Cost effectiveness of adding command and sound to a Williams engine?

Sam;

I fully agree with your take.

I have always thought that an upgrade to command makes sense for a favorite runner or a classic or really nice engine that is not available in a command version otherwise.

This includes older PS-1 premier MTH's for instance, and engines like the K-line scale Hudson's, Berks, Mikes, etc.

For me the cost and/or trouble to upgrade an everyday ordinary engine to command just does not make sense, especially if you can buy it ready made in a command version.

 

Rod

Good write up on the cost effectiveness of doing your own or buying new. I guess it comes down to how bad you want a given engine on TMCC or is it going to be available for as much or less than the overall swap.

I'm an MTH guy now that I've just ponied up for a full DCS remote commander set up - sadly this will leave my old lionel geep with it's single pulmor on it's own track - but my 3 RMT beefs and the one beep will be scrutinized for a DCS control board install...if there's enough room!{I got them on sale so that helps alot to a conversion cost}

I have always thought that an upgrade to command makes sense for a favorite runner or a classic or really nice engine that is not available in a command version otherwise.

I concur with Rod. I upgraded a few Weavers and Lionels to either PS2 or TMCC but, while the upgrades worked well, do not consider them cost effective. A Weaver 2-8-0 I upgraded is nice, but I could have bought a new MTH PS2 version for the same or less total cost and got more features. Same for a Weaver PRR Torpedo.

 

However, I did just upgrade a Williams PRR K4 Streamlined because that is a unique engine that no one else has made, and I have a 3rd Rail N1 2-10-2 that I plan to upgrade because it is also a unique engine. I also already own two PRR Williams GG-1 that I plan to upgrade because they are the only scale GG-1s available that run on O-54 track.

 

Other than these engines which I already own, I do not plan to buy and upgrade any more engines.  For now its Legacy only until MTH comes up with a better sound system.

 

Ron

 

I'm looking for a scale PRR GG-1, and I'm considering the Williams unit with a TMCC upgrade.  It's looking like about $350 total for the locomotive and the ERR components.  I haven't found a scale TMCC/Cruise Control one ready-made for the price or I'd go for it.

You should be able to upgrade with sound & couplers for about $210 for parts only.  Boxcar Bill has good prices.

If WBB offers the sound upgrade at a reasonable price I would go with that. But a full command no, just buy one ready to go...Jim

C. Sam

I agree regarding the cost ineffectiveness of upgrading the Williams E7 in particular if you have it done by an installer as I did.[couple of years ago]. The same will likely prevail for having another install Timko flywheel motors and TM/RS in my Weaver E8 A unit.

 

The other side of the story is creating what you want in a roadname for a price. It is more difficult to wait on the iffy selection decisions of the Importers or used market if you are old and too lame to do your own work. Historically I have bought and run only by confined roadnames, namely Southern and to a lesser extent N&W, which have not been readily and consistently available in the marketplace--new or used. If I bought by any brand in any foreign roadname and paid for custom repaint/decoration, it would be only borderline less cost effective than upgrade of the factory issue.  

 

I pay little attention to the details or having a perfect nomennclature on a Diesel although I insist on good paint and lettering. 

Oh, I'm well aware of the costs for the upgrade, I've done a ton of them.   I have the couplers already, and the Cruise Commander/RailSounds Commander cost $185.  I'm just wondering if I'm missing a ready-built option that would be better.

 

I would consider the MTH Premier GG-1 with PS/2, though I'd rather have a Lionel Legacy one.

I agree that it is worthwhile to upgrade a "favorite" but there is some give and take.  I had my J1e MTH Hudson and my Greenbriar upgraded to PS2 with very satisfactory results, however when I had my favorite Railking switcher, SW-9, upgraded to PS2, performance is OK but the sound is not as good.

.....

Dennis

Dennis

I have found that many of my engines sound better with my new extremely pricy Hearing Aids.

I guess if I was truly into maximizing my cost effectiveness of O-Gauge railroading, the ideas are logical. But, I have my favorite conventional locomotives that I want to run in TMCC environments! So, my C&NW Lionel FM, K-Line GG1, Lionel UP F3, and now my 8801 Blue Comet are all either converted to TMCC or in the process. I haven't had any Williams done yet, but I have two Genesis units that are prime candidates.

 

I think it also depends on how you run your trains. Sure, if all I did was run at home, maybe I'd not convert anything. But, when you go to a show as part of a club, TMCC adds a new level of enjoyment and flexibility.

 

The other impact is the "political" one. "Political," as in: "don't you have enough trains?" In that political environment, upgrades are received more positively than new purchases.

 

Since I want to run the GG-1 in a club environment, I need either TMCC or DCS.  Right now we're strictly Legacy/TMCC, but we're going to add DCS to the club layout.

Not to be a jerk but I would do err over mth.. Mth electronics are to fragil IMO..

I think the most cost effective way to upgrade a conventional loco such as a Williams, is to add sound. Control your loco speed through your Lionel TPC or MTH TIU variable output. Simple and very cost effective.

Sam, I think Rod summed it up best. Only upgrade the engine if it can't be found in command made by another manufacturer. The only engines I consider upgrading now are conventional scale steam engines.

I was able to score recently a Williams NW2 delivered to my door for 45 bucks. Even at that price an upgrade is questionable. Throw in the 200 plus with sound and couplers and you are over 250 bucks which is close to the street price of current PS3 engines.

 

Pte

 

I agree with Bill.

 

Not everything is about cost effectiveness in this hobby for me. If it results in an improvement to an engine I really like, a few bucks one way or another doesn't make any difference IMO. 

 

You can deprive yourself of a lot of fun in this hobby if everything is about cost vs. "value", whatever that is in this era of modern throw-away electronics.

 

Jim

I guess it all depends on what you really want out of your trains. I have no use for cruise or railsounds so TMCC only works great. Weaver Santa Fe SD40-2 $125 ERR DC Commander $75 Total $200

I'm with Sam. Tom in PGH

There are a lot of variables and some good suggestions presented here. Upgrading 'special' locomotives is a very real consideration - the K-Line Hudson mentioned by Pete is a good example. I've had FOUR of 'em and now have the last one with PS2 and upgraded MTH smoke. It's a really nice operating model now. The sound is vastly superior to the RS that was in two of them and with PS2 I can eventually change it if I want to. The cost of this conversion can be quite pricey but I was fortunate to obtain this one RTR on 'the bay' at a very reasonable price - not much more than what I've usually paid for a 'stock' Hudson. It was $250-$300 less than what it costs to have done professionally.

 

My original post was to help newcomers to the hobby weigh the different options available to them regarding upgrades/conversions and be aware of the potential total cost involved to compare with just buying a MTH or Lionel ready to go.

I bought my Williams Western Maryland FA-1 AA set because the other manufacturer's did not offer what I wanted. The details on the latest version is very good, actual see thru screens and other metal details added. I had everything I needed on hand to upgrade it to PS-2 so my costs were very low. I would have paid a couple of hundred more if either Lionel or MTH offered it, but they didn't.

 

 

Trainworld still has some great prices on the scale GG1's. I think they are still around $150 for all but the Tuscan 5 stripe and the Bicentennial one, they are $170. So you could upgrade it and only have $350 or so.

 

One thing you need to replace is the speaker. The stock Williams speaker just does not have the sound quality. When I upgraded my Williams Scale GG1 I installed a speaker I got years ago from Digital Dynamics and it made a huge difference.

I don't think I would ever buy an engine for the soul purpose of doing an up-grade to TMCC or DCS. As stated by Sam's opening thread post the cost to gain factor is just not there.

But, I do have some PS1 engines that are good runners and I would like to have DCS in them. With those units, considering it's monies already spent so when I get around to it I will probably do it.

Well, since I'd be running it a command-only environment, as I already stated, that would be a non-starter.

$325?  Where from for said new Legacy?

I've done a number of Train America and ERR upgrades. The cost-effectiveness is

generally of no consequence, and I don't really care. I do it because I want that

particular loco to have command and maybe sound. I don't add smoke - if it

has it, I use it - if it doesn't, I skip it.

 

Now, money is important to me, but all upgrades, bought at a measured pace, are affordable. I am very fond of Weaver/Williams Samhongsa brass steam, and upgrades

are the only way to go there. My "old" brass Weaver Dreyfuss Hudson got the ERR upgrade

some months back - and I skipped the sound and electrocoupler on that one.

It runs very well. The quiet can be kind of nice.

 

Lucky buys on fleabay do not reflect market prices or give true cost comparisons!

 

I think you are money ahead buying engines with the features you want RTR

 

Gunny

I have two special engines I am having upgraded the yellow belly and a NYC scale Hudson with a Vanderbilt tender. Both came with the pulmore motor and as they aged they run like led sleds with lousy sound. They will both have can motors installed along with ps2. Is it worth it? For me yes. They both have special meanings to me. 

 

I also have a few WBB engines that I have had upgraded to tmcc and cruise, worth it? IMO no! But for some yes it is. I like sound quality and Until legacy becomes a Kit I guess it will have to be ps2 or 3.

I bought an unpowered WBB E7A so I could repaint it into a Seaboard Mint Green unit.

 

Once I got it painted I then wanted to run it so I bought the power kit...then I bought the ERR Cruise Commander...then I bought the MRC AC Sounder so I could have basic sounds.

 

THEN...3rd Rail offers one already painted

 

Bottom line is I spent as much buying/upgrading the WBB unpowered unit as I did on the ready-to-run 3rd Rail unit.

 

I would say if it's an engine you can't get elsewhere then do the upgrade if that's what you want.  But if one is already offered with most everything you're looking for save up and buy that one and save yourself some time and energy.

 

I have since taken the MRC AC Sounder out of the WBB unit in anticipation of getting a ERR Railsounds kit for sound.  The 3rd Rail unit with Railsounds 4 is awesome and the detail is great AND it's to scale (the WBB E7 is very close to scale)

Well, if someone can tell me where to get a scale PRR GG-1 with TMCC/RailSounds for $350 or less, I'll go for it.  I'd even pay a bit more for the Legacy, but it's over twice that!

Not trying to rock the engine{boat}, but this is why "I" like MTH...from the 1st proto to the current proto3 they all work...I've heard of touchy boards/programs/batteries..but for the cost, I see it worth it. Lionel- I don't know that system well, so I'm not bashing it and from what I think I know, a legacy has been the same since it 1st started{and add pricey}...that's a good system to not have to revamp or upgrade it...maybe I'm wrong there. I wouldn't try to convert anyone from one to the other...I just know what I like.

John{gunrunner}, try hunting on{and off} on ebay...hey, I found that proto2 0-8-0 switcher for $86 there...there are deals to be had from time to time, but I'd be lying if I said I was never outbid or lost far more than I had won. Sometimes better deals are had outside of ebay too...gotta be a smart shopper, and I'm sure you are. Keep hunting...it's out there somewhere.

I've gotten my share of deals, but then I've looked for things and never found them too.

 

I actually passed up a scale GG-1 some time back, didn't realize I'd be getting some passenger cars to go with it!

 

Oh, and the Lionel stuff works fine.

Well, if you check with Trainworld they have Lionel Legacy U boats for $299. I'm guessing only the PRR version has manufacturing defects, missing PRR Keystones on one side, so the rest should be done correctly but I'm not sure.

When did Lionel issue the GG1 with Legacy?

I got a pair of those U-boats from Charles Ro, they were $275.  Those deals happen once in a while.

 

Yes, I need to put the keystones on the one side, but the engines run great.

Actually, they didn't as far as I can see, I mis-spoke.  There is a model that I'd consider with RailSounds 5, operating pantographs, Odyssey, etc.  Sort of half-Legacy.

 

PRR TMCC Scale GG-1

Depending on which version you want they usually sell in the $500 range. I've even seen them a little less. The only issues with the engines is that they really need perfect 072 curves otherwise they derail. So, if your track work is not perfect you can have a problem. Ideally they need curves greater than 072.

Just went to the Bachmann site and they don't show the Scale GG1's anymore. Did they drop them from the line. I know Trainworld and others were blowing them out so maybe that explains it.

The $169 at Trainworld for the 5-stripe scale GG-1 is tempting.

I got mine a couple of years ago from MA&PA for $250 and thought that was a good price at the time. When TW was blowing them out at York last April they were all priced at $150 plus a 10% discount. I was tempted to pick up the Bicentennial version but by the time I made up my mind they were all gone. I think Marty Fitz bought them all.

 

I had Jeff Sohn re-number it so that it matched the sound system numbering.

 

Anyway, at $169 plus shipping it's still a good deal. I don't know if they will still have them at York.