Mike just says "we."
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I think that is all answered on the link I posted above with the note "Mike Reagan responds on this topic". Marty E had originally posted that link elsewhere when we had started talking about the couplers. If an answer isn't found there, I don't know.
Are the trucks Mike designed way back in 2016 the trucks we are getting today? I would say no just by scanning all the threads and pics, Mike wasn't around for the new tooling of the Milk cars. Others might have better insight.
This is not directed to anyone in particular, but exploring “who” designed the new trucks is an exercise in speculation and will likely only serve to get this thread nuked. I’m only one opinion, but I don’t believe “who” even matters - just get them fixed.
On a pleasant note, I received my Vision PS-1 MoPac Eagle boxcar. The dummy coupler (remember one is an electro coupler) has a hidden tab and couples very easily to other cars from various vintages. It is also articulated. It still has plastic bolsters and side frames, but it at least functions much better that the Friendship cars. Hopefully, this is a sign of what’s to come.
@Rider Sandman posted:It still has plastic bolsters and side frames, but it at least functions much better that the Friendship cars.
Plastic side frames? Really?
@superwarp1 posted:Are the trucks Mike designed way back in 2016 the trucks we are getting today? I would say no just by scanning all the threads and pics, Mike wasn't around for the new tooling of the Milk cars. Others might have better insight.
Yeah, I don't know. I think what I got out of the conversation was that Lionel was going in that direction but it had not been implemented until after Mike was gone. I believe that is what Marty had indicated somewhere on that topic that had the link.
For what it's worth, here's how Mike Reagan explained the original changes to the truck design in 2016:
"Gentlemen,
Please let me take a moment and explain the change on these couplers, so everyone has the correct information from the "horse's mouth" as it were.
We have engineered a new scale truck which will be integrated on all Lionel scale cars moving forward.
This whole project of reengineering the trucks started with the acquisition of the Weaver tooling. Not being satisfied with the performance of the older Weaver die-cast trucks we needed a truck that would accommodate the new Lionscale cars as well as all existing Lionel scale cars. If you took the time to notice the thumbtack couplers in the images I certainly hope you took the time to notice the 2-rail conversion kits in the back of the catalog. These conversion kits are only applicable to the new scale trucks (the ones with the thumbtack in the images).
This truck uses an ABS bolster and 1 piece cast side frames (with separately applied springs). The level of detail is as good if not better than the existing truck side frames. The reason for the bolster being ABS is two fold;
1.) to prevent to need for a collector insulator when using a sprung collector on freight trucks (similar to the type we currently use on locomotives, to ensure a positive 100% of the time contact with the center rail)
2.) to allow for easy conversion to using scale couplers on 3-rail equipment and for converting to 2-rail. Yes, you read that correctly, 2-rail. (Lionel has never before offered a 2-rail conversion kit, so this is somewhat notable in the big scheme of things!)
The new scale truck design has 5 different length die-cast coupler armatures (same as our previous scale trucks had) which slide over a shoulder on the center of the bolster and also have a screw to firmly mount the coupler armature to the bolster. This design makes it very easy to remove the 3-rail coupler from the truck to mount a scale coupler to the car body, for those customers who wish to take that route.
The bolster also accommodates all the various accessories we have used on trucks over the last 20 years; hall effect sensors, axle straps, collectors, LED PCB's (for hot box accessory cars). The coupler armartures accommodate mechanical couplers as well as coil couplers.
There are a total of 4 bolsters to be used with these side frames
Lionel 3-rail cars
Lionel 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversin kit)
Lionscale 3-rail cars
Lionscale 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversion kit)
Why so many bolsters? Because on Lionel scale cars the bolster is very close to the floor on the cars. On the Lionscale cars the bolster is a good distance away from the floor, so a one size fits all approach would simply not work. Then add in the 2-rail conversion and the ride height of the car needed to be lower than the ride height of 3-rail cars, hence we designed 4 different bolsters. Each of the 2-rail conversion kits; 50T and 70T will include 2 Lionel and 2 Lionscale 2-rail bolsters, so 1 kit will work with either product. Each 2-rail conversion kit includes 4 NMRA compliant 2-rail wheel and axle sets, the bolsters mentioned above, 4 axle straps (with 8 screws, as they are small and you will likely lose some installing the straps). There are 2 different kits as one has tapered axles for 50T journal box style side frames and the other has blunt end axles for 70T rotating bearing cap side frames (to keep the rotating bearing cap feature) (the 70T kit also includes some extra bearing caps in black). The end result is an NMRA compliant 2-rail truck that offers electrical pickup from all 8 wheels!
The design has been in the works for over 8 months and has been thoroughly tested on just about every 3-rail track system known to man as well as the 2-rail trucks (with electrical pickups). The design is solid and allows us to finally have a truly "standardized" scale truck system that uses interchangeable parts from a standard set of tools.
Now, cars that have a large distance between the bolster and the end of the car will continue to use our kinematic coupler system, which has always had the thumbtack hanging down from just below the coupler head!
I hope this helps clear the air on the truth about what we're doing and why you are seeing changes from what has been done in the past.
Thank you,
Mike
P.S. I will try to post some pics later today so you can "see" the improvements and changes that have been made to these new trucks.
Thank you,
Mike Reagan"
Ironically, Mike resigned from Lionel in November of 2016. Hmmmm.
Does it really matter he says she says?
What matters is has the company
1. Recognized there is an issue with certain trucks currently in production?
2. If so, are there any plans to rectify the issue?
3. If so, when will the plans to rectify be implemented?
4. If so, how long after implementation will the general consumer see the changes?
5. After the consumer see's the new trucks, do they solve the old problem without causing any new ones?
Back on page 7 of this "little" thread, Stu Rankin said the following about replacement couplers from Lionel:
@Rider Sandman posted:In flipping back through this thread, I had forgotten there was talk back in March about a fix and replacement parts from Lionel. Given the time that has lapsed, I assume it isn’t happening, right? Anybody ever hear from them?
Parts ETA is April 2022.
Stu
@Keith L posted:For what it's worth, here's how Mike Reagan explained the original changes to the truck design in 2016:
"Gentlemen,
Please let me take a moment and explain the change on these couplers, so everyone has the correct information from the "horse's mouth" as it were.
We have engineered a new scale truck which will be integrated on all Lionel scale cars moving forward.
This whole project of reengineering the trucks started with the acquisition of the Weaver tooling. Not being satisfied with the performance of the older Weaver die-cast trucks we needed a truck that would accommodate the new Lionscale cars as well as all existing Lionel scale cars. If you took the time to notice the thumbtack couplers in the images I certainly hope you took the time to notice the 2-rail conversion kits in the back of the catalog. These conversion kits are only applicable to the new scale trucks (the ones with the thumbtack in the images).
This truck uses an ABS bolster and 1 piece cast side frames (with separately applied springs). The level of detail is as good if not better than the existing truck side frames. The reason for the bolster being ABS is two fold;
1.) to prevent to need for a collector insulator when using a sprung collector on freight trucks (similar to the type we currently use on locomotives, to ensure a positive 100% of the time contact with the center rail)
2.) to allow for easy conversion to using scale couplers on 3-rail equipment and for converting to 2-rail. Yes, you read that correctly, 2-rail. (Lionel has never before offered a 2-rail conversion kit, so this is somewhat notable in the big scheme of things!)
The new scale truck design has 5 different length die-cast coupler armatures (same as our previous scale trucks had) which slide over a shoulder on the center of the bolster and also have a screw to firmly mount the coupler armature to the bolster. This design makes it very easy to remove the 3-rail coupler from the truck to mount a scale coupler to the car body, for those customers who wish to take that route.
The bolster also accommodates all the various accessories we have used on trucks over the last 20 years; hall effect sensors, axle straps, collectors, LED PCB's (for hot box accessory cars). The coupler armartures accommodate mechanical couplers as well as coil couplers.
There are a total of 4 bolsters to be used with these side frames
Lionel 3-rail cars
Lionel 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversin kit)
Lionscale 3-rail cars
Lionscale 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversion kit)Why so many bolsters? Because on Lionel scale cars the bolster is very close to the floor on the cars. On the Lionscale cars the bolster is a good distance away from the floor, so a one size fits all approach would simply not work. Then add in the 2-rail conversion and the ride height of the car needed to be lower than the ride height of 3-rail cars, hence we designed 4 different bolsters. Each of the 2-rail conversion kits; 50T and 70T will include 2 Lionel and 2 Lionscale 2-rail bolsters, so 1 kit will work with either product. Each 2-rail conversion kit includes 4 NMRA compliant 2-rail wheel and axle sets, the bolsters mentioned above, 4 axle straps (with 8 screws, as they are small and you will likely lose some installing the straps). There are 2 different kits as one has tapered axles for 50T journal box style side frames and the other has blunt end axles for 70T rotating bearing cap side frames (to keep the rotating bearing cap feature) (the 70T kit also includes some extra bearing caps in black). The end result is an NMRA compliant 2-rail truck that offers electrical pickup from all 8 wheels!
The design has been in the works for over 8 months and has been thoroughly tested on just about every 3-rail track system known to man as well as the 2-rail trucks (with electrical pickups). The design is solid and allows us to finally have a truly "standardized" scale truck system that uses interchangeable parts from a standard set of tools.
Now, cars that have a large distance between the bolster and the end of the car will continue to use our kinematic coupler system, which has always had the thumbtack hanging down from just below the coupler head!
I hope this helps clear the air on the truth about what we're doing and why you are seeing changes from what has been done in the past.
Thank you,
Mike
P.S. I will try to post some pics later today so you can "see" the improvements and changes that have been made to these new trucks.Thank you,
Mike Reagan"
LOL! With all due deference to Mike, who is a real gentleman, I eviscerated this explanation once before in this thread. I am not going to do so again.
Pat
@RickO posted:I think part of the issue is there are no longer any "train people" at Lionel. Its mostly "toy making people" with a "green" electronics dept. I say green due to the steady stream of audio board issues in new releases and the ever changing Lionchief system, as though they didn't think of everything the first two times around.
Rick:
Excellent comment.
John
@Rider Sandman posted:This is not directed to anyone in particular, but exploring “who” designed the new trucks is an exercise in speculation and will likely only serve to get this thread nuked. I’m only one opinion, but I don’t believe “who” even matters - just get them fixed.
On a pleasant note, I received my Vision PS-1 MoPac Eagle boxcar. The dummy coupler (remember one is an electro coupler) has a hidden tab and couples very easily to other cars from various vintages. It is also articulated. It still has plastic bolsters and side frames, but it at least functions much better that the Friendship cars. Hopefully, this is a sign of what’s to come.
That you for your comment, Rick. On the strength of your comment and recommendation, I just ordered on of the Vision PS-1 cars. This is the first "new" Lionel car I've ordered since the milk car fiasco. Maybe Lionel will start equipping their rolling stock with these new trucks.
@Rider Sandman posted:On a pleasant note, I received my Vision PS-1 MoPac Eagle boxcar. The dummy coupler (remember one is an electro coupler) has a hidden tab and couples very easily to other cars from various vintages. It is also articulated. It still has plastic bolsters and side frames, but it at least functions much better that the Friendship cars. Hopefully, this is a sign of what’s to come.
Pictures?
@Rider Sandman posted:Here’s a pic from Mr. Muffins (where I got mine and he’s a better photographer).
Thanks. Was looking for images of these new trucks you described. And does the remote coupler stick way out?
Ahh, got it. I’ll post some pics tomorrow.
For what it's worth, I just got the NYC Pacemaker Freight set in from pre-order. I went back through a few pages of this thread and didn't see anything mentioned about this set specifically (my apologies if it was already discussed), so I thought I'd mention it here.
I pre-ordered the set last year before I was aware of the truck issues, so I was a little worried about what I would find when I opened the box. Good news is that upon checking the trucks, they do have articulation and the hidden uncoupling tabs. Tested coupling them with a few different freight cars - easily coupled to an old die-cast K-Line gondola. Required a little more push to connect to an MTH boxcar. Had some trouble coupling to a die-cast Atlas hopper but discovered the couplers on those are already very stiff, so probably not a great test for those.
Put the MTH and Pacemaker boxcar on an 036 031 curve and hand-pushed them around, the Pacemaker car is able to stay on the track.
Without actually running them behind a loco, I think Lionel might have gotten these right 
again, apologies if this consensus was already reached, but wanted to share just in case.
@0-Gauge CJ posted:Had some trouble coupling to a die-cast Atlas hopper but discovered the couplers on those are already very stiff, so probably not a great test for those.
Mine are the same way.
It's great to hear these trucks are good though! Hopefully this is the end of that.
@Rider Sandman posted:Ahh, got it. I’ll post some pics tomorrow.
Thanks
OLD NEWS THREAD
In all fairness to Lionel, the trucks have been re-designed on both, the old Std. O and O cars.
It’s unfortunate that many of us had to endure the problematic transition truck design on a few cars.
The newest O coupler has a square bump out as shown and the newer cars act much better.
Perhaps one should update the thread title as well? Let’s move on now.
Attachments
Images (2)
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I'm not seeing what the big fuss is about. FWIW, the new UP "flat wheel" sound boxcar I just picked up has diecast trucks, hidden uncouplers that are removable, and the Kadee mounting blocks. The couplers seem to work well, they couple very easily, and don't come open, at least in a 20 minute test run with a pair of track cleaning cars behind them to provide a drawbar load. At least this truck design, to my way of thinking, isn't really all that bad.
I think the buzz about spring loading of the trucks on rolling stock is a lot of ado about nothing. The springs don't do a think unless you put about three pounds of lead in the cars, they're just cosmetic. As far as the fixed coupler, that hasn't been an issue with the vast majority of rolling stock I own that has fixed couplers, exactly what is the big deal with those?
As always something to complain about. Fixed couplers have been around for years with no issues at all. The springs as you said for looks alone, and BTW I had one where the springs on one side came out. Know idea were they went but the car now lilted....great. We need to remember what we say in G scale " if it looks good at 4 feet than it is good". Kids would have no memory of the other trucks so that is just talk as well, if it works it works....they are just toys.
@0-Gauge CJ posted:For what it's worth, I just got the NYC Pacemaker Freight set in from pre-order. I went back through a few pages of this thread and didn't see anything mentioned about this set specifically (my apologies if it was already discussed), so I thought I'd mention it here.
I pre-ordered the set last year before I was aware of the truck issues, so I was a little worried about what I would find when I opened the box. Good news is that upon checking the trucks, they do have articulation and the hidden uncoupling tabs. Tested coupling them with a few different freight cars - easily coupled to an old die-cast K-Line gondola. Required a little more push to connect to an MTH boxcar. Had some trouble coupling to a die-cast Atlas hopper but discovered the couplers on those are already very stiff, so probably not a great test for those.
Put the MTH and Pacemaker boxcar on an 036 031 curve and hand-pushed them around, the Pacemaker car is able to stay on the track.
Without actually running them behind a loco, I think Lionel might have gotten these right
Well, that's some excellent news. Thanks for posting.
Pat
@DavidR posted:That you for your comment, Rick. On the strength of your comment and recommendation, I just ordered on of the Vision PS-1 cars. This is the first "new" Lionel car I've ordered since the milk car fiasco. Maybe Lionel will start equipping their rolling stock with these new trucks.
I just received the Vision PS-1 car and the new trucks/couplers are great. I was able to couple easily to anything on my layout, and the articulation is great. Once again, I hope Lionel decides to incorporate these on all of their rolling stock moving forward. It would also be great if they would offer these as replacements for the non-functional trucks for the milk cares and plug door refrigerator cars.
@Keith L posted:Back on page 7 of this "little" thread, Stu Rankin said the following about replacement couplers from Lionel:
Parts ETA is April 2022.
Stu
I bought a three car set of the "pumpkin orange" Milwaukee road express milk cars.
How do I go about getting on some sort of a list for replacement couplers?
@SIRT posted:OLD NEWS THREAD
In all fairness to Lionel, the trucks have been re-designed on both, the old Std. O and O cars.
It’s unfortunate that many of us had to endure the problematic transition truck design on a few cars.
The newest O coupler has a square bump out as shown and the newer cars act much better.
Perhaps one should update the thread title as well? Let’s move on now.
"on a few cars"? When this topic was started it was Lionel's poor new truck design, and that has not changed. These trucks are worthless, and I have several cars sitting here with these trucks that are also worthless. The issue of this topic is to continue to press Lionel to fix their screwup. If the word new in the topic helps keep this topic alive, then I want to see it stay in.
I'd like to know when we will getting a replacement, and like Roy, how do you get on the list for replacements? I don't want to wind up with another defective product like MTH's PRR P5a Boxcar shell that will not be replaced because I "did not get on list" soon enough.
@RoyBoy posted:I bought a three car set of the "pumpkin orange" Milwaukee road express milk cars.
How do I go about getting on some sort of a list for replacement couplers?
As far as I know, you can't. There's no list to get on. Well, I guess the best way is to keep in touch with whomever you bought those cars from. They should notify you when parts are available.
Stu
@NOT LionelLLC posted:As far as I know, you can't. There's no list to get on. Well, I guess the best way is to keep in touch with whomever you bought those cars from. They should notify you when parts are available.
Stu
I will be holding my breath. 
Guys,
Just for clarification on this issue.
Is there a consensus that the newer couplers with the "bump" on the front are OK?
Thanks,
Mannyrock
The two cars I have purchased recently have the "bump" coupler and they work great with my older equipment. They are articulated, which surly helps with my O-36 curves and turn outs. I would have hoped Lionel would offer replacements for the cars I purchased with the poor Vietnamese couplers, or at least offer them at a reasonable price.
@Rider Sandman posted:This is not directed to anyone in particular, but exploring “who” designed the new trucks is an exercise in speculation and will likely only serve to get this thread nuked. I’m only one opinion, but I don’t believe “who” even matters - just get them fixed.
On a pleasant note, I received my Vision PS-1 MoPac Eagle boxcar. The dummy coupler (remember one is an electro coupler) has a hidden tab and couples very easily to other cars from various vintages. It is also articulated. It still has plastic bolsters and side frames, but it at least functions much better that the Friendship cars. Hopefully, this is a sign of what’s to come.
Rider:
And I posted it only as an open end question. I wasn't looking for actual names, titles, etc. To come up with such poorly designed trucks/couplers could not have been the result of one lone engineer having a bad day. The design of a new truck/coupler had to come from a committee or work group. So why the problems weren't discovered by SOMEONE within that committee or work group before they went into production is totally baffling.
Now it sounds like things are finally getting better and so that is good news!
John
What has happened with this, if anything? I still have three cars with the bad couplers, but have not heard anything from Lionel about replacements.
I modified the couplers on one of my cars so it runs on my layout. Running it on the club layout, however, caused the car to derail and take another car off the track with it.
Part of the coupling issue to other types of couplers such as the good old lionel hidden tab design they did away with and some atlas and mth couplers is the inside curvature of the nuckle on this new design. It some times does not allow the other coupler to close properly leading to a false couple. This new design when used with the same car with the same coupler design works extremely well. Its when coupling to different couplers is the issue. This is true of the hidden or thumtack versions.
The little part inside the nuckle that makes the nuckle close is not going back in all the way to properly close the coupler. This is real apparent when hooking to the old hidden tab design couplers that when light oil or graphite was applied to reduce friction of the moving parts worked so smooth. If the shape of the nuckle more closely matched all other nuckles I think this would solve the issue altogether.
Whether lionel would retool this part is suspect. They should as it would sell more cars and thus make a more profitable sales line for these cars. Some have stated here they stoped buying lionel cars because of the new truck design.
Just saw the bump coupler. While I do not have any of these. Maybe the bump helps with the other car closing properly. Would love to get a car with one and test this theory out. My previous post was in regards to the last design.
@Lionelzwl2012 posted:.... Some have stated here they stopped buying lionel cars because of the new truck design.
I have stopped buying new Lionel freight specifically because of this. I have the Friendship Train cars and the trucks are terrible. Need to do a forum search to see if anyone has found a good replacement truck.
Is there a list of specific Lionel rolling stock to avoid, or time frame of production to avoid?
@Mark V. Spadaro posted:Is there a list of specific Lionel rolling stock to avoid, or time frame of production to avoid?
Mark:
Yes - the challenges with the Lionel trucks and couplers commenced with the freight cars produced from the 2017 catalog. Without rehashing the entire history, which you can review in this and other OGR topics, there were many reasons provided by current and former Lionel employees for making the changes to the trucks and couplers, which diminished both the quality and appearance of them, but none of them made a lot of sense. In fairness, Lionel has made some improvements to the trucks and couplers in the last couple of years, such as getting rid of the unacceptable thumb-tack couplers, but they are still not as good as they were pre-2017.
Pat
Any word on whether or not Lionel is going to replace the worthless 2016-19 trucks on my Friendship Train cars and other cars from that period? I would consider buying new trucks if I knew they would fit just so I can run these cars in my train.
Ron,
Good luck. Even thought some time back, someone said that Lionel would make good, I don't see that happening as it's been several years now. I was all set to buy the complete set of cars, was glad I bought only one first. At that point, I gave up on buying any more.
RAY
Yes.
I bought three of those dumb pumpkin colored Milwaukee Road milk cars. Even after modifying the coupler on one car, it still flips the following car off the track. And this is on wide radius Gargraves curves on the club layout.
There's always hope, I suppose.
@Ray of sunshine posted:Ron,
Good luck. Even thought some time back, someone said that Lionel would make good, I don't see that happening as it's been several years now. I was all set to buy the complete set of cars, was glad I bought only one first. At that point, I gave up on buying any more.
RAY
Unfortunately, I have all five. I agree the likelihood of Lionel making good is nil, but one can hope.
At this point I need recommendations for an acceptable replacement truck. I sold off the cars that I don't need/want, so I really don't have any donors.
