Cost to Upgrade Protosounds 1 steamers

Hi Bob,  yes people buy PS1 locos but they must be priced right. It will help if in the description it is noted if all functions are working, if not noted the standard approach is to assume that the there is an issue with the boards. At the Railroad Museum of Long Island we look for PS1 & PS2 locos with bad boards and remove them and add a rectifier since the sounds are not needed for our layout.  This makes the locos very affordable.     Lenny J

It costs about $350 for each locomotive to be upgraded if someone else does it. 

Selling them is not much better, a friend of mine sold 8 premier PS1 steam engines for about $250.00-$300 each. Not a big market for them.

Dave

Dave is correct.  I have done a couple of upgrades.  If you have a few small tools, can use a small soldering iron and have a little mechanical ability the upgrade is pretty easy.  The kit includes everything you need.

If you are uncomfortable doing it yourself, contact one of the guys on the Forum, who does upgrades, and get a price.

I agree Dave's numbers are correct. The most affordable route would be doing it yourself. A kits lists for $200 from MTH. A few dealers offer modest discounts. The best route if he planned to do a number of them is to join the MTH club. I think the basic club dues are $25 but that will allow you to purchase kits for $170.

The first upgrade may be a bit daunting. Besides the replacement of the electronics he will have to become familiar with downloading and installing sound files with his computer. After the first one it will become much easier.

At that amount its probably worth it. One reason an upgraded engine will never be worth more than a newer replacement is MTH has consistently improved the paint and details with subsequent releases.

Pete

Thanks gentlemen.  You have given a ton of information that is very, very helpful.  I'll pass it on to him and discuss some of your comments with him.  Any other additional comments would also be welcome.  

Wally had a 35' x 35' foot layout.  I posted pictures here of it just before he tore it down.  He is an encyclopedia on trains and he really hopes to have a layout again.  Your comments will help him make a decision about diving into being a layout builder and operator once again.  

Another approach is to install or have installed ERR/TMCC.  Advantages include cost (without sounds, it's probably less than $200 to have the install done per loco) and the fact that he won't need a computer (which you say he doesn't have).  Another approach which I have no familiarity with but may be cheaper than PS3 is to install a Bluetooth system (Blue Rail).  Both approaches are likely to be less challenging than installing DCS on a layout.

Cruise commander if he wished to go TMCC way can be either $84.95 or $119.95 depending which one you get. Sound boards are basically $89.95 for steam. So your looking at $174.90 or $209.90 if you do it yourself which is not hard at all

I doubt that ERR will be cheaper, especially if you want similar function.  Given that he had decent sounds with PS/1, I'd be somewhat surprised if he wanted to go back to basic running with no sounds.  Another issue is proper smoke operation.  If he wants chuffing smoke, there are additional components to add to achieve the full function with the TMCC upgrade.

In general, for diesels I expect the costs of TMCC or PS/3 upgrades to be similar, but for steam, the PS/3 upgrade ends up being cheaper.  That's assuming that you want full function and not a stripped down install.

Just a general comment to have your friend think about, if he is retiring and is worried about finances (as many retired people are, as I likely will be), plus being of retirement age, if he were my friend I would recommend looking at his inventory of engines, see which ones he really likes and runs, and upgrade them (and he could, if he decides rather than keeping the rest as ps1, sell them, which would help finance the upgrade on the ones he does want to keep, plus help with the cost of building a new layout).  Upgrading all his engines would be an expensive undertaking, whether he does it himself or has someone do it, and being able to offset the cost of the modern upgrade and building a new layout (including I assume buying a DCS controller) , would be tempting to me. One other thing I would point out is that upgrading them to PS2/PS3 won't really enhance their value all that much, they will be worth more to someone than if they had ps1 likely, but if he like some people I have run into thinking that upgrading will pay for itself, it won't. Even if he doesn't sell the ps1s he doesn't upgrade, he can still have them and run them, and maybe eventually upgrade them if money allows. 

Just get a Z4000 if he doesn't already (I'd be surprised), run them, and have fun!

If they are broke, that's a different story. There's a lot of fun to be had, out of the older engines running on a handle of the Z.

I like PS-1 locomotives.  I have several, and have no issues buying more.  There are still a few on my locomotive hit list.  They'll either be staying as is because I want the sounds, or I'll upgrade them to TMCC.  As for buying ones that have been upgraded, I pass if it was a PS-2/3 upgrade, but that's because I don't have DCS, and the PS-2/3 upgrade process requires mods made to couplers and smoke units that make them not TMCC upgrade friendly.

But with as many as he has, I'd be more inclined to create a layout where you can run them as is, and spend the upgrade money on fitting them with BCRs.

I do as Engineer-Joe advocates.  I put a BCR in all my PS-1 steam/diesel and run them using my MTH Z4000. On the other-hand, I'm not into pure/authentic engine sounds; I'm more of a physical appearance, engine/detail person.  Love the MTH Premier line!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I doubt that ERR will be cheaper, especially if you want similar function.  Given that he had decent sounds with PS/1, I'd be somewhat surprised if he wanted to go back to basic running with no sounds.  Another issue is proper smoke operation.  If he wants chuffing smoke, there are additional components to add to achieve the full function with the TMCC upgrade.

In general, for diesels I expect the costs of TMCC or PS/3 upgrades to be similar, but for steam, the PS/3 upgrade ends up being cheaper.  That's assuming that you want full function and not a stripped down install.

John,

You are right on point.  He spent the money he did when buying all of these because of the sounds and smoke.  He wouldn't want to go without those.  

bigkid posted:

Just a general comment to have your friend think about, if he is retiring and is worried about finances (as many retired people are, as I likely will be), plus being of retirement age, if he were my friend I would recommend looking at his inventory of engines, see which ones he really likes and runs, and upgrade them (and he could, if he decides rather than keeping the rest as ps1, sell them, which would help finance the upgrade on the ones he does want to keep, plus help with the cost of building a new layout).  Upgrading all his engines would be an expensive undertaking, whether he does it himself or has someone do it, and being able to offset the cost of the modern upgrade and building a new layout (including I assume buying a DCS controller) , would be tempting to me. One other thing I would point out is that upgrading them to PS2/PS3 won't really enhance their value all that much, they will be worth more to someone than if they had ps1 likely, but if he like some people I have run into thinking that upgrading will pay for itself, it won't. Even if he doesn't sell the ps1s he doesn't upgrade, he can still have them and run them, and maybe eventually upgrade them if money allows. 

BK,

I suggested he do exactly what you said.  Sell some of the old to fund the cost of the layout construction.  I said 30 plus, but actually believe it is more like 40 plus loco's.  He's a train addict like many of us on here; we don't know when to stop buying new.  If he could get $300 for 30 of them and keeps 10, that's $9000.  10 upgrades @ $350 leaves $5500.00 for lumber, wire, paint, & detailing supplies with no money out of his pocket.  You and I are of the same mindset.  

More good ideas.  Thanks for all the feedback.  Is the platform the same for PS1 as it is for PS3 or do you have to upgrade DCS to run PS3.  Do PS3 DCS engines run on PS1 DCS (i.e. like Legacy runs on TMCC just with limit features).  Do PS1 engines work on PS3 system.  I am not familiar with DCS and don't know if it is backward compatible.  Wally was set up to run TMCC and DCS on his layout.  My layout is pure TMCC; that helps me control my spending.       

He does have a Z4000, but he likes having many trains going at the same time with individual control.  He's got tough decisions to make to lead to his happiness.  He also wants a new Harley for his summer hobby.  Hahaha!!!!  Only in America do we have such worries; God Bless our great country.    

I can tell you that with the PS3 upgrades priced at $200 if you find a guy to do the work for $100 to $150 jump all over it as that is s bargain. Any upgrade realistically takes 8 to 10 hours of actual labor and I’ll charge accordingly which is usually over $200.  Remember, when choosing a person to do the work, choose wisely and pick someone qualified to do the work. I have seen some horrible upgrades done with all manner of poor workmanship. Don’t let price be your determining factor for the person you choose

Landsteiner posted:

Another approach is to install or have installed ERR/TMCC.  Advantages include cost (without sounds, it's probably less than $200 to have the install done per loco) and the fact that he won't need a computer (which you say he doesn't have).  Another approach which I have no familiarity with but may be cheaper than PS3 is to install a Bluetooth system (Blue Rail).  Both approaches are likely to be less challenging than installing DCS on a layout.

Electronic E-unit is only about $40.  It has been post many times, ERR upgrade is much more expensive to get the same results.  As GRJ said, plus you deal with reed switch and such with out his chuff device.  It these were already Lionel engine that would make sense to add cruise.  Otherwise it is to chose TMCC over DCS.  Which is fine too, but don't do a cost comparison of different capabilities that is misleading.  G

Thanks to all for some great information.  Good to know the options if I ever decide to upgrade.  

So far, I've been content to run PS1 with a Z4000.  To a large extent, this is because I get PS1 engines for about 25 to 40% of the cost of a similar PS2/3.  

for ps 1 railking upgrade cheaper to sell for parts and buy a new one 3.0 from at discount dealer

"Electronic E-unit is only about $40."  While this is an upgrade (in terms of reliability) for PS1, and gets rid of the troublesome internal battery,  it isn't command control, obviously.  So it isn't an upgrade in most senses of the term.  In addition, much like the ERR/TMCC upgrade, you lose the sounds of PS1, which some people find adequate.  I thought PS1 sounds weren't remotely state of the art even in the late 1990s, and accessing them with a transformer was a real pain in the neck. So getting rid of PS1 and having command control was a priority for the MTH locos I had.  

Too bad the Digital Dynamics Equalizer and TrainAmerica Studios UCUB aren't still available. They were good choices for getting command control and preservation of sounds in PS1 locos for a reasonable cost.  At least for me.  There was no DCS before about 2002 and no PS2 before about 2001, so these aftermarket devices were the only options for upgrading PS1 back in the day. 

Matt, I have 180+ PS2 and PS3 upgrades under my belt.  None of them take 8-10 hours to do.  Yes they are a lot of work.    You are correct about the quality of some peoples work.    I have seen some nightmares and people do exist who should not attempt an upgrade.   Many people refuse to read the book and usually end up with a problem.   If someone wants to have an upgrade done, they should consider using an MTH tech.     MTH and many other manufacturers have made some great scale locomotives that have decent value after being upgraded to PS2 or PS3.   

Regarding PS-1 boards, not a lot of money.  I am sitting on about 75 PS-1 board sets.  I had a guy who was having me do up his Williams engines with these.  He passed and that was that.  Many people do not realize PS-1 (Protosounds) boards can still be purchased new from MTH.  They are available at this time.

PS2 and PS3 upgrades are a lot of work.  I suggest if you are going to do one the best thing is set some time aside and go from start to finish.  

I can see the first one or two taking quite a lot of time, but after you've done a bunch of these, 8-10 hours is excessive.  Now, if you get into custom lighting and the like, you can chew up some time, but for the "stock" upgrade, I'd say more like 2-3 hours is a pretty realistic estimate.

"yes people buy PS1 locos but they must be priced right"

Uh-huh - biggest bargains out there. Well-made, well-detailed and the prices are sometimes obscene (like Williams/Weaver brass). Sh-h-h - don't tell anyone.

Me - I put ERR/TMCC in mine when I want to "upgrade" (it's really "replacement") the internals. 

Some great PS-1 steamers can be turned into PS-3 steamers.    I have done many PS-1 NYC  Hudsons.   With the huge Pittman motors they make one great locomotive.  Many of the PS-1 steamers had the big motor.   Sometimes this is the only way you can get the locomotive of you desire  in DCS.    I have a few conversions running on my layout that fall under this umbrella.  The first is the Lionel C&O Yellowbelly Hudson and the Weaver New Haven I-5 Hudson.   At this time, nobody has done these in DCS and this works for me.  Yes, MTH did a RK Yellowbelly.  I do not run RK.  

MTH locomotives converted to PS-2 or PS-3 are not bad.  Doing a locomotive made by another company can be a bit of work.    

I tell people who are going to take on an upgrade to read the book .   

Boo Man posted:

...Wally was set up to run TMCC and DCS on his layout. 

If your buddy was set-up for DCS/TMCC operation and hence presumably had an MTH TIU, how was he controlling those 30+ PS1 steam engines?  That is, I'm wondering why the issue of upgrading has not come up before this (like during the PS2 era).

Is the interest in PS3 because of DCS command-control capability?  Just want to be sure the requirement is for DCS command-control.  As you know there are competing command control systems as suggested by others earlier. 

A so-far unmentioned aspect of PS3 is it offers better conventional control than PS1 conventional control - IMO anyway.  There are many conventional-control-only operators and even the occasional story about abandoning command-control, returning to conventional control, life has never been better, etc.  There is something visceral about transformer (e.g. Z-4000) throttle handles rather than remote control softkeys, icons, menus, etc..  You did say your buddy does not have a computer. 

As they say, do the right thing before doing things right.

what is the average cost to "downgrade" PS1 steamers to e-unit, smoke, and maybe whistle?  I only run conventional engines, and have 3 ($1200 dollars worth) of PS1 steamers collecting dust.  Thanks,  John A

Well if you do a cab forward it can take that much time  Typically MTH PS-1 conversions do not take that long.  Now brass and adding smoke, that can be a lot of hours.  G

Do you guys ever actually time yourself while doing the work? I used to think they only took a few hours until I started keeping a time log on my repairs then i realized they I was off by a factor of 2 to 2.5 on everything. I'm not slow but I do take my time and I do things properly. I will shorten and remove un-need wire length and sometime I will remove unused plugs and what not. I also realized even PW repairs take more time then I thought to run through the whole thing. I do a fair amount and am quite familiar with them the last big boy I did took a considerable amount workbench time. Maybe I'm just not as fast as you guys but I can say that even the HO, N Scale and G scale DCC sound installs I do take considerably more time as everything in them is custom lighting and wiring.

I do not disagree, I just finished a simpler upgrade on a 5V and spend all day running down why no speed control. What a PITA with a mux type engine and prior work.  So many different combinations on why no speed control, G

Boo Man posted:

More good ideas.  Thanks for all the feedback.  Is the platform the same for PS1 as it is for PS3 or do you have to upgrade DCS to run PS3.  Do PS3 DCS engines run on PS1 DCS (i.e. like Legacy runs on TMCC just with limit features).  Do PS1 engines work on PS3 system.  I am not familiar with DCS and don't know if it is backward compatible.  Wally was set up to run TMCC and DCS on his layout.  My layout is pure TMCC; that helps me control my spending.       

He does have a Z4000, but he likes having many trains going at the same time with individual control.  He's got tough decisions to make to lead to his happiness.  He also wants a new Harley for his summer hobby.  Hahaha!!!!  Only in America do we have such worries; God Bless our great country.    

PS1 locomotives are basically fancy conventional locomotives.  They are not command locomotives.  PS2/3 are command locomotives.  You can run PS2/3 locomotives conventionally, and they may seem like PS1 locomotives when run that way, but they aren't.  When you convert a PS1 locomotive to PS2/3, you rip out all the electronics and use the new ones included in the upgrade.  I believe you also have to replace the couplers with PS2/3 ones, and if there is a smoke unit, you have to mod the PCBA of the unit to get it to work with PS2/3.  If you upgrade PS1 to TMCC, you still pull out the electronics, but TMCC will use the same couplers as PS1, and the smoke unit doesn't have to be modded.

sinclair posted:

Boo Man posted:

More good ideas.  Thanks for all the feedback.  Is the platform the same for PS1 as it is for PS3 or do you have to upgrade DCS to run PS3.  Do PS3 DCS engines run on PS1 DCS (i.e. like Legacy runs on TMCC just with limit features).  Do PS1 engines work on PS3 system.  I am not familiar with DCS and don't know if it is backward compatible.  Wally was set up to run TMCC and DCS on his layout.  My layout is pure TMCC; that helps me control my spending.       

He does have a Z4000, but he likes having many trains going at the same time with individual control.  He's got tough decisions to make to lead to his happiness.  He also wants a new Harley for his summer hobby.  Hahaha!!!!  Only in America do we have such worries; God Bless our great country.    

PS1 locomotives are basically fancy conventional locomotives.  They are not command locomotives.  PS2/3 are command locomotives.  You can run PS2/3 locomotives conventionally, and they may seem like PS1 locomotives when run that way, but they aren't.  When you convert a PS1 locomotive to PS2/3, you rip out all the electronics and use the new ones included in the upgrade.  I believe you also have to replace the couplers with PS2/3 ones, and if there is a smoke unit, you have to mod the PCBA of the unit to get it to work with PS2/3.  If you upgrade PS1 to TMCC, you still pull out the electronics, but TMCC will use the same couplers as PS1, and the smoke unit doesn't have to be modded.

Sinc,

Like I said, I'm not familiar with MTH, but you have clarified the differences for me. 

I told Wally about this post.  He said his wife replaced their dead computer for Christmas.  Now he could get back into reading the OGR Forum and particularly the suggestions on this post.  He definitely has some good information so he could make some informed decisions.   

for me I was lucky to meet someone from the forum who converted 7 of mine from P1 to P3 and he wanted to trade me for some stuff I was selling for his services, He did a awesome job and I now run them more than ever

If the collection of PS1 locos were mine, I would seek an MTH certified tech  willing to take one PS1 loco in trade for upgrading one. It's bartering!

So right now I’ve got 2 Weaver SD40-2s I’m doing. I’ve already done one and now I’m copying the other one. I blew apart the loco, modified and painted the pilots, cleaned out the old grease, oiled the motor bushings, modified the frame mounted the couplers and pilots, put the trucks back on and mounted the board. I’ve logged 3 hours labor doing something I’ve already done once. I’ve got several hours of pulling out all the unused plugs, terminating the wires and shortening the wire runs, not to mention LED installation then troubleshooting. These don’t even have smoke units in them. I’ve done a bunch of upgrades and It’s nice to know that I’m not the only one that gets the no speed control issue.

If he has a Z4000 transformer wondering if a Z4000 remote controller may be a partial solution. BCRs in the PS1 engines and away we go...

Matt Makens posted:

I’ve done a bunch of upgrades and It’s nice to know that I’m not the only one that gets the no speed control issue.

Matt, that never happens to me, they always run perfectly, first time, every time!

If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you cheap.

Rocky Road and others have said to use a Z-4000 and install a BCR in the PS-1 engine. Why the Z-4000? Advantage? Will the PS-1 still operate the same (a bunch of handle turns)?

Wally

The Z-4000 has canned programming for PS/1, so it will allow you to do configuration changes very simply instead of the multiple throttle manipulations.

All added.