overhang will seem less noticeable.

3) Obscure or conceal offending curves with scenery, ie, tunnels, hills, trees, buildings.

4) Ignore it (look away at something else when your train goes into or out of curves).

See, easy.