Heck, we have one of the new Polar Express RPO cars that we waited for three years for the correct paint. Finally received the replacement and it won’t stay coupled. That went over big with the grandkids running 4 trains; thank goodness one of them saw it and pushed the red button.
Time for a Congressional Special Investigative Committee for Couplergate.
Alan
How do the new Lionel couplers interact with MTH couplers? Has anyone tested this?
Robert
See my post from 1/24/2021 (page 2 on my computer).
Chris
LVHR
I had not seen this thread before, but having just received new N&W bunk cars, tool car, and kitchen car the title struck me as interesting. Those cars force derailments with some of my other cars (because the couplers don't mate well) on tight S curves, don't couple well to other cars, etc. just as everyone describes. They also derail on traditional O72 switches that don't cause a problem for any of my other rolling stock or locomotives (are the flanges also shallower and/or the center rail pickup rollers don't flex up as far thus picking the car up a bit?). I had not bought new rolling stock (just "new to me" used stuff) for many years, and now I doubt I will buy more because of these trucks.
That said, and I'm sure someone has covered this, but is there a source of the "old" style trucks that one could use to replace the new ones?
May be because of my age , but this thread makes me chuckle. Lionel, has had coupler issues, on and off forever! A new design or " new and improved" brings a new issue! Learn how to fix it or replace it! Or just leave it on the shelf!
For Christmas I received one of the new Lionel Burlington Northern PS-5 gondolas. Put it on my layout and once it crossed my Ross 0-72 turnout, sparks started flying and it shorted my layout. I thought I may have left some metal laying on the rails, so I checked everything, powered the layout back up and same thing on the next trip.
I checked the trucks and didn't see any flashing, or anything that would cause a short. As a test, I swapped them with the older style trucks from one of my other PS-5 gondolas, and no issue with shorting out the layout. I called Lionel but they were off for the holiday, so I sent email to their service department. Still waiting to hear back from them.
It doesn't look like I can easily swap them out for MTH trucks. Are Atlas trucks and easy swap?
Unless they redesign the trucks, I won't be purchasing anymore of their rolling stock.
Ray of sunshine posted one of the best posts I have ever seen!
If Lionel published a mission statement like Ray's, and lived up to it, this 6 page post would not exist now or ever!
I can’t speak for everything that has come out this year but - my buddy just got the New York Central Pacemaker expansion set - I’ve picked up a few assorted freight cars and a B&O I-12 caboose - we’ve been running everything on his Christmas display Layout and everything seems fine
We haven’t had to give couplers or trucks a second thought
@drelo posted:For Christmas I received one of the new Lionel Burlington Northern PS-5 gondolas. Put it on my layout and once it crossed my Ross 0-72 turnout, sparks started flying and it shorted my layout. I thought I may have left some metal laying on the rails, so I checked everything, powered the layout back up and same thing on the next trip.
I checked the trucks and didn't see any flashing, or anything that would cause a short. As a test, I swapped them with the older style trucks from one of my other PS-5 gondolas, and no issue with shorting out the layout. I called Lionel but they were off for the holiday, so I sent email to their service department. Still waiting to hear back from them.
It doesn't look like I can easily swap them out for MTH trucks. Are Atlas trucks and easy swap?
Unless they redesign the trucks, I won't be purchasing anymore of their rolling stock.
Amen, brother. I have lost count of how many times I have posted on the Forum about the inferior Lionel trucks and couplers issue over the past few years, including multiple times in this particular thread. This issue continues to be an albatross around Lionel's neck, and actually became considerably worse fairly recently when Lionel made a bizarre decision to migrate from articulated to fixed couplers. I stopped purchasing Lionel rolling stock a while back and either buy old-new Lionel rolling stock, or MTH or Atlas O rolling stock, both of which have excellent trucks and couplers.
Pat
Maybe "decent trucks" should be one of the things you should mention in the perpetual thread "What would you like to see in the new Lionel catalog?" 😁
Mark in Oregon
@irish rifle posted:This issue continues to be an albatross around Lionel's neck, and actually became considerably worse fairly recently when Lionel made a bizarre decision to migrate from articulated to fixed couplers. I stopped purchasing Lionel rolling stock a while back and either buy old-new Lionel rolling stock, or MTH or Atlas O rolling stock, both of which have excellent trucks and couplers.
While I'm sure we'd like this to be an albatross around Lionel's neck, in truth it doesn't seem to sink in. They continue year after year to build couplers that won't mate with other Lionel (or anything else), and they're still shipping product. Kinda' like the lousy trucks/couplers on Menard's boxcars, at least those are priced commensurate with the quality. 
I don't want to jump on the band wagon and complain about the Lionel trucks/couplers made in Vietnam. But rather wonder why there is no organization for 3 rails that makes recommendations as to standards.
When I was modeling in HO ( 1950's to 2005), I was a member of the NMRA. In the early years, we had dozens of different couplers from all the different manufactures: Manuta hook and loop, PFM had a weird couple from Japan, and then the strange looking coupler that was referred to as the "NMRA" type. None of these connected to each other.
Flanges on wheels were all different as well, some with very large flanges that caused issues on switches.
As a result, there was a lot of non-compatibility with engines and cars between the manufacturers, which made it frustrating for the modeler. Just like it does today in 3 rail.
Over the years, with the help of the NMRA and the support of all the manufactures, "STANDARDS" were established that recommended changes to many of these issues. As a result, todays HO manufacturers follow the "STANDARDS" for couplers, wheel flanges, height of couplers from the rails, just to name a few.
I gather there is and most likely will not be any 'STANDARD" between the various manufacturers for various reasons. Which hurts us as buyers of 3 rails products.
RAY
@gunrunnerjohn posted:While I'm sure we'd like this to be an albatross around Lionel's neck, in truth it doesn't seem to sink in. They continue year after year to build couplers that won't mate with other Lionel (or anything else), and they're still shipping product. Kinda' like the lousy trucks/couplers on Menard's boxcars, at least those are priced commensurate with the quality.
John:
Couldn't agree more with your comment that "it doesn't seem to sink in." Indeed, I would take it a step further and say that it clearly hasn't sunk in. If it had, Lionel would have made the pivot already. That said, and while I don't have any data to back this up, I have to believe this debacle has hurt their sales. Maybe we will see a change in the upcoming catalog, but I seriously doubt it.
Pat
@irish rifle posted:John:
Couldn't agree more with your comment that "it doesn't seem to sink in." Indeed, I would take it a step further and say that it clearly hasn't sunk in. If it had, Lionel would have made the pivot already. That said, and while I don't have any data to back this up, I have to believe this debacle has hurt their sales. Maybe we will see a change in the upcoming catalog, but I seriously doubt it.
Pat
Watch folks tripping over themselves trying to get their pre-orders in after the catalog release Friday. Even before the dealers have the pricing figured out.
As long as people are buying this stuff, bad trucks and couplers,faulty audio boards, neon versions of every paint scheme etc. Theres no reason for Lionel to change. The box is still orange and blue.
I recently did some work on my layout that required everything to come off. I used a railer to put everything back on. There is a night and day difference between railing a string of ten-year-old cars and the new Friendship cars. The old cars just roll down the railer and couple right up to the previous car. The Friendship cars all fail to couple when they impact the previous car. It usually requires lifting a closed coupler onto another closed coupler.
If you have to have something new, locate an old donor car for trucks. Otherwise, just don’t buy anything new until the trucks get fixed.
It isn’t a matter of there not being an industry-wide truck standard for Ogauge. Lionel trucks ARE the Ogauge standard and have been for 100 years. They have historically worked with everything and everything has worked with them. The new trucks and couplers simply aren’t designed and/or built well, are far inferior to their predecessors, and should be avoided.
@RickO posted:As long as people are buying this stuff, bad trucks and couplers,faulty audio boards, neon versions of every paint scheme etc. Theres no reason for Lionel to change. The box is still orange and blue.
Perhaps as true a post as I've seen yet. 👍 Give that man a cigar...or whatever... 🙂
Mark in Oregon
@Ray of sunshine posted:I don't want to jump on the band wagon and complain about the Lionel trucks/couplers made in Vietnam. But rather wonder why there is no organization for 3 rails that makes recommendations as to standards?
RAY
Because the largest portion of 3 rail enthusiasts are people that run their trains once a year around the tree and they do not care about standards. Disclaimer: I am in no way knocking these folks. Due to their limited time in the hobby each year I can't blame them for not caring about things like standards.
@Hudson J1e posted:Because the largest portion of 3 rail enthusiasts are people that run their trains once a year around the tree and they do not care about standards. Disclaimer: I am in no way knocking these folks. Due to their limited time in the hobby each year I can't blame them for not caring about things like standards.
I don't think the majority is the once in a year around the Christmas tree people. They are the minority or maybe at least 40-45%. The thing is this is no quiet matter. We do raise heck, but they believe their product sells itself, which to a degree it does. We continually complain, raise issues, etc., but only a little bit of headway seems to be made right before another setback. We are stuck in this cycle.
The standard for O gauge 3 rail is postwar style couplers. I mean that any coupler design needs to be able to work with and be compatible with Lionel postwar couplers. New couplers can have any number of upgrades and features as long the coupler meets the above.
Also too, a good portion of Christmas tree runners could be starter set folks who are in the cheaper market, we're talking higher end on these.
In flipping back through this thread, I had forgotten there was talk back in March about a fix and replacement parts from Lionel. Given the time that has lapsed, I assume it isn’t happening, right? Anybody ever hear from them?
@Madockawando posted:The standard for O gauge 3 rail is postwar style couplers. I mean that any coupler design needs to be able to work with and be compatible with Lionel postwar couplers. New couplers can have any number of upgrades and features as long the coupler meets the above.
Right: "compatibility" is the key issue here.
If the manufacturer of the "standard" (as you call it) coupler can't make a "new and improved" version that is not compatible with their own previous version, then what was the point of the upgrade in the first place? 🤔
Mark in Oregon
@Rider Sandman posted:In flipping back through this thread, I had forgotten there was talk back in March about a fix and replacement parts from Lionel. Given the time that has lapsed, I assume it isn’t happening, right? Anybody ever hear from them?
I did look back too, but I remember on another topic specifically about the milk cars, that is the Metca offerings were only of a few to be fixed. I don't quite remember what the entire fix was because I think there was something else that was incorrect them besides the couplers being an issue.
Anyone else recall what all was wrong with that select few milk cars? Was it color or undercarriage or something?
@Rider Sandman posted:In flipping back through this thread, I had forgotten there was talk back in March about a fix and replacement parts from Lionel. Given the time that has lapsed, I assume it isn’t happening, right? Anybody ever hear from them?
Parts ETA is April 2022.
Stu
Stu,
Do you mean that Lionel is going to replace the trucks/couplers with corrected ones when the new parts arrive in "April 2022"? No cost to those of us that had purchased cars with this issue? And if so, do you know the procedure to get replacements?
RAY
You know we wouldn’t have a 7 page thread on something as simple as trucks if the lead engineer at L spent more time verifying drawings, dimensions and fit up instead of being the designated class clown making silly Facebook videos. Just a thought.
Newish guy here, but I'm an old guy - 74. Just getting in over the last few months, and starting to buy some rolling stock, used.
I have 7 or 8 Lionel boxcars, one from the 1980s and the rest 1990s. All have the thumbtack coupler.
Question. About what year did Lionel start in with the thumbtack coupler? The two plastic ones I have don't work. They are junk.
How far do I need to go back to get to the original design? Post war, I assume i.e. pre '70?
Any other ideas? Swap to new trucks? Maybe 6-14078 ones?
Bill
@Steims posted:You know we wouldn’t have a 7 page thread on something as simple as trucks if the lead engineer at L spent more time verifying drawings, dimensions and fit up instead of being the designated class clown making silly Facebook videos. Just a thought.
I think part of the issue is there are no longer any "train people" at Lionel. Its mostly "toy making people" with a "green" electronics dept. I say green due to the steady stream of audio board issues in new releases and the ever changing Lionchief system, as though they didn't think of everything the first two times around.
@Ray of sunshine posted:I don't want to jump on the band wagon and complain about the Lionel trucks/couplers made in Vietnam. But rather wonder why there is no organization for 3 rails that makes recommendations as to standards.
When I was modeling in HO ( 1950's to 2005), I was a member of the NMRA. In the early years, we had dozens of different couplers from all the different manufactures: Manuta hook and loop, PFM had a weird couple from Japan, and then the strange looking coupler that was referred to as the "NMRA" type. None of these connected to each other.
Flanges on wheels were all different as well, some with very large flanges that caused issues on switches.
As a result, there was a lot of non-compatibility with engines and cars between the manufacturers, which made it frustrating for the modeler. Just like it does today in 3 rail.
Over the years, with the help of the NMRA and the support of all the manufactures, "STANDARDS" were established that recommended changes to many of these issues. As a result, todays HO manufacturers follow the "STANDARDS" for couplers, wheel flanges, height of couplers from the rails, just to name a few.
I gather there is and most likely will not be any 'STANDARD" between the various manufacturers for various reasons. Which hurts us as buyers of 3 rails products.
RAY
Does anyone know who thought up and decided upon producing the recent thumb tack style plastic truck versus the metal sprung truck with the tab uncoupler it replaced?
@Ray of sunshine posted:Stu,
Do you mean that Lionel is going to replace the trucks/couplers with corrected ones when the new parts arrive in "April 2022"? No cost to those of us that had purchased cars with this issue? And if so, do you know the procedure to get replacements?
RAY
Ray,
If you're referring to the METCA PRR and LIRR Milk Reefers made in 2020, the answer is yes, there will be replacement trucks/couplers (not sure which) available free of charge to those who purchased a PRR/LIRR Milk Reefer from METCA. I'm not saying these parts will be available for Lionel's cataloged cars, as I only deal with the production of club custom runs and have nothing to do with Lionel's core line.
The procedure for METCA customers to get free replacement parts will be announced when the parts are here.
Stu
This is my first experience where I feel "snake bitten". I'm glad it was with a $70 freight car and not a $1000 locomotive. I've yet to get a response from Lionel after more than two weeks. I'm not sure if that is due to holiday volumes or if it is just the norm, but at this point it doesn't matter.
Outside of the issue I've experienced with shorting my layout, the coupler mechanisms are stiff and clunky at best. I do hope that Lionel provides some sort of resolution, but I won't hold my breath. I'm prepared to use this as a learning experience, and let my wallet do the talking moving forward. There is no chance I'll continue to invest in what I deem to be an inferior product.
boy this thread is seven pages deep and just gets better and better
@gunrunnerjohn posted:While I'm sure we'd like this to be an albatross around Lionel's neck, in truth it doesn't seem to sink in. They continue year after year to build couplers that won't mate with other Lionel (or anything else), and they're still shipping product. Kinda' like the lousy trucks/couplers on Menard's boxcars, at least those are priced commensurate with the quality.
@irish rifle posted:That said, and while I don't have any data to back this up, I have to believe this debacle has hurt their sales. Maybe we will see a change in the upcoming catalog, but I seriously doubt it.
While this is anecdotal, I was going to buy the Cambia and Indiana hopper set but avoided it and others because of this issue.
I’m still bummed about the static noise on the Legacy PRR single stripe Baldwin Sharks.
@timetraveller posted:Newish guy here, but I'm an old guy - 74. Just getting in over the last few months, and starting to buy some rolling stock, used.
I have 7 or 8 Lionel boxcars, one from the 1980s and the rest 1990s. All have the thumbtack coupler.
Question. About what year did Lionel start in with the thumbtack coupler? The two plastic ones I have don't work. They are junk.
How far do I need to go back to get to the original design? Post war, I assume i.e. pre '70?
Any other ideas? Swap to new trucks? Maybe 6-14078 ones?
Bill
Sorry Bill, I can't answer these questions, I just know that thumbtack couplers have been around a while. I don't know the solution either other than finding replacement trucks, not sure if those are still offered as I think the last few catalogs haven't listed them. The ones you listed, 6-14078 have thumbtacks on them(at least in the pictures on Lionel's website), I guess they would be better as far as the trucks, but the thumbtack is there.
I don't know if these topics would help any.
Lionel Going Backward with Couplers <--Mike Reagan responded on this topic
As most of us have said before, we just seem to have the same recurring problem, quality. Recently I just had one of the older milk cars in my fleet, give me uncoupling problems. Not sure why this happened, but the dang car which had been coupled to my Canadian National reefer(I believe), decided to jump ship on me. Both cars are the swivel couplers, so that just confused me as to why it decided to uncouple. Maybe because I am running my improved 18009 NYC Mohawk, it can't handle the Pittman power(I doubt that is the issue). Whatever the issue is, I guess I will eventually figure that out.
It just seems that some of the couplers we have seen come and go have their share of flavor, some really dang sour. I do know some of my 1990's(1980's too) era are fairly decent with no real issues other than them being solid, no swivel to them. The main drawback was the nice and shiny thumbtack coupler which has been the issue of nice sparks on some occasion when used with uncoupling devices(like how 18009's tender coupler shorted out and melted that old spring).
Where was the sweet spot that we had with really improved couplers, was it very late 90's into the mid 2000-2010 maybe? I do know that some of this is dependent upon what type of car it is, I've always been suspect of gondolas as they usually were fixed couplers with no swivel(at least the ones I have seen anyway), passenger cars larger had thumbtacks, and a good portion of hoppers and boxcars too. Only seems like there were a bit with hidden tabs for a number of years, switching back and forth. I think one of my cabooses has hidden tabs from the mid to late 80's I want to say(smoking PRR Caboose). The one thing I do know, I am very wary of rolling stock unless it states in the catalog(or I can see it when buying) what type it is. I've stuck with diecast hoppers most recently, being that I am modeling steam era. I don't know.
I’m one of those that converts everything to Kadee’s. I’m in 3RS. I don’t own a lot of Lionel cars. I have always cut up those nice trucks to get rid of the claw coupler. A bit of work but the thought of it never stopped me from making a purchase. The new trucks have an easy to remove coupler and are the best rolling trucks I’ve ever seen. One of the reasons we were told was the easy conversion to Kadee’s and to 2 rail if desired. I did buy a few of the new milk cars. The trucks look like more of a cost savings than anything. They just look cheap compared to the older versions.
Most that convert to Kadee’s or 2 rail are use to doing some work. As long as the mounts are present. You just get use to dealing with the trucks or switching out wheelsets. I wonder how many 2 railers bother buying the Lionel wheel conversion kit at about $20.00. The trucks easily come apart and most have a supply of Intermountain wheelsets to put in them. The new Lionel cars are 80 to $100.00. Add $25.00 onto that for their wheels and Kadee’s. Unless it’s a special car. You wonder how many 2 railers are going this route when Atlas already makes a take it out the box 2 rail version.
@Dave_C posted:Most that convert to Kadee’s or 2 rail are use to doing some work. As long as the mounts are present. You just get use to dealing with the trucks or switching out wheelsets. I wonder how many 2 railers bother buying the Lionel wheel conversion kit at about $20.00. The trucks easily come apart and most have a supply of Intermountain wheelsets to put in them. The new Lionel cars are 80 to $100.00. Add $25.00 onto that for their wheels and Kadee’s. Unless it’s a special car. You wonder how many 2 railers are going this route when Atlas already makes a take it out the box 2 rail version.
Unless its a specialty truck of some kind, a lot of Lionel cars are direct swaps to atlas trucks, which also lower the car. If its something Atlas doesnt make (and maybe the milk car trucks are in this group), then NWSL makes the appropriate axles for probably the same-ish price as the lionel kit, including the long axles for the rotating bearing cap trucks (but the atlas rolling cap trucks also work and the thin sideframe ones look nicer).
@Dave_C posted:I’m one of those that converts everything to Kadee’s. I’m in 3RS. I don’t own a lot of Lionel cars. I have always cut up those nice trucks to get rid of the claw coupler. A bit of work but the thought of it never stopped me from making a purchase. The new trucks have an easy to remove coupler and are the best rolling trucks I’ve ever seen. One of the reasons we were told was the easy conversion to Kadee’s and to 2 rail if desired. I did buy a few of the new milk cars. The trucks look like more of a cost savings than anything. They just look cheap compared to the older versions.
Most that convert to Kadee’s or 2 rail are use to doing some work. As long as the mounts are present. You just get use to dealing with the trucks or switching out wheelsets. I wonder how many 2 railers bother buying the Lionel wheel conversion kit at about $20.00. The trucks easily come apart and most have a supply of Intermountain wheelsets to put in them. The new Lionel cars are 80 to $100.00. Add $25.00 onto that for their wheels and Kadee’s. Unless it’s a special car. You wonder how many 2 railers are going this route when Atlas already makes a take it out the box 2 rail version.
Only issue is on the milk cars there are no mounts for Kadee. I used these.
I'd like to know who designed these faulty trucks/couplers, who tested them and who signed off on the entire fiasco?
@John Knapp posted:I'd like to know who designed these faulty trucks/couplers, who tested them and who signed off on the entire fiasco?
I think that is all answered on the link I posted above with the note "Mike Reagan responds on this topic". Marty E had originally posted that link elsewhere when we had started talking about the couplers. If an answer isn't found there, I don't know.
