Why can't I run Lionel new both powered units with MTH Z-4000. Cab lights blink & diesels don't move. Thanks, Mike
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Is there a switch underneath to choose running mode? What does the manual for the engines say about running in conventional mode?
Hi, manual just states move throttle of standard conventional transformer to run desired speed as I do with my other Lionel SINGLE POWERED AA LEGACY DIESEL CONSISTS . I think problem is having BOTH AAs POWERED . Had this problem once before & returned to dealer as no one seems to know why the problem exists & offers no solutions.
There is a switch for run or program. In conventional mode it is in run.
Same tired old request, what is the EXACT Lionel product number for the set in question? We can guess all day, but it would be much easier if we knew exactly what we were dealing with.
Lionel 2033260 is AA in question.
Sure isn't anything in the manual that would suggest they won't run properly in conventional. Did you try running them individually? Maybe one is bad and is stalling the other one. Have you tried them in command?
do you have a TMCC or Legacy Command base hooked up? If so, make sure it's turned OFF. Otherwise when you power up the throttle, your locos will just sit there and look at you waiting for a command.
Manual & all descriptions state they will run in conventional mode with standard transformer. I don't have any command devices if that is what you mean. I had the same performance with the Lionel C.P. FA-2 Legacy AA (both powered) & ended up sending them back for a refund. I attempted to contact Lionel numerous times with emails & phone calls but they never responded.
Diesel.
Did you check if the run/program switch on both A units are set on Run? Other than that I have not ran any TMCC/Legacy engines in conventional so I have no other advice except............why the heck are you running these in conventional? They are Bluetooth equipped so what I would do is download the Lionchief App and run them with either your smart phone or smart pad. You do not need a Legacy base to run in Bluetooth. Good luck with your engines
JohnB
Thanks John, I don't have a smart phone or smart pad. I have a flip phone & do not text. I'm just a conventional guy. Mike
Do you have them back to back or elephant style?
Back to Back.
It seems odd that you evidently have experienced this with another AA unit, a CP FA if I read your post correctly. Hopefully you will find a solution as this is most unusual to happen a second time.
Diesel,
Please read this manual to see where the run/Program switch is on each unit. https://www.lionelsupport.com/...0250F7F9AABUnits.pdf
Next, I just realized your engines are exhibiting normal conventional behavior for the first time you raise power. I.e. they start up in neutral. Have you tried raising the throttle to "turn on the engine" then lower it right away, then raise it again?
In conventional, these cycle thru N-Forward-N-Reverse-N, like the old E-Units. (they also mention this in the manual)
Just want to make sure you exhaust all possibilities.
Have you tried putting one of them only on the track and running as John mentioned above?
If running back to back, is each unit set to run the proper direction? The trailing unit needs to be in Reverse (reference the nose). If not, they may be pulling at each other.
Diesel,
Try placing both engines on the track back to back but do not couple the engines. Separate the engines about 4 inches. Instead of using the direction button on the Z4000 use the throttle to decrease voltage to zero then increase the power. If the engines are not moving try increasing the power go up to 18 volts if needed but don’t decrease the throttle to zero volts. What happens? Do you have a way of taking a video?
Sometimes the direction buttons on transformers do not work as they should so doing this would eliminate that as a cause of the problem. Are you running any other TMCC or Legacy engines on your layout? Do they work properly using the direction buttons?
JohnB
@diesel posted:Manual & all descriptions state they will run in conventional mode with standard transformer. I don't have any command devices if that is what you mean. I had the same performance with the Lionel C.P. FA-2 Legacy AA (both powered) & ended up sending them back for a refund. I attempted to contact Lionel numerous times with emails & phone calls but they never responded.
As asked, do they run individually spaced 4" or 6" apart?
What happens if you place one unit on the track along with your single powered A-A pair?
There run individually, I can't imagine why the first test isn't just running them by themselves to see how they behave. When you're debugging things, the best process is to divide and conquer. Eliminate one possibility at a time.
Shouldn't have to do that, they're setup to run tail-to-tail. Put only one on the tracks and run it, if it's the trailing unit, it should start up backwards. It's not just one wire to reverse an engine direction, you have to change the lighting and the motors. For coupler operation, you also have to change the coupler wiring.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Shouldn't have to do that, they're setup to run tail-to-tail. Put only one on the tracks and run it, if it's the trailing unit, it should start up backwards. It's not just one wire to reverse an engine direction, you have to change the lighting and the motors. For coupler operation, you also have to change the coupler wiring.
Ahhh, my bad. I thought this was two separate A units. Not a set. I have a PRR AA set that was one powered and one dummy which I took the guts from a damaged B unit and powered. I ran into the reverse motor and coupler issue when i did that.
I would like to thank all of you who replied with a possible remedy to this problem. Unfortunately there was no solution with all the testing. I paid $800.00 for the units & expect them to run & not require rewiring on my part or other electrical surgeries! So they are on their way back to the dealer for a refund or exchange. For your information I have repeatedly attempted numerous emails & phone calls to Lionel but all have gone unanswered. Thanks to all of you again! Mike
This was your comment earlier: Had this problem once before & returned to dealer as no one seems to know why the problem exists & offers no solutions.
With this being a potential second return of new engines something tells me it's not the engines. You don't have a hobby shop near that might be able to shed some light on the situation?
@diesel posted:I would like to thank all of you who replied with a possible remedy to this problem. Unfortunately there was no solution with all the testing. I paid $800.00 for the units & expect them to run & not require rewiring on my part or other electrical surgeries! So they are on their way back to the dealer for a refund or exchange. For your information I have repeatedly attempted numerous emails & phone calls to Lionel but all have gone unanswered. Thanks to all of you again! Mike
Did you even try some of the things we suggested? I.e. put on on the track by itself and see if it runs? Then put the other on the track and see if it runs?
Then if so, set them both on the track, uncoupled and see if they run? Did you read the prt of the manual that said lashups/consists in TMCC/Legacy Mode only?
If they do run separately and you run them back to back, have you ensured one runs in reverse, and one runs forward?
Have you cycled the throttle as we suggested? Up, down, back up. Remember, these locos start up in Neutral. YOu have to lower power then raise it right back up to get them moving.
Can you confirm you Z4000 transformer is actually going all the way to ZERO? It is possible there's just enough voltage going to the track even with the handle down that your loco is staying in neutral.
Lastly, do you have other loco sets where both are powered, and do they work?
Transformer issue:
Hi, tried all of the above & nothing solved the problem, Running my layout for over 20 years with Lionel, MTH, Atlas,3rd Rail , Bachmann etc. MTH Z- 4000 from the start & never this problem. This is the second BOTH POWERED AA Legacy diesel units from Lionel to react this way. I run a few Lionel Legacy consists having a powered A,dummy B & dummy A & no problems whatsoever. By the way thank you for the video, very interesting. I am steering clear from ANY BOTH POWERED LEGACY UNITS FROM LIONEL IN THE FUTURE. THANKS AGAIN .
Diesel,
Please do not take the following as a being critical of you or a personal attack however a lot of forum members have suggested solutions and ask for specific details regarding your AA set. You have not provided any results for us too further analyze your issue. All you have said is I have tried everything and nothing works and I am returning the set back to your Lionel dealer and Lionel does not answer the phone or emails. What happened when you....
1. Ran each A unit separately, did one start in reverse and one in forward?
2. Did you run the engines together but separated by a few inches? What happened? I understand you do not have a smart phone but you must know someone who does. Can they supply a video.
3. Did you try a different transformer? A Z4000 is a dependable piece but they do wear out and have issues. My club has one that has been in a repair shop for several years due to lack of parts from MTH.
A lot of the forum members are interested and this information can help us either with problems we have encountered or give recommendations to others when they have problems.
In defense of Lionel not answering the phone or emails all I can say is my experience is they are quite responsive. There is a pandemic going on which maybe causing them some issues answering but it is also their busy season. You can leave a call back phone number or try calling several times. I always have gotten help from them on service issues or parts problem without too much effort.
Hope you don’t take this wrong but a lot of us would like to know details of your efforts with these engines. I have a powered/dummy E8 set that I would love to get a powered second engine for and who be interested in swapping my unpowered chassis for if anyone is interested.
Good luck with this purchase or future purchases.
JohnB
To add to what @JohnB says:
We truly want to help. This is such an oddball thing, as you can tell from the replies, that we're just asking the specific questions to get to the bottom of it: for you and others who may encounter it.
I am fully certain you know how to run your trains. As John said, this is not intended as being critical of you whatsoever.
If there is anyway you can answer John's questions above specifically, one of us may notice something and have that "a-ha" moment.
I've been running trains since the Renaissance, (i'm old) and running command control trains by Lionel and MTH since the very first TMCC hit the market mid to late 1990's, as have others here.
The reason we are asking so many detailed questions is because, at least for me, I have never encountered this issue.
Please let us help you.
Each unit was put on track separately & there was no movement except cab lights blinking. When both coupled together only cab lights blinked with NO MOVEMENT. When both were on track spaced apart cab lights only blinked with No movement. Same results with Lionel ZW transformer. I hope this sheds some light on this situation. Once again thanks for your assistance.Mike
Mike,
Are you using the direction button or powering the throttle up and down to get the engines into forward?
JohnB
another thought: try this:
On one of the units, open the rear cover. Turn OFF the Bluetooth switch. Then place the Run/Prgrm switch in Prgm. In conventional mode this locks your loco in Forward, Reverse, or Neutral. (it's how you get the trialing powered unit to go "backwards" in a consist.
I used the directional button & throttle up & down with no movement. The bluetooth switch was never in the on position. In case anyone forgot the units were sent back to the dealer. Thanks !
