Converting Double Wound Field Motors to use 3 position E units

The two fields are wound in different directions.  Energize one field coil and the motor goes one way.  Energize the other field coil the motor goes the other way.  To change to a three position e unit you just one of the coils, it does not matter which one.   Disconnect the other coil lead and tape it off.  Do not try to run the coils in series.  The two fields will cancel each other out and the motor will just sit there and hum until it burns out.  

Instructions from the Lionel service manual, courtesy of Olsens ( bottom of the page)

E-units (page 3)

I get what you are saying, but here’s my thought on that. Motor fields care about the physical layout of the wire on the field core, i.e. whether the wires are wound clockwise or counter-clockwise. They also care about the direction of current flow through that wire. So if I have two wires wrapped around the field core, one wound clockwise, the other counter-clockwise, which appears to be how Lionel did it, all I have to do is reverse the wiring to only one of the coils, and now they are both generating magnetic fields in the same direction. Fortunately that can be done on the double coil fields because all four coil leads present themselves externally, i.e. none of the leads are grounded internally.

Here is Lionel’s diagram of the wiring for a 2 position e-unit – direction is changed by grounding one coil winding or the other:  

I maintain that if you change the wiring as I have shown below, to wire the coils in series and reverse the hookup to only one of the coils, then they will work together.

Alternatively, the two coils could be wired in parallel. Not sure about this option because that would cut the resistance (impedance) in half, and the current draw might get too high, potentially damaging the e-unit contact fingers.

C W Burfle posted:

Instructions from the Lionel service manual, courtesy of Olsens ( bottom of the page)

E-units (page 3)

Wow C W, I wish I had seen that before I tried to redesign the wheel !!! They aren't quite the same though. Lionel shows how to convert using only one of the two coils, What I am trying to do is use both coils to increase the magnetic strength and hopefully generate a little more pulling power.

What I am trying to do is use both coils to increase the magnetic strength and hopefully generate a little more pulling power.

As David wrote, don't do it.
One has to assume that Lionel matched the field and armature. If you alter the characteristics of the field, they won't match any longer.

If you want to try it, this should work.

1) mark the two individual leads.
2) separate the two leads that are twisted together - you now have four leads
3) connect one marked lead to one unmarked lead.
4) connect the loose marked lead to the center terminal on the brush plate.
5) connect the loose unmarked lead to ground

Steps 4 and five can be reversed, it does not matter which lead goes to ground or the center terminal.

Again, I don't think doing this is a good idea, so I have not tried it.
If you try this hookup, please let us know the results.

C W Burfle posted:

What I am trying to do is use both coils to increase the magnetic strength and hopefully generate a little more pulling power.

As David wrote, don't do it.
One has to assume that Lionel matched the field and armature. If you alter the characteristics of the field, they won't match any longer.

If you want to try it, this should work.

1) mark the two individual leads.
2) separate the two leads that are twisted together - you now have four leads
3) connect one marked lead to one unmarked lead.
4) connect the loose marked lead to the center terminal on the brush plate.
5) connect the loose unmarked lead to ground

Steps 4 and five can be reversed, it does not matter which lead goes to ground or the center terminal.

Again, I don't think doing this is a good idea, so I have not tried it.
If you try this hookup, please let us know the results.

 

Thanks CW, that is essentially what I have proposed - your instructions also wire the two coils in series. And your point about Lionel's design is well taken. So the results could be:

1. Outright failure (not likely)

2. Extra Heat and/or current produced in the motor

3. Reduced (fractional) horsepower

4. No measurable change (a strong possibility)

5. Increased (fractional) horsepower (best case scenario)

I will try that and let you know the results, just as soon as I get the broken gears replaced in my Alco

One more result:

On some of those motors, the two connected leads are twisted together rather tightly. There is the possibility of them breaking, which always seems to happen right where they enter the spool. If it is the wire from the outside of the windings, you can steal a turn. If it is the wire from the center, the field has to be rewound.
Of course as long as you still have one good field, you can still do the 3-position e-unit.

Dang, man! Do you have x-ray vision!?!?!? That is exactly the case on my motor, they are twisted VERY tightly, right up against the coil - the green is from the outside and the red goes directly to the center (via the edge of the coil.) So I imagine that the insulating varnish on the wire is still good, at least it looks perfect, so I'll just desolder the end of the twisted pair then gently untwist the loosely twisted area until I get to the tightly twisted area and just stop there - of course rewire as needed.

There will be no rewinding .................. I can't imagine doing that. I visited the Hoover plant a few years back here in North Canton, OH before they moved it all to Mexico - it was fascinating to watch the semi-automated machinery stack the laminate plates together to make the field, then grasp the whole affair and start winding wire around it. There were a few manual handling steps in between, and I can remember thinking what a dinosaur-era operation that was - it was manually intensive and therefore $$$. Kinda knew that wouldn't last even back then. I would give up critical body parts to be able to board Mr. Peabody's Wayback machine and go visit the Lionel factory during its heyday and watch their operations!

Dang, man! Do you have x-ray vision!?!?!?

Many years of experience with repairing Lionel trains. 

So I imagine that the insulating varnish on the wire is still good, at least it looks perfect, so I'll just desolder the end of the twisted pair then gently untwist the loosely twisted area until I get to the tightly twisted area and just stop there - of course rewire as needed.

When you are done untwisting, I suggest doing a continuity test to make certain your assumption about the leads being insulated from each other is correct. Might save you some aggravation later.

The way to increase power out of a series wound motor is to increase the current through the armature windings, not the field.  One way to do this is the shunt the field, that is to put a resistor around it.  The down side of this is that increasing current through the armature will cause it to run hotter and will increase sparking on the commutator. 

Nice thread,

One question, I want to tie a ALCO 200 series double wound motor A-unit to a single wound motor A-unit and hook to a 3 position E unit to control them both by just removing one winding from the double wound motor. Will it work??? Sounds lie it should.

Tks,

Kev

KRM posted:

Will it work???

Yes.

(Sigh) 4-positions.  Forward, Neutral, Reverse, Neutral...repeat...

ADCX Rob posted:

KRM posted:

Will it work???

Yes.

Rob - I guess folks have been running two motors, tied to just one e-unit for some time. Have you ever seen any evidence that the extra current draw harms the contacts in the e-unit?

ADCX Rob posted:

KRM posted:

Will it work???

Yes.

Thank you so much! I have been running two/four motors, tied to just one e-unit for some time. Just never did the double wound & single wound mix.

 Great place to get what you need here on OGR!

Arthur P. Bloom posted:

(Sigh) 4-positions.  Forward, Neutral, Reverse, Neutral...repeat...

 

 

Arthur - off topic, I see you're an antique phone aficionado, shoot me an email, I have a question about a Bell System 1950's speakerphone gelliot2@neo.rr.com

GeoPeg posted:

ADCX Rob posted:

KRM posted:

Will it work???

Yes.

Rob - I guess folks have been running two motors, tied to just one e-unit for some time. Have you ever seen any evidence that the extra current draw harms the contacts in the e-unit?

it is my understanding a Lionel E-unit can run 4 pulmore motors. I see it everyday with my 4 motor A-B- A ALCO unit.  But it is a bit much for the transformer. I think the better option is three motors.

KRM posted:

ADCX Rob posted:

KRM posted:

Will it work???

Yes.

Thank you so much! I have been running two/four motors, tied to just one e-unit for some time. Just never did the double wound & single wound mix.

 Great place to get what you need here on OGR!

KRM, when you tie two (or more) motors together, do you just run three wires (field + 2 brushes) from each motor to the single e-unit? Are you completely hard wired, or do you have and plugs between engines to allow separation?

GeoPeg posted:

KRM, when you tie two (or more) motors together, do you just run three wires (field + 2 brushes) from each motor to the single e-unit?

Yes, that's exactly how Lionel did it.

(Sigh) 4-positions.  Forward, Neutral, Reverse, Neutral...repeat...

Sigh away, its a three position e-unit in the language that is common to folks into Lionel. Even Lionel described it as a 3 position e-unit in most of their documentation.
In reality, there are eight positions.

GEOPEG,

Rob, is right.

There are some post out here on my four motor ALCO and your right I just tie them 3 wires together with this three wire set up plug set from Mouser. Works great. So I can have separation and swap from sets of motive power sets.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductD...IpS7yDqfOr4SoTRYE%3d

KRM posted:

Nice thread,

One question, I want to tie a ALCO 200 series double wound motor A-unit to a single wound motor A-unit and hook to a 3 position E unit to control them both by just removing one winding from the double wound motor. Will it work??? Sounds lie it should.

Tks,

Kev

Don't physically remove the second field winding, just disconnect it electrically, ie, don't hook it up.

It is not possible to remove just one winding. Contrary to what is often posted, both wires were wound in the same direction simultaneously. Lionel connected opposite ends of the two windings together to get the reversing effect.

Somewhere in my shop I have a spool of wire with two conductors bonded together. I don't know why I keep it, it's not the correct gauge, and that cannot be how Lionel did it, because on the Lionel fields, the wires are not bonded to each other.

C W Burfle posted:

It is not possible to remove just one winding. Contrary to what is often posted, both wires were wound in the same direction simultaneously. Lionel connected opposite ends of the two windings together to get the reversing effect.

Somewhere in my shop I have a spool of wire with two conductors bonded together. I don't know why I keep it, it's not the correct gauge, and that cannot be how Lionel did it, because on the Lionel fields, the wires are not bonded to each other.

Well now! Thank you for settling that battle in my brain. I confess to being enough of a nerd to sit there and actually wonder about that very issue; how did Lionel wind the wires? I finally reasoned that no matter which direction you wind both wires, it is simply a matter of which way you hook them up that will accomplish the goal in the end. And winding them both in the same direction makes so much more sense from a manufacturing standpoint. And sure enough, I can see where the two wires that are connected together emerge, one is from the bottom of the coil, the other's from the top.

So the two conductor bonded wire you have, do you suppose that was an experiment Lionel did to make the manufacturing process even simpler? Or perhaps to make the winding process result in a smoother, more uniform coil, therefore more efficient? Must not have worked out, eh?

So, did you unwind a double coil, or did you have an opportunity to visit the factory? I visited Hoover back in the 90's, before they closed their plant in North Canton, OH, and it was an eye opener to see them making their own motors from scratch!

KRM posted:

GEOPEG,

Rob, is right.

There are some post out here on my four motor ALCO and your right I just tie them 3 wires together with this three wire set up plug set from Mouser. Works great. So I can have separation and swap from sets of motive power sets.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductD...IpS7yDqfOr4SoTRYE%3d

 

 

Thanks for the link, Kev. That looks like an excellent solution.

George

So the two conductor bonded wire you have, do you suppose that was an experiment Lionel did to make the manufacturing process even simpler? Or perhaps to make the winding process result in a smoother, more uniform coil, therefore more efficient? Must not have worked out, eh?

The spool of two conductor magnet wire didn't come from Lionel or a service station. It's just a roll of wire that I purchased because I thought it might come in handy. Don't know what I was thinking

So, did you unwind a double coil, or did you have an opportunity to visit the factory? I visited Hoover back in the 90's, before they closed their plant in North Canton, OH, and it was an eye opener to see them making their own motors from scratch!

I wish I had gotten to see one of the Lionel factories in person. I love that sort of stuff.

You can examine a double wound field closely, and see how it was wound without unwinding it.
Still, I have unwound double coil fields, and many other Lionel parts that have magnet wire.
Sometimes I use a defective part as a source for the wire. Usually to make a pigtail for another piece of magnet wire that had it's end broken off, making it too short.

GeoPeg posted:

KRM posted:

GEOPEG,

Rob, is right.

There are some post out here on my four motor ALCO and your right I just tie them 3 wires together with this three wire set up plug set from Mouser. Works great. So I can have separation and swap from sets of motive power sets.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductD...IpS7yDqfOr4SoTRYE%3d

 

 

Thanks for the link, Kev. That looks like an excellent solution.

 

George

George, You only need to grind a little off the bottom of the shell so the flat of the wire can come out.

A word of caution now that I figured it out. There is an insulating washer between the screw and the tab on the brush cover of the double wound motor that has to be removed to make it ground so it can be a single wound motor. Had me pulling my hair out for a while!!! 

But the good news is it works and now the double wound motor is working just fine on a 3 position e-unit (as Lionel calls them)

@KRM posted:

... I figured it out. There is an insulating washer between the screw and the tab on the brush cover of the double wound motor that has to be removed to make it ground..

Save that shouldered washer. They have a tendency to go missing when you need one.

@ADCX Rob posted:

Save that shouldered washer. They have a tendency to go missing when you need one.

You're about four years late with that advice Rob, I suspect the washer is long gone!

@GeoPeg posted:

I get what you are saying, but here’s my thought on that. Motor fields care about the physical layout of the wire on the field core, i.e. whether the wires are wound clockwise or counter-clockwise. They also care about the direction of current flow through that wire. So if I have two wires wrapped around the field core, one wound clockwise, the other counter-clockwise, which appears to be how Lionel did it, all I have to do is reverse the wiring to only one of the coils, and now they are both generating magnetic fields in the same direction. Fortunately that can be done on the double coil fields because all four coil leads present themselves externally, i.e. none of the leads are grounded internally.

Here is Lionel’s diagram of the wiring for a 2 position e-unit – direction is changed by grounding one coil winding or the other:

I maintain that if you change the wiring as I have shown below, to wire the coils in series and reverse the hookup to only one of the coils, then they will work together.

Alternatively, the two coils could be wired in parallel. Not sure about this option because that would cut the resistance (impedance) in half, and the current draw might get too high, potentially damaging the e-unit contact fingers.

I  know this is an old thread but I wanted to share what I learned in repairing a broken coil wire on a Coke 8473 with 2 position switch. The wires are NOT wound in different directions. They are wrapped together but when you twist 2 together, you take one of the beginning wires and one of the ending wires and twist those together, and go to hot. the remaining 2,  are the 2 for the 2 position direction grounding switch.  The wire that broke was one of the beginning wires that I could not unwrap a revolution or two to make it longer so I had to unwind the whole thing and rewind it with 3-4 inches for leads. I made a jig for a drill to hold the horse shoe and rewound it fairly well. It is working good but I have to re stake everything .

@Wolfie11 posted:

The wire that broke was one of the beginning wires that I could not unwrap a revolution or two to make it longer so I had to unwind the whole thing...

You only need most of ONE of the red or green coils.  You could not get both ends of either?

I had the 2 that were twisted together but one of the other leads that was under the whole wrap broke off to where it was unreachable. It would only run in one direction.

@Wolfie11 posted:

It would only run in one direction.

If it ran in one direction, it will run in both with a 3 position E-Unit.

@ADCX Rob posted:

If it ran in one direction, it will run in both with a 3 position E-Unit.

Yes now I understand. I didn't need to rewrap it all as long as I had both ends of one of them. Jf I converted to 3 pos. e-unit, it would have F and R. Thanks for explaining. Takes a while for this stuff to sink in... So the only reason to have a double wrap is for a manual direction switch ?