Confused: Lionel "Baby", "Jr", "PW", "Semi-Scale"

AFAIK there is no strict definition for any of those terms, just that they generically mean "smaller than exact scale" and/or "less detail than exact scale."

Confused?...Even the manufacturers seemingly are as to what scale O is.. O is the semi-scale without a scale and variety is the spice of life. Looks like the Scene Master giant woman could take the puny and hapless Bachmann truck driver with one hand tied behind her back. Ouch. Uncle! My gigantor Bachmann engines make unmatched consists from RailKing etc look like kiddie cars. 

At one point, Lionel called their 027 line "Lionel Jr". They also called it "Winner Line" somewhere along the line. I am not certain of the order or the timespan for each name.
The stuff had its origins in Ives product.

I don't know that the original Lionel corp. ever used the term "Baby". I think collectors and operators coined that term.

Try placing a Scout and a turbine side by side. I think you'll see there is a difference.

In late 1990s I believe Lionel called their newly tooled Hudson a "Baby" Hudson.

Then shortly after that came the Hudson Jr, which is quite smaller than the baby Hudson.

In the photo below, the engines on the top and bottom shelfs are Baby Hudsons.

the engine in the middle shelf is a Hudson Jr.

Electroliner, I think your post is totally EPIC!

So Ed, it would seem that "baby" size is bigger than Junior size and Junior size is the same as O-27?

Thus, MTH's "Baby Turbine" should be larger than an O-27 Turbine, smaller than a scale Turbine, bigger than a Lionel Jr Turbine?

Now for the tough question, would the MTH Baby Turbine be larger or smaller than a Rail King Turbine or a Rail King Imperial Turbine?

"Jr." is the smallest

Next up is "Baby," which is also often synonymous with the Post War (PW) steamers

"Semi-Scale" is often still bigger but at least more detailed than "Baby."

"Scale" is scale.

I was at a train show today also and I saw an O gauge steamer. But this steamer was just huge. I almost thought it was G scale, but then I saw a sign "1/48 scale".  It was much bigger than any of my trains. 

Chipset did you just post on here that you bought a Century Club Turbine? Just an FYI the 681 is just a later version of that same engine. I think it had a few different details.

Bill

Yep, it is still in box though, but I can tell just by the box size it is smaller than I thought it would be.

That is fine though, because I thought it might be too big!

The tiny MTH Bantam Turbine is smaller than the old RailKing Turbine.  I have the RailKing version and it really impressed me how big it is for a O31 locomotive.  I think it will even do O27, but haven't tried it yet.  It looks quite nice next to my scale K-Line PRR bay window caboose.  I think it is also a bit larger than the old Lionel turbines.  I have seen both, but not had them next to each other.  I thought about getting one from a localish store that has many of them, but after seeing one in person, and how tine the drivers are I passed on it as my RailKing one was way better looking.  I also run mine on the smallest tender/locomotive gap setting on O36 and have no issues and the close coupling looks great.

Oh my...add "Bantam" to the list!

So an MTH Bantam is larger than a regular Rail King, but smaller than a "Baby" or "Junior", or O-27?

chipset,

Just MHO, but you need to stop trying to "make sense" of these terms before you drive yourself right off the deep end. There is no sense to them. They are just marketing terms chosen to generically mean "looks sorta like the prototype, but not to any particular scale, so you can't sue us for false advertising because it's not exact scale, and we needed a different term than what's trademarked by our competitors."

MTH Bantam is smaller than RailKing.

Rusty

Yes, as Rusty corrected you, you had it backwards.

chipset, if you are trying to compare sizes of the PRR turbine, perhaps it'd be better to ask for measurements of them, like total length, height, width, driver diameter, tightest curve, largest overhang, and so on to get sizing ideas.  But like stated above, there really isn't a 'standard' you can follow with the naming.  There is only scale and everything else.

"Scale"??? As long as no standards are met nor made, and we are gullible enough to think its "close enough". No standards will ever be made for our gauge.

What is surprising is that "N" and "HO" would never take the abuse we do and accept.

"What is surprising is that "N" and "HO" would never take the abuse we do and accept."

Wait a minute. Back the train up... 

For 95 years of Lionel's history, "scale" was hardly a concern. Despite of a couple attempts to produce "scale" items (which failed as they were short lived), Lionel has been a maker of TOY trains. If this bothered you, then you switched to either American Flyer or HO.

Now some of the items were close to scale proportion like the GP-9's, the F-3's and the Pennsy styled porthole caboose. No, they don't have the precision detail like today's trains do, but a lot of that was due to the manufacturing processes, and the materials and technology available at that time.

I highly doubt anyone of the 8 MILLION people (reliable estimates are that Lionel produced 8 million of them) who bought the short operating milk car NEVER considered the size of the car to be ABUSE!

Eight million, wow. I wonder if the entire production of all manufacturers scale product made in the past 20 years equals that number? I'd be inclined to doubt it, but who knows?

Then in the 1970's, Lionel introduced the "Standard 0" line of cars. They obviously had some success, as they stayed in production. But the VAST majority of Lionel products up to 1995, were TOYS that replicated real trains, and not precision scale models.

The introduction of TMCC changed everything. Along with the intense competition from first MTH, and then from K-Line. It's only been for the last 20 years of the ENTIRE history of 3-rail trains where "scale" has become such a touchy issue for some. 

I'm glad the scale items are available. The 3-rail rail market is not that big, and needs everyone to help insure the vitality of the hobby. But you can't undo 95 years of history, even in 20 years.

There are still a lot of people buying the non-scale items, though they don't generate the same amount of traffic on the forum here. I'm one of them. I don't worry about the terms, whether it is called Bantam, Rugged Rails, 027, Baby, Junior, or semi-scale... so long as it looks good on a smaller layout with 027 curves.

Sometimes I wonder if this is really the High Rail, 027, and Traditional 0 gauge forum or not.

Bet I'd create an uproar though if I posted on the 3-rail scale forum about how great the RMT S-4 Bang diesel is... how great it runs, how reliable it is, how good it looks on my layout...

LOL, I was, and used pics of figures and how much the word "Scale" various. Again, the figures sold as "O" scale.  LOL

One of the things I like about 3 rail O-gauge is the variety of sizes of toy trains available.

The Milwaukee Road car is about the closest to "scale" I have, but I think it may be a little undersized. The little boxcar next to it is a Marx O-gauge 4 wheel tin car. Quite a difference!  LOL

The back row is Marx and Lionel postwar stuff, some of which is more like S scale than O scale but still all O gauge. Most of my O-gauge falls into this size range as my layout is small and I use O-27 curves.

 Sure is a lot of discussions about scale on a forum dedicated to O-27 and traditional electric trains!  LOL