Continuing Saga of Lionel's poor new truck design

100% agree, Pat. I bought a ton of Lionel scale rolling stock when I converted my layout to scale - over 150 cars since 2012. I quit buying them when they went to the thumbtacks (after getting stuck with 8-10 preorders that I should’ve refused). I bought the Friendship cars after they announced the thumbtacks were gone. The “newer new” trucks on them are both cheap and non-functional. Even if I were willing to grind down a brand new car (I’m not), they still won’t track when coupled to one another without derailing. I’m done buying “again” until I physically see whatever the next iteration is.

This all seems so self-inflicted given the quality of the original design. I never believed for a minute this was about Kadee conversion. It was a cost saving move gone bad.

Lionel could certainly win some customers back (at least get us buying again) if they established an even exchange program.   I think most of us would have no issue swapping out trucks even those with pickup rollers.  

This would be a hit on the balance sheet and a loss to the company on the bottom line in the short term.   However the long-term customer base recovery would more than recover than in 2-3 years.  

So Lionel, are you ready to swallow your pride, admit to the mistakes, and then make them right?

@Steims posted:

Lionel could certainly win some customers back (at least get us buying again) if they established an even exchange program.   I think most of us would have no issue swapping out trucks even those with pickup rollers.  

This would be a hit on the balance sheet and a loss to the company on the bottom line in the short term.   However the long-term customer base recovery would more than recover than in 2-3 years.  

So Lionel, are you ready to swallow your pride, admit to the mistakes, and then make them right?

Good luck with that. Lionel couldn't come up with alternative J3a boiler fronts for the limited number of folks that bought and paid for them from Pats trains.

The best/easiest solution for the customer, is to not buy any Lionel rolling stock produced after 2016.

@BobbyD posted:

Did the Chinese tooling actually head to Europe? Or was that brand new tooling in Europe because as they say "you can't take it with you?" If it is the old Chinese tooling being used for production now, then why not use it to make those great trucks again?

I wonder the same thing! All the talk about tooling not leaving China, and yet, rolling stock previously made in China is now being made in Vietnam. I don't believe Lionel is making all new tooling for PS-1 box cars, 50' & 60' box cars, and others so they can produce the stuff in another country. That doesn't make sense. As far as the trucks are concerned, they are not cutting costs as much as raising profits. Lets face it, we get a cheapened truck and a price increase at the same time! The bean counters are saying more, more, more $$$$$!

How many of you believe that key personnel at Lionel are reading these threads? Or care about what we think?

RAY

@Ray of sunshine posted:

How many of you believe that key personnel at Lionel are reading these threads? Or care about what we think?

RAY

I'm not sure if you consider them 'key personnel". We know that Dave reads them, and possibly Ryan on occassion.  Dave has popped in a few times. I haven't checked their profiles to see when they last visited.

Previous Lionel CS managers and Engineers were fairly active on here.

Having said that, who working at Lionel would want to? Constant issues only means constant complaints, returns and warranty repairs. However, I think those are "curbed" by a severly understaffed phone and email services.

Ray, there are dozens of examples where Mike Reagan previously and now Dave Olson jump into an OGR thread to try and set the record straight.   Somebody must be reading something.  

Here's how Lionel explained the original changes to the truck design in 2016. Make of it what you will.

Thank you,
Mike Reagan"

When it comes to the bottom line any company cares.  While they should probably issue a statement, being expected to constantly monitor social media sites to respond to every gripe would be counter productive.

@Keith L posted:

Here's how Lionel explained the original changes to the truck design in 2016. Make of it what you will.

"Gentlemen,

Please let me take a moment and explain the change on these couplers, so everyone has the correct information from the "horse's mouth" as it were.

We have engineered a new scale truck which will be integrated on all Lionel scale cars moving forward......

I hope this helps clear the air on the truth about what we're doing and why you are seeing changes from what has been done in the past.

Thank you,
Mike
P.S. I will try to post some pics later today so you can "see" the improvements and changes that have been made to these new trucks.

Thank you,
Mike Reagan"

Keep in mind, though. These "newer trucks" didn't start derailing and having coupling issues until recently.

The only original complaint when these first started appearing in 2017-18 was they were "cheaper" due to the part plastic construction, thumbtacks, and non functioning springs in the suspension. All true, but at least the trucks worked.

Ironically, Mike "got outta Dodge", and joined Trainworx in Febuary 2017. Lionel has never been the same since.

@Farmall-Joe posted:

When it comes to the bottom line any company cares.  While they should probably issue a statement, being expected to constantly monitor social media sites to respond to every gripe would be counter productive.

Its difficult to get an answer from Lionels customer service phone number or email. Do you have any other ideas?

I called the customer service number and after holding for 10-15 min, I went straight to a tech.  Time before that, I was on hold for 20 min before a customer service person answered, listened to my story and transferred me to a tech, another 10-15 min wait.  I will say, the tech I spoke to, Aaron, is very good.

@Keith L posted:

Here's how Lionel explained the original changes to the truck design in 2016. Make of it what you will.

"Gentlemen,

Please let me take a moment and explain the change on these couplers, so everyone has the correct information from the "horse's mouth" as it were.

We have engineered a new scale truck which will be integrated on all Lionel scale cars moving forward.

This whole project of reengineering the trucks started with the acquisition of the Weaver tooling. Not being satisfied with the performance of the older Weaver die-cast trucks we needed a truck that would accommodate the new Lionscale cars as well as all existing Lionel scale cars. If you took the time to notice the thumbtack couplers in the images I certainly hope you took the time to notice the 2-rail conversion kits in the back of the catalog. These conversion kits are only applicable to the new scale trucks (the ones with the thumbtack in the images).

This truck uses an ABS bolster and 1 piece cast side frames (with separately applied springs). The level of detail is as good if not better than the existing truck side frames. The reason for the bolster being ABS is two fold;

1.) to prevent to need for a collector insulator when using a sprung collector on freight trucks (similar to the type we currently use on locomotives, to ensure a positive 100% of the time contact with the center rail)

2.) to allow for easy conversion to using scale couplers on 3-rail equipment and for converting to 2-rail. Yes, you read that correctly, 2-rail. (Lionel has never before offered a 2-rail conversion kit, so this is somewhat notable in the big scheme of things!)

The new scale truck design has 5 different length die-cast coupler armatures (same as our previous scale trucks had) which slide over a shoulder on the center of the bolster and also have a screw to firmly mount the coupler armature to the bolster. This design makes it very easy to remove the 3-rail coupler from the truck to mount a scale coupler to the car body, for those customers who wish to take that route.

The bolster also accommodates all the various accessories we have used on trucks over the last 20 years; hall effect sensors, axle straps, collectors, LED PCB's (for hot box accessory cars). The coupler armartures accommodate mechanical couplers as well as coil couplers.  

There are a total of 4 bolsters to be used with these side frames

Lionel 3-rail cars
Lionel 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversin kit)
Lionscale 3-rail cars
Lionscale 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversion kit)

Why so many bolsters? Because on Lionel scale cars the bolster is very close to the floor on the cars. On the Lionscale cars the bolster is a good distance away from the floor, so a one size fits all approach would simply not work. Then add in the 2-rail conversion and the ride height of the car needed to be lower than the ride height of 3-rail cars, hence we designed 4 different bolsters. Each of the 2-rail conversion kits; 50T and 70T will include 2 Lionel and 2 Lionscale 2-rail bolsters, so 1 kit will work with either product. Each 2-rail conversion kit includes 4 NMRA compliant 2-rail wheel and axle sets, the bolsters mentioned above, 4 axle straps (with 8 screws, as they are small and you will likely lose some installing the straps). There are 2 different kits as one has tapered axles for 50T journal box style side frames and the other has blunt end axles for 70T rotating bearing cap side frames (to keep the rotating bearing cap feature) (the 70T kit also includes some extra bearing caps in black). The end result is an NMRA compliant 2-rail truck that offers electrical pickup from all 8 wheels!

The design has been in the works for over 8 months and has been thoroughly tested on just about every 3-rail track system known to man as well as the 2-rail trucks (with electrical pickups). The design is solid and allows us to finally have a truly "standardized" scale truck system that uses interchangeable parts from a standard set of tools.

Now, cars that have a large distance between the bolster and the end of the car will continue to use our kinematic coupler system, which has always had the thumbtack hanging down from just below the coupler head!

I hope this helps clear the air on the truth about what we're doing and why you are seeing changes from what has been done in the past.

Thank you,
Mike
P.S. I will try to post some pics later today so you can "see" the improvements and changes that have been made to these new trucks.

Thank you,
Mike Reagan"

Keith:

Thanks for posting.

Wow. Sometimes, we try so hard to convince others of the wisdom of our decisions that we accomplish exactly the opposite result. Unfortunately, that is the case here.

This explanation was extremely weak, totally unconvincing and missed the forest for the trees. It basically repeated and repackaged several times the same two arguments around attempting to accommodate the 2-rail folks and addressing the collector insulator issue, which appears to have been a very minor one. There was also a factual error in that the Ultra Line Weaver trucks and couplers were excellent and IMO should have been used for the LionScale cars. It's also strange that Lionel bought the Weaver tooling, and then decided not to use it. But irrespective of what Lionel ultimately decided to do with its LionScale line, which BTW appears to have essentially disappeared, there was no need to change the trucks and couplers on Lionel's scale line.

Most importantly, the explanation failed to recognize, much less address, the fact that Lionel was making a decision that disenfranchised the vast majority of Lionel's customer base.

Pat 

A truly excellent post Irish.

one good thing in the mike reagan exsplanation which is key here is the interchangeable parts from the tooling sets. so this should mean this whole coupler/truck issue can be cleared up very easily IMO. Since the actual nuckle which mates to the next car is the issue with this new truck design problem not the truck itself. this can be solved very quickly you would think if ryan and dave are looking into this.

let me exsplain. the actual knuckle is held on by a small srew see photo below. so if I were engineering I would get as many different brands of trucks as I could that have been made by others and including my own truck models and go about designing a knuckle that mates with all the other brands out there. by mate I mean works and plays together. closes both couplers very easily with little force and works every time.

this is not rocket science here. just cad drawings and trial and error. altough let me throw another angle in here. since atlas is now making mth cars. it seems atlas and lionel are going to be the two main manufacturers of rolling stock in the marketplace. this could possible lead to the two companies getting together to make a coupler standard for three rail.

back in the early 90s and 2000 earas there was stiff competition and each company had very tightly keeped secrets. now with the internet and social media it seems the manufacturers are not as what I would call cut throat as back in the day. they all talk at shows get along great and joke with each other on virtual live events.

now having said that. they will not nor should they be exspected to give away trade secrets. like for example lionel is not going to help mth get there whistle steam effect down like theirs or there audio reproduction as nice or help atlas put fatboys in there new desiels. with that being said somthing that is standard and universal across the board that is key to all who enjoy and run trains and sometimes is taken for granted is the trucks and couplers. so going foward they could get together and possibly use just one diecast tooling model for the knucle itself that works and plays well with every thing out there.

my Kline coupler knucles always were a different shape than all my other brand of cars and never played well with others. so maybe if just the shape of the knucle itself was standardised across all manufacturers. this would possibly solve this issue for good maybe.

lionel could still have there kinimatic couplers and atlas could have what ever new truck design for the mth line they wish. as the knuckles would mate up fine because they are one size and shape from the standardized tooling agreed apon by all manufacturers going forward. this benefits everyone here. manufacturers and toy train buyers. just my thoughts here.

also below are some random photos of knucles from various cars from lionel mth and kline I have. the veiw is from the top to give you a picture veiw about the different shapes of knucles that have been produced over the years. this may help some in understanding my post and rational of thought here. in vewing the various photos one can quickly see the slight differences in the knucle shapes.

Lionel and all the other model train manufactures should do what the real railroads did over 100 years ago, that is standardize the knuckle couplers.

Charlie

@Choo Choo Charlie posted:

Lionel and all the other model train manufactures should do what the real railroads did over 100 years ago, that is standardize the knuckle couplers.

Charlie

I thought they did. The standard is: does it couple with my postwar Lionel rolling stock, like a 6464 boxcar for example. That’s what I expect and it is what I thought that manufactures like modern Lionel, K-Line and MTH adhered to.

@Choo Choo Charlie posted:

Lionel and all the other model train manufactures should do what the real railroads did over 100 years ago, that is standardize the knuckle couplers.

Charlie

Unfortunately I think the answer is “Kadee”.

This coupler replacement solved my Problem at least for the Friendship PS-1.  I can't seem to find anymore of the same part number, but there are others that will likely do the job.  The Lionel part number is 6-12843.  These coupler/trucks are very heavy (in a good way) and come with screws which are slightly longer than the crappy couplers due to the screw hole being much thicker die-cast.  Where the screw goes is the actual part of the truck that is "Sprung" and they are strong springs.  The PS-1 boxcar tracks very smoothly and the coupler action is perfect.

Photo #1 - unboxing the new coupler/trucks

Photo #2 - The underside of the new coupler

Photo #3 - The other side

Photo #4 - A Side shot of the springs

Video #1 - The smooth glide along the track (aided by the truck heft)

Video #2 - The all important coupler mating

Photo # 5 - Side shot of the attached new coupler on the PS-1

EE200, I’m glad the new trucks work better, but there is a 0.0% chance I’d pay to swap my Friendship trucks for thumbtacks. I still think a donor car is the only way to go.

Could you show us a picture close up of where  the truck attaches to the car bolster on the frame? Do these trucks make the car sit higher than the stock ones? I have some cars with these trucks. I may try to see if they will fit on a ps1 box car.

Lionelzxl2012 - Did my best to show the spot where it attaches, but when you take the one off of your current PS-1, the new one goes into the exact same hole.  TO answer your 2nd question, it does indeed cause the car to sit up higher.  I put it next to an NYC PS-1 and you can see it is a few mm higher.  That is because on the new truck, the screw socket is a few mm thicker, hence the supplied longer screw.  It came with a brass sleeve, but I cannot determine the orientation, but I am sure it serves a purpose.  I tighten down the screw until the truck does not move from side to side, then I back it out about 1/4 to a /12 turn and that seems about right.  I also have Lionel part number 6-14078 coming in and I plan to try that one next.  Maybe it won't lift the car up higher.

Thanks,

Mike

@electric_express_200 posted:

TO answer your 2nd question, it does indeed cause the car to sit up higher.  I put it next to an NYC PS-1 and you can see it is a few mm higher.  That is because on the new truck, the screw socket is a few mm thicker, hence the supplied longer screw.  

From the looks of it, I think there is plenty of material there on the top of the bolster that a Dremel tool could fix.

@rplst8 posted:

Unfortunately I think the answer is “Kadee”.

Not for 90%+ of Lionel's customer base...

Pat

@irish rifle posted:

Not for 90%+ of Lionel's customer base...

Pat

My comment was about Lionel and other industry players “standardizing” on the operating knuckle coupler.  I don’t see how that’s possible until Lionel admits to messing these new ones up. Most manufacturers offer the two hole coupler mounting pads.  I think that’s their answer to standardization.

Edit: For the record I think the answer about the overall new design allowing them to do Lionel scale and LionScale (Weaver) cars and 2 or 3 rail is legit.  Why would they continue to want to have twice as many part numbers?  That said, it doesn’t excuse poor execution on the knuckle coupler. Or the lack of springiness.

C'mon Lionel.  For what you are charging today do the right thing.  What makes cars connect?  Couplers and trucks.  Make'em like you used to.  Lionel, you should be embarressed loyal fans are posting this.  Joshua would not be pleased!

thanks for the close up photos. thats just what I figured would be the case. they make the car set up higher. 

please dave olson just redo the knucle portion of the couper to a proper shape to work with all other cars. thats what is needed here. thats problem one. the old truucks with the coupler swinging side to side was great,but the new design can survive with out that feature.

@Lionelzwl2012 posted:

thanks for the close up photos. thats just what I figured would be the case. they make the car set up higher.

please dave olson just redo the knucle portion of the couper to a proper shape to work with all other cars. thats what is needed here. thats problem one. the old truucks with the coupler swinging side to side was great,but the new design can survive with out that feature.

Respectfully but strongly disagree with your last point. The new design clearly cannot survive with non-articulated couplers.

Pat

It's been about 6 weeks since the last post - has there been any response from Lionel to remedy - or at least acknowledge - the problem?

@DavidR posted:

It's been about 6 weeks since the last post - has there been any response from Lionel to remedy - or at least acknowledge - the problem?

Like all the other screw ups, I'm betting Lionel hope this goes away and there will be no fix, just upgraded trucks/couplers on future offerings.

Gary:

I suspect you are correct. But if that's the approach Lionel takes, it will be an additional blunder. This issue is not going to go away unless and until Lionel comes up with an acceptable solution.

Pat

      What gets me with this topic is: 1) How Lionel, the inventor of the knuckle coupler for model trains some 75 years ago, could release this poor design to the market without apparently testing is to see if it is compatible with other knuckle couplers and 2) How Lionel could remain this quiet this long about the problem, as DavidR said.  A #3 could be the cheaply designed truck with the fake springs.

     Who would want to buy ANY Lionel freight cars now for fear they might have these defective trucks/couplers!!!!

John

I posted this some time back. Corporations establish a Mission Statement for the purpose of defining the existence of their business. Mission statements get at the heart of why a company exists, rather than how it exists.

A mission statement describes the Corporate's fundamental purpose. It answers the question, "Why does our business exist?"

And with that, I let you to decide if, in fact, Lionel lives up to theirs:

"Our mission is to develop, manufacture, market and service the best electric toy trains and accessories in the world within a competitive environment.

Lead the toy train industry with innovative engineering, flawless manufacturing and superior customer service. Employ the best people and inspire teamwork and strong communications in an atmosphere of teamwork, trust, openness and innovation. Expose children to the magic of Lionel trains and sprout interest in the toy train hobby. Work closely with our dealer network and share with them some of the decision making processes for future Lionel products.

Keep the magic of the Lionel tradition living for another 100 years."

RAY

Guys,

With six pages of responses, I've sort of lost track as to which cars were impacted by this design change.  Could someone simply post the timeframe this pertains to and the type cars or road names impacted?  Hopefully the list isn't extensive.

Thanks!

@Allegheny posted:

Guys,

With six pages of responses, I've sort of lost track as to which cars were impacted by this design change.  Could someone simply post the timeframe this pertains to and the type cars or road names impacted?  Hopefully the list isn't extensive.

Thanks!

I think that’s part of the problem.  There really isn’t a way to tell which rolling stock will come with which trucks.  Add to that, not all of the new trucks are defective.  I picked up some of the TankTrain cars and the new style trucks they have are fine.

I don't have a complete list but here are the items I know about. 

Milk cars and 2 bay hopper cars from the 2020 vol 1 catalog.

I12 cabooses from the 2019 vol 2 catalog.

The items I listed were made in Vietnam which unfortunately doesn't help much since there is no way of knowing where something is made until after you receive it.

All the Friendship Cars released within the last 6 to 8 months and also made in Vietnam.

RAY

Yeah, we are at 6 pages. I myself thought there was something maybe on Gary's "Milk Car Topic" about Dave Olson testing the milk cars with no issue. At first I thought it was here, but didn't see anything. Heck, maybe I am thinking of something else where someone had chimed in about them testing them back at the office and they didn't come up with the exact issue, but noted something was a bit off. I don't remember but here we are.

If they were going to release a statement on these, everyone should have heard it somewhere by now. I feel that we aren't going to get one. Like I had said when the new catalog had hit, I wasn't ordering any rolling stock, and I haven't other what I had already ordered, and the Metca Milk Car offering. That is it. I have been looking at other things recently that haven't been Lionel, and mainly rolling stock items. I haven't purchased any as yet, but with other stuff I am looking into, I will most likely go that route since either the couplers/trucks will be an issue, or it is something that I cannot find that Lionel has produced before and probably will not produce for a good number of years to come.

That said, what can we do other than preform surgery, send back, self them, or hope they don't detach/crash/explode/implode/or work as they were supposed to magically like Don got lucky with. You got me on that. Whatever news is to come, it is taking it's sweet time and most of us are already too hot on the burner. With that, I am off to bed. I hope that we get some news, but as most of us already said, "nothing yet as it looks like nothing is coming". Good night all.

Don’t buy any scale freight cars unless you have a set of donor trucks from seven or eight years ago. Admittedly, I may have baked in a year or two, but it’s close. The first round of budget cuts brought the thumbtacks. They sucked and were ugly. The next round of budget cuts brought couplers that were allergic to coupling and cars that fancied derailing.  The good stuff came out in the early to mid aughts. Look for those cars.

Well as I'm late to this conversation.

Money talks!!!

I cancelled about 2,500 hundred dollars worth of new trains.

If Lionel doesn't get the message soon.

When they've lost enough profit and their employees are collecting unemployment.

Maybe the NEW OWNERS will fix what needs to be fixed.

I have enough trains to stop purchasing anymore from here on!

Money Talks

B S WALKS