3RD Rail CF7 - YEAH OR NAY

I'd go for one or two of these ugly ducklings. Preferably with ditch lights and offered undecorated. 

No sale.  I wouldn't buy one with your money.

AT $800.00 ea... Nay.  

If Scott doesn't think they can get enough orders for FP45's to pull the El Capitan cars, there is no way he'd get enough orders for a CF7

Nay, alas. While I think that CF-7s are a long-overlooked good idea, I'm collecting for an era decades before the first CF-7 emerged from John Santa Fe's Cleburne, Texas shops.

EDIT: Back when my focus was primarily three-rail, I repeatedly suggested to Bachmann's sales representatives that they make a CF-7 for their Williams line. Nothing ever came of that.

I still think that a CF-7 would make a nice locomotive for a short line or a terminal railroad set in the contemporary era, but since I've decided that my "broad gauge" collecting stops at 1950, CF-7s are too anachronistic for me.

I'd rather have more modern power, such as a correct SD70M or SD70MAC....

No Thank You!

Simon

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

AT $800.00 ea... Nay.  

Unfortunately, as much as I'd love to own such a model, price decides it for me, too. I won't bore everyone again with the $ - £ exchange rate and other costs I'd face on top as well...

So a reluctant Nay here, too.

I am not interested either.     I model PRR in western PA in early 60s for diesels and there were none owned by RR and no evidence any visited the Mongonhela Division.

Although Number 90 is so faithful to his Home Road that he still turns toward 80 East Jackson, Chicago, with his hand on his heart before retiring for the night, those things (CF7's) were built as cheaply as possible from the cannibalized remains of elegant rednose F3's and F7's as well as noble blue 200 Class F7's and F9's, and -- although he has used all of his Southern manners to conceal it -- he detests these machines.  Therefore, he will not be purchasing any models of them, unless they are for target practice.

But the homely, I mean hard-working, things did earn their keep, didn't they?  Bless their hearts.

John, I have a lot of respect for you and you will always have an open invitation to my house and layout but that loco is and always been an "ugly" one I know some modellers like it so that is just my opinion.

I'm sorry if I am hi Jacking the thread mate but if Scott Mann started a run of smaller switchers like the SW 1200, 1500, NW2, or even a EMD SW1 you would have my immediate interest and maybe my wallet.

So I guess it's another Nay.

Neville. (Roo)

I'd be in for a pair, but it's an odd locomotive in that Santa Fe (and by extension LA Junction) is the only road that had them, but they're all over the country and still in use on branch lines and private use. It's almost the type of locomotive that would be better done undecorated-only.

I would rather have the FM TM and the FM H-16-44.

Ed

Ed mentioned the F-M and 16-44.  K-Line did a pretty good job, and I understand MTH did even better.  I dislike plastic models, but at a hundred bucks a pop, these beauties were difficult to resist:

Dear Forum members,

      Great responses on a singular locomotive question of production for Scott Mann.

It looks like I will continue to enjoy my PRB CF7 in both versions.

I will start a new thread on another singular locomotive for a Scott Mann to consider in a few days.

Scott is a businessman in the tough  O scale 2 and 3 rail market and these threads hopefully helps him on future endeavors.

Thank you. John 

Strasburg 08/11/18 and 10/13/18

Well, I would say should an SDL39 come along in Milwaukee, of course, or either of the 2 Wisconson short line or even the re-gauged line in Chile that gives him an option of 4 paint schemes. If he doesn't want to make that loco how about GP20.

Dick

Nay.

Here's another slant to the question:- given the overwhelmingly negative response, is that more because of the loco type itself, or rather the premium price it would come in at from that Manufacturer?

SundayShunter posted:

Here's another slant to the question:- given the overwhelmingly negative response, is that more because of the loco type itself, or rather the premium price it would come in at from that Manufacturer?

Not a lot of appeal except to those who do the Santa Fe, unless you just like that particular engine. A waste of a perfectly good "F" unit in my opinion!

Simon

hi,

i would say yes for a CF7.  This engine can cover a time periode from `70 till now. 

When the model and the parts will be designed in an modular style for the manufacturer, it can be made as F Types, (frame/trucks), GP7/9 types (here also the hood for the CF7), rebuilt GP10/GP16 (the hoods grom GP7)9 can be uses with modifications) and of course, several CF7 Types (round/square roof/dif. window styles) . One development can cover 4 engine types with variations. The development can cover a time periode from mid `50 till now.

And yes, they are no spectacular engines like a Kraus maffai or others, but those workhorses are the fleet for all branches. Modelers with less space (or more prototype oriented ones) can use it. Sorry for my repeat of my opinion, but with such engines you can arouse interest for modelers in the mid 40, they know the engines from the past, ore can use it, what they see outside. When no engines comes out for them, (means also GP38/40), no or less newcommers jump on. In H0 the manufacturer has realize, that the have to bring modern stuff--and guess, most of those engines and cars are sold out. I understand, that in 0 scale this would work not in this dimension, but a possibility is the development of a engine, that can cover a long time using periode and cover several types. For me, the first step did Lionel with there gondolas (with or without graffitti), or Atlas with bringing back the Berwicks and coalveyors.  An Other manufacturer bring the FMC 53 boxcar as kit, also stuff, that can be use from the mid `70 till now. 

my 2 cents

 thanks

kindest regards

Elmar

In my case, the answer is yes to the first question and no to the second. My problem with a model CF-7 is that it would be a glaring anachronism, almost as out-of-place as  USMRR eight-wheeler.

Would I buy  CF7? No.

Would I buy a KM? No.

Will others buy?  Yes.

If the CF7 has never been done I suspect it might garner a fair amount of interest.   IMHO (as I prattled before) most O scale sales are 3 rail and are for the fun of trains.  Not for prototype modeling which is what I do. 

Scott (or Atlas) isn't in business to please me but to sell products that please the most people.  By all means float the model and if the reservations come in that's a good thing. 

Not sure what the price would be, as mentioned by many it is just tooooooo ugly!

Pecos River Brass imported a CF7 back a while ago. Mechanically they are pretty good as they use the same drive as in the PSC SW models. Pittman can motor w flywheel and the transfer box and stout axle gearboxes. 

Their weakness is the soldering can be poor and need redoing with extra bracing needed to hold everything together. 

I re-assembled this one for a friend and covered up any heat damage to the paint with weathering.

Cant post pic too big I guess  

Peter

As to the question I say nay as I have a couple of these painted for my own lumber company road. 

John, Unfortunately I am a Nay as well for the CF7.   I would be in favor of a correct SD70 series, including the spartan cab versions. Might be interesting to see an SW1200 or SW1500 as well.

jdunn posted:

Dear Forum members,

      Great responses on a singular locomotive question of production for Scott Mann.

It looks like I will continue to enjoy my PRB CF7 in both versions.

I will start a new thread on another singular locomotive for a Scott Mann to consider in a few days.

Scott is a businessman in the tough  O scale 2 and 3 rail market and these threads hopefully helps him on future endeavors.

Thank you. John 

Strasburg 08/11/18 and 10/13/18

       

Can you post photos. I've only seen a Topeka Cab version "in the wild."

Rule292 posted:

If the CF7 has never been done I suspect it might garner a fair amount of interest.   IMHO (as I prattled before) most O scale sales are 3 rail and are for the fun of trains.  Not for prototype modeling which is what I do. 

Not quite 'never been done', (the old Pecos River version is now rare as hens teeth & priced to match) I think your post hits the nail on the head as to why there's talk of American 2-rail O Scale dying out completely. This thread has also reminded me of the reality I had only read about before in Lance Mindheim's writings; that the main Era of interest Stateside resolutely remains the Transition Era.

That's not a criticism, just a realisation from someone looking in from outside, so to speak. In the UK, despite a privatised rail system after years of a single nationalised company, we don't have anything like your Short Lines here. In fact even freight by rail is minimal here on what is essentially a passenger focussed network. So Short Lines in particular hold a fascination for us that might be hard for you guys to appreciate, hence interest in CF7s and 2nd gen. Geeps, rather than Steamers from 70 years ago or the latest high horsepower mainline diesels.

I had to look up a CF7 to see what it is/was. There's one on the RR that runs from Big Basin to Santa Cruz in California. What a butt-ugly beast, IMO, and especially since it came from such beautiful roots. What a shame.

RoyBoy posted:

I had to look up a CF7 to see what it is/was. There's one on the RR that runs from Big Basin to Santa Cruz in California. What a butt-ugly beast, IMO, and especially since it came from such beautiful roots. What a shame.

While they weren't the most attractive locomotives out there (the Topeka cab in particular), the CF7 is historically significant as Santa Fe saved a bundle versus trading in the F-units for Geeps ($60,000 per conversion vs. $150,000 but ended up being about $40,000 per conversion). The early ones retained part of the cab structure from the F-units (F7's primarily, but my understanding is that some F3's had been upgraded and were in the program). Later conversions had the boxy "Topeka Cabs" that were fabricated in the Topeka shops.

233 units were done, so the cost savings really added up. Though Santa Fe was the only road to have these as they did the conversion in their Cleburne, TX shops, at the end of their lives, many units escaped the torch and were sold to branch lines all over the country (I saw three of them in York, PA a couple of years ago) and are still in use. What surprised me is that other roads with a large population of F-units didn't try something similar. There are two theories of the CF7 designation, both of which are logical -- Converted F7 or Cleburne F7, the former being the more popular of the two. The irony is that there are now companies that are doing rebuilding/converting on older modern locomotives and/or building "new" ones utilizing old chassis.

And, what happened to the B-Units, you ask? Some did MU work on mainlines, some were sold/scrapped and some were converted to slugs and mated to CF7's. A-B-B-A just like old times. By the way, Santa Fe also did a rebuild on its fleet of SD24's, converting them to SD26's, motivated by the success of the CF7 program.

CBQer posted:

Well, I would say should an SDL39 come along in Milwaukee, of course, or either of the 2 Wisconson short line or even the re-gauged line in Chile that gives him an option of 4 paint schemes. If he doesn't want to make that loco how about GP20.

Dick

Come up with 148 additional reservations @ $1200 for the SDL39 and it shall be so.

No.

RDUNNIII,

How do get $1200 per unit?

Dick

AGHRMatt posted:

RoyBoy posted:

I had to look up a CF7 to see what it is/was. There's one on the RR that runs from Big Basin to Santa Cruz in California. What a butt-ugly beast, IMO, and especially since it came from such beautiful roots. What a shame.

While they weren't the most attractive locomotives out there (the Topeka cab in particular), the CF7 is historically significant as Santa Fe saved a bundle versus trading in the F-units for Geeps ($60,000 per conversion vs. $150,000 but ended up being about $40,000 per conversion). The early ones retained part of the cab structure from the F-units (F7's primarily, but my understanding is that some F3's had been upgraded and were in the program). Later conversions had the boxy "Topeka Cabs" that were fabricated in the Topeka shops.

233 units were done, so the cost savings really added up. Though Santa Fe was the only road to have these as they did the conversion in their Cleburne, TX shops, at the end of their lives, many units escaped the torch and were sold to branch lines all over the country (I saw three of them in York, PA a couple of years ago) and are still in use. What surprised me is that other roads with a large population of F-units didn't try something similar. There are two theories of the CF7 designation, both of which are logical -- Converted F7 or Cleburne F7, the former being the more popular of the two. The irony is that there are now companies that are doing rebuilding/converting on older modern locomotives and/or building "new" ones utilizing old chassis.

And, what happened to the B-Units, you ask? Some did MU work on mainlines, some were sold/scrapped and some were converted to slugs and mated to CF7's. A-B-B-A just like old times. By the way, Santa Fe also did a rebuild on its fleet of SD24's, converting them to SD26's, motivated by the success of the CF7 program.

Nice post Matt. Thanks for it. I learn some cool stuff just hanging around.

SundayShunter posted:

Rule292 posted:

If the CF7 has never been done I suspect it might garner a fair amount of interest.   IMHO (as I prattled before) most O scale sales are 3 rail and are for the fun of trains.  Not for prototype modeling which is what I do. 

Not quite 'never been done', (the old Pecos River version is now rare as hens teeth & priced to match) I think your post hits the nail on the head as to why there's talk of American 2-rail O Scale dying out completely. This thread has also reminded me of the reality I had only read about before in Lance Mindheim's writings; that the main Era of interest Stateside resolutely remains the Transition Era.

That's not a criticism, just a realisation from someone looking in from outside, so to speak. In the UK, despite a privatised rail system after years of a single nationalised company, we don't have anything like your Short Lines here. In fact even freight by rail is minimal here on what is essentially a passenger focussed network. So Short Lines in particular hold a fascination for us that might be hard for you guys to appreciate, hence interest in CF7s and 2nd gen. Geeps, rather than Steamers from 70 years ago or the latest high horsepower mainline diesels.

I specifically left out the PRB CF7 since it was available only in 2 rail.   I suspect the bulk of Sunset's CF7 sales would be three rail.  That isn't bad since more buyers of all shapes and sizes = more likelihood of the model coming to fruition.

As for the PRB CF7 I don't remember it (or PRB's other rebuild du jour, the GP15) being a particularly strong seller at the time of introduction.    Perhaps they are like like some people, they only became famous posthumously. 

SundayShunter posted:

Rule292 posted:

If the CF7 has never been done I suspect it might garner a fair amount of interest.   IMHO (as I prattled before) most O scale sales are 3 rail and are for the fun of trains.  Not for prototype modeling which is what I do. 

Not quite 'never been done', (the old Pecos River version is now rare as hens teeth & priced to match) I think your post hits the nail on the head as to why there's talk of American 2-rail O Scale dying out completely. This thread has also reminded me of the reality I had only read about before in Lance Mindheim's writings; that the main Era of interest Stateside resolutely remains the Transition Era.

Hi,

i think, this statement above will be truth, when nothing will happen. Therefor i wrote, that with an good choose of models, you can hit the interest of the upcoming 0 scale clientele. Only a few people in the mid 40 are interested in transition era, most of them will make those stuff, the know from prototype, from mid 70 till now. This is, why the idea for a modular designed model, which can cover several prototypes, perhaps this will make the decision for a producer more easier. 

And yes, it can be discussed, if a CF7 is ugly, but this depends on the taste, others are not really nicer. If you are prototype oriented, and you are in need of this (or other) engines, you will purchase it.

my2cents

kindest regards

Elmar  

SundayShunter posted:

Rule292 posted:

If the CF7 has never been done I suspect it might garner a fair amount of interest.   IMHO (as I prattled before) most O scale sales are 3 rail and are for the fun of trains.  Not for prototype modeling which is what I do. 

Not quite 'never been done', (the old Pecos River version is now rare as hens teeth & priced to match) I think your post hits the nail on the head as to why there's talk of American 2-rail O Scale dying out completely. This thread has also reminded me of the reality I had only read about before in Lance Mindheim's writings; that the main Era of interest Stateside resolutely remains the Transition Era.

That's not a criticism, just a realisation from someone looking in from outside, so to speak. In the UK, despite a privatised rail system after years of a single nationalised company, we don't have anything like your Short Lines here. In fact even freight by rail is minimal here on what is essentially a passenger focussed network. So Short Lines in particular hold a fascination for us that might be hard for you guys to appreciate, hence interest in CF7s and 2nd gen. Geeps, rather than Steamers from 70 years ago or the latest high horsepower mainline diesels.

It's hard to make a broad, sweeping statement concerning the small two-rail O community here in Texas, but I think I could generalize and say that interest in operating passenger trains is minimal (save for running a passenger train around the track). Most interest is in switching (shunting) freight cars and operating freight trains.

I'd hesitate to say that most two-railers here have set ourselves in the transition era, but I know of only a couple of modelers rostering second-generation diesels and no two-railers operating contemporary (Twenty-first century} locomotives and rolling stock. But I don't know everybody down here and there just aren't that many two-railers in Texas. I don't model the contemporary scene, but that's because I also see myself as a narrow gauge modeler and most US narrow gauge operations had folded or were about to in the mid-1950's.