crumbling, poor rolling trucks???

I have a metal five car intermodal set from Ed R that has Weaver trucks and they roll ten times better!

Sounds like Zinc pest.  Were these stored in a damp location?  Can't really see what you're talking about in the picture.  Take some better photos and send them to Atlas, they might be willing to work with you on replacement trucks.

Joe, if they are all Atlas cars, there is a known problem with shipping damage to trucks and/or diecast body bolsters from the cars bouncing in the hard Styrofoam insert. Though all the damage I've experienced has been busted truck or body bolsters, not sideframes.

sure wish Atlas would slip a foam sheet insert between the truck and body when shipping.

Now I know why the Navy uses "Zincs" for Cathodic Protection, called a sacrificial anode (it deteriorates/corrodes before the metal it's suppose to protect.  Of course we shouldn't be running our trains in seawater , but I wonder if the moisture in the air is to blame?

I think it all came down to some of the Chinese makers not formulating the diecast material properly, too much of this or that and POOF, things start to crumble.

Just another good reason to stay with Athearn trucks with Intermountain wheel sets.....or brass....

It's hard to capture the hairline cracking that's all over these trucks. As I dis-assembled them, they fell totally apart. The side frames were cracked and released the brass bushings. The bolsters crumbled. Some pieces are tiny.

 At first I thought it was from some accident. After looking closer, I realized that the metal has deteriorated. I don't see any signs of moisture on the cars or the packaging.

 I wouldn't think there's many trucks made in America. I wish I could invent trucks with real bearings inside. They work great in G scale. You can pull like ten times as many cars with roller bearings than without, when the cars are weighted properly.

I don't know if you have any recourse with Atlas, but your truck symptoms sadly sound like zinc pest, which is from casting alloy impurities, and has nothing to do with moisture.

With roller bearing trucks, how often do you have a car that won't stay put on the track?  I have some cars now that won't stay where I park them and that's with elcheapo delrin or diecast sideframes.

Joe,

Your description of the problem matches zinc pest exactly. Unfortunately, all you can do is consign the trucks to a junk yard display on your layout (make lemonade...). Meanwhile contact Atlas and see if you have any recourse with them. Worse case scenario is you end up buying new trucks. Your wallet will be thinner, but at least the cars will be moving. BTW, not all Atlas trucks are effected. The problem seems to be batch related. And it is not limited to Atlas. I know just about every manufacturer out there has had this issue at one time or another in the recent past.

Chris

LVHR

Thank you. I did not want to bash Atlas and I have read that this was a known issue. I really just need a direction for replacement trucks. The Weaver trucks that I have, roll great. I can't find many around. I like the look of the new Atlas trucks even better and they seem to roll very well. Before I invest in about 2 dozen + sets of trucks, I would like to know that they will work better than what they'll be replacing. The Atlas metal cars have great detail and are some of my favorite cars. Because they are fairly heavy, I would like to have some really free rolling trucks under them.

 I see they still have the long Atlas flats in recent production and I'm guessing they come with the newer trucks? So I need to ask how well they roll now?? or, haven't any been shipped yet with the newer trucks and couplers???

newest ones here?:

http://www.atlaso.com/o89flatcar6.htm

I have several new Atlas cars that have arrived still in their boxes and more are coming. I'm excited to see how well they roll and act on my RR.

Joe, the plastic Athearn trucks fit pretty well on Atlas cars. I always use IM metal wheelsets with them. and they roll forever!

Zinc anodes deteriorate from electrolysis in a marine environment, not just from being wet, but from stray current in a boat's electrical system and in the water, like in a marina. they are sacrificial to protect other critical items like saildrives or outdrives from corroding.

what Joe has is definitely bad metal

Joe - When Atlas re-entered the O scale market in the 1990's with their line of cars made in China they decided not to use the NMRA spec body bolster height previously used on their 1970's era rolling stock produced by  Roco  (a second perhaps more unfortunate decision was to retain the Roco coupler pocket with snap on lid and unique mounting hole spacing).  As a result if you re-truck an AtlasO car with trucks made with NMRA height bolsters (Athearn, Intermountain, Weaver, Yoder, PSC, and others) you'll need to use a bushing or spacer washers to get the ride height right.  It's easy to do but when viewed at rail height doesn't look as good  as  a similar car set up with body and truck bolsters that match up. 

There was a really good discussionnof this recently on the 3-rail forum.  They know what causes it and how to not let it happen, but some Chinese foundries seem to not care.  You do not see automotive window cranks and convertible top fittings crumble.  You do not see syrup dispensers and salt shaker tops crumble in restaurants.  

Bob Delbridge posted:

Now I know why the Navy uses "Zincs" for Cathodic Protection, called a sacrificial anode (it deteriorates/corrodes before the metal it's suppose to protect.  Of course we shouldn't be running our trains in seawater , but I wonder if the moisture in the air is to blame?

I think it all came down to some of the Chinese makers not formulating the diecast material properly, too much of this or that and POOF, things start to crumble.

Don't want to hijack the thread but;

Bob,

During my years as a machinist with the Army Corps of Engineers,   we did the exact same thing with the lock gates.  Whenever we rehabbed/overhauled a set of lock gates,  we always bolted on numerous anodes(how many depended on the size of the gates) that would be below the waterline for the exact purpose that you described.  The anodes were always bolted on brackets that kept the anodes from touching the metal they were protecting.  It seems to work pretty well as I saw gates that were in service for 30-35 years in the water before overhaul.

The zinc pest was very common with some of the early Williams and early K-line trucks as I have had those turn into dust when I touched them.

Nick

Engineer-Joe posted:

I have some new, old stock cars and some used ones that aren't open. I finally have the room to run them, now that I'm expanding the layout. So I took a bunch out of their boxes and noticed they did not roll well when I put them together. The one Atlas large flat car that's the worse has wheels that won't roll much at all. I noticed the brass sleeve bushings had come out of the side frames. As I was trying to push them back I noticed the side frames looked bent? So I start to unscrew the side frames from their bolsters and everything started to crumble??

 I would have said that maybe the car was dropped in it's past as it was used. The wheels have no wear and the car looks mint? I tore the trucks apart further and noticed their were cracks thru everything? Even the side frames then crumbled apart???

So I've read that this has been a past concern about the cast metal from overseas crumbling in certain runs. Where I'm at now, is considering replacing all the trucks on more than 2 dozen older cars that don't roll well. No other cars seem to have the crumbling, yet most don't roll well at all. I'm including two 5 car sets of Atlas stack wells in that statement.

 I'm tempted to find some type of bearing to insert to help these heavy metal cars roll better. I had a spare set of the newest Atlas trucks with scale width and they seem to roll much better. I don't wish to invest heavily in them only to find out that when 2 or 4 dozen cars are assembled they still roll poorly.

What are U guys using? Are there any better options?

Hey Joe, I ran into this problem a while ago and posted it. Quite of few of my Atlas O "Steam Era Classic" cars had crumbling  bolsters. This is the first I've heard of Atlas RB trucks being affected. This is cause for concern now with all my modern Atlas O rolling stock. Thanks for sharing.

Atlas isn't the only manufacturer of bad metal items. Several years ago I was disassembling an Ertl 50 Chevy COW die cast truck model. It readily fell apart in my hands with very little pressure being applied. So far none other of my die cast collection has had this problem. With some items in the over $130 department, I certainly hope this will not happen to any of those!

I believe the trucks, and casting in general, are made out of an alloy of Zinc that has the trade name of  Zamak: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamak

I am not sure what the advantage in casting in, perhaps it takes details better.

The crumbling symptom called Zinc pest is caused by impurities and/or processing, details can be found with a Google search. As I recall, its caused by one of the elements wanting to form a crystalline structure at the expense of the other alloys. Lead (Pb)??

Just like others have said, galvanic corrosion is a different thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

I did a number on something at work, we have to test something in salt water, the original drain valve was plastic on an aluminum tank, when I replaced it with a brass valve, the aluminum pipe corroded. Lesson learned, use a plastic valve, and replace it every three years.

Sounds like manufactures defects and should be replaced by Atlas.

I have had a number of truck bolsters and side frames crumble, and they have all been Atlas. Most of mine are "steam era classics", and Atlas does not have replacement trucks for these since they changed the bolster design, twice I believe. These trucks have another problem and that is some wheel sets have far too much lateral play, and the wheel sets will not follow the truck frame through a switch/turnout, so they pick the points. I measured lateral wheel set play on 15 cars, and they are all over the lot re lateral.

While their cars are nice, their material (and their supplier/builder selection) leaves everything to be desired. Atlas tried to help me by sending a box of replacement trucks, in pairs. If these are installed on a car, the height of the car increases and then the couplers have to be shimmed to make the cars couple with other rolling stock. And the car looks funny. I thought that I might be able to use the wheel sets but, guess what, the axle design (ends) have changed, and the axle length cannot be used elsewhere.

I think it is significant that Atlas has the same deterioration problem with their couplers. I have had four coupler failures and two of them ruined two cabooses (circular layout). So I am buying MTH rolling stock and using MTH two rail trucks, with Kadee couplers, none of which have ever failed.

Besides Atlas (express reefer trucks) I have had similar experience with MTH (Heavyweight Passenger trucks) and Lionel (F3 Diesel trucks).

I think all were produced around 2004-2005. Not sure any use the same manufacturer??

Pete

phill posted:

Sounds like manufactures defects and should be replaced by Atlas.

I hate to imagine that this problem is bigger than what it is. If so, Atlas would be out of business replacing everything that may be crumbling apart. I doubt Altas will replace anything.

Engineer-Joe posted:

 I wouldn't think there's many trucks made in America. I wish I could invent trucks with real bearings inside. They work great in G scale. You can pull like ten times as many cars with roller bearings than without, when the cars are weighted properly.

Hi Joe,

Protocraft has O scale brass trucks with ball bearings in them and, like you said, these ball bearing equipped trucks roll as smooth as silk.  Also, they look as good as they roll but they will set you back some $$$.

http://www.protocraft.com/category.cfm?Categoryid=34

The 70-ton (33") Barber S2 roller bearing trucks are still in stock but the 100-ton (36")  version is sold out.  I hope Norm does another run of these O5W versions in the future and not just keep the P48 versions in stock going forward as some have stated.

Scott Kay

Austin, TX

Scott Kay posted:

Engineer-Joe posted:

 I wouldn't think there's many trucks made in America. I wish I could invent trucks with real bearings inside. They work great in G scale. You can pull like ten times as many cars with roller bearings than without, when the cars are weighted properly.

Hi Joe,

Protocraft has O scale brass trucks with ball bearings in them and, like you said, these ball bearing equipped trucks roll as smooth as silk.  Also, they look as good as they roll but they will set you back some $$$.

http://www.protocraft.com/category.cfm?Categoryid=34

The 70-ton (33") Barber S2 roller bearing trucks are still in stock but the 100-ton (36")  version is sold out.  I hope Norm does another run of these O5W versions in the future and not just keep the P48 versions in stock going forward as some have stated.

Scott Kay

Austin, TX

for some reason, I thought there was a truck out there that had the bearings in them! I just couldn't find them. I went to the wrong site I guess. I won't post it as I don't wish them any harm. I just think that these heavier cars would benefit from actual bearings just like the real thing does.

 I do like how some other brands of trucks roll that use special plastic bearings (delrin?). I haven't seen any that allow the end caps to spin. I would trade that off for better rolling.

I think I will order some of these Protocraft's and see how well they do overall. It seems they have all the benefits and detailing I'm after. Too bad I've already ordered other choices too. ($$$$)

 I may have another fire sale!

I'm not rich and I am not bragging by any means. Because of the way I purchased these cars second hand, I will not contact Atlas. If more new in box cars had the crumbling trucks I would have. As I inspect them all, that may change. The rest of the ones I've looked at so far, appear to be stable. They just don't roll as freely as I'd like. I had considered dis-assembling some and drilling the bushings for more free clearance. I noticed that when done that way in some G scale cars, they rolled better. I'm getting older and starting to prioritize my time better to things that cry out for attention. I have a ton of their old cars that have snapped couplers and just accept that they need KD's. I can buy the older KD's fairly cheap. I prefer the new ones though.

 One thing I need to state again, the new Atlas trucks seem to roll much better. I thank them for making great detailed cars and raising the quality bar again. I will take a five car well set and try each with Atlas, Weaver, and Protocraft trucks I think. I feel K-line is on the same level as Weaver???

I am a lucky guy.  I am quite happy with Lobaugh, although the early Athearn metal trucks were of pleasing appearance.  A friend used nothing but metal Athearn with Lobaugh wheelsets, and had really nice running trains.  I got all the Lobaugh side frames.

What we need is Kadee to join in with good quality Zamac and steel wheels.  Probably will never happen - market is too skinny.

I do run trucks of all kinds - even have those gorgeous Wasatch trucks under some of my K-Line 21" ers.  But my best luck is with bronze castings.

I never noticed the rolling quality affecting the train as much until I got these metal cars. They are heavy. I took off the lead "A" car from the well set and it seems to roll well. Yet when the whole set is connected, and several sets added, the train seems to be quite stiff. I think it's enhanced as they enter curves. So I'm thinking there may not be enough slop in the brand new trucks? I applied oil the second I opened up the boxes. Maybe I should have let them wear in?

 I don't like my engines to work too hard. I always do a pull test by hand to see how the train rolls. I can add engines before damaging anything. I have plenty of spare diesels sitting around that need use to charge the batteries anyways.

 Saying that, I now realize just what some other guys go thru. I started purchasing passenger cars and noticing big rolling differences. I'm more aware now than ever before, that these large consists I build can be tough to roll.

 I drooled when I first saw the Wasatch truck pictures that were posted. I just noticed the detailing. I don't have access to a set to see how well they perform. I like these forums to compare stuff that I otherwise wouldn't even know about. I wasn't into O scale back in the day when a lot of other stuff was available. I wonder if the seventies were more plentiful? I've never even seen Athearn metal trucks? the plastic ones feel cheaply made to me. I've only heard about Lobaugh. I do like NWSL wheels but don't think they ever dove into  RB trucks? Are bronze RB castings still being made? I have shied away from too old of stuff for compatibility reasons.

Thank you to everyone who posts!! It's a great time to be into O!

We need to get some drawings and have trucks 3D printed, if it hasn't been done already (probably has in HO).

Shapeways may have patterns by now.

OK, I'm gathering stuff to test. I got my hands on six pairs of the new Atlas trucks. Not only do they look better, they seem to roll better too. I also got three sets of the Protocraft ones to compare. WOW! I'll be back.

What are you going to compare? They may roll better, but for how long? It sounds like we need some assurances from Atlas that their new trucks will not suffer zinc rot, if that is what the problem is......or was.

Well, I put the new Atlas trucks on one older 5 car set of Atlas well stack cars. I put the Protocraft RB trucks on another set of 5 well stacks. Although the new Atlas trucks do roll better, this heavy set overall felt close to the same rolling wise. It changes the looks having the sideframes inset so far though.

 With the Protocraft trucks having actual bearings, they roll as expected, fantastic. The set of five cars started rolling on their own, down a slight incline on the layout. They roll without any effort.

I'm not ragging on Atlas here as the original problem seemed to stem from a single car with a single rotted truck messing up the set. With their newest RB trucks, they roll acceptable. If you're after the least resistance, the truck upgrade to actual bearings is significant. I can only guess at just how dramatic the difference would be to the engines having to lug these up hills. I have five engines right now pulling around a fifty car train. I know I could raise that to probably well over 150 cars if I had the cash for all bearing trucks. I believe it's only necessary on the heaviest cars.

 I would love  to see actual bearing equipped trucks on the heavier passenger consists as well.

Hey Joe, you may not be ragging on Atlas but if a derailment occurred due to a crumbing truck and some of my cars hit the deck I would be very upset. This "zinc rot" something to watch. I hope someone from Atlas is tuned in.......... 

I trust you were happy with the truck sideframe being inset from the car body?  The 3-rail scale folks have to be happy with sideframes even with the carbody side.  I think they are so used to it they think it is correct.

I think I got used to having the side frames stick out so far! It looks much better now though. Newest Atlas trucks are on the left (SP) with the Protocraft on the right (NYSW) in the picture.

Joe,

How did you mount the Protocraft trucks on the Atlas cars? Did you have to modify the car or the truck?? I ask because Atlas trucks have larger hole compared to Protocraft trucks & some of the Atlas cars I own seem to have a pivot cast on the underside of the car. I ended up using my Protocraft trucks with the Lionel Husky cars since I didn’t have to modify the truck, nor the car.

Also, did you get the 70-ton Protocraft trucks or the 100-ton Protocraft trucks?

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Firewood posted:

I don't know if you have any recourse with Atlas, but your truck symptoms sadly sound like zinc pest, which is from casting alloy impurities, and has nothing to do with moisture.

Zinc pest is either poor quality metal being used, bad smelting procedures or not cleaning the metal dies between moldings, it has nothing to do with moisture or the air.

Try contacting Atlas and see what they say.

Lee Fritz

Naveen, these are the 70 ton trucks. I simply attached them with the stock screws for now. I just left them slightly loose to allow for pivoting. They sit against the stock posts and are about the exact same height. I don't think there's any 100 ton around?

 I need to make some sleeves that are about -5mm long to slide over the stock posts on the cars and provide a wider bolster surface for looks? I would like to use a shouldered screw or add a tiny washer/spacer inside. I need to look closer at the real car to see some bolster detailing.

I have the one pair of stock Atlas trucks that have failed from the zinc pest problem.

Well, I ran into two more cars with roller bearing trucks that are crumbling. I noticed after one jumped the rails.

When they fail, I usually don't see it. The pressed in bushing seems to slide inward or the axle can just lock up. One of the cars was being dragged while the other jumped the rails. This is annoying because I'm pretty sure that both of these cars I upgraded with the Atlas blue box roller bearing trucks.

 I sent an email to Atlas this time.

I also found a Stauffer tank car that is still in it's box and the coupler knuckle snapped off and is floating in the box. I wonder if the coupler had this rot? It looks like it's losing it's paint anyways?

My experience has been that Atlas will replace the trucks if  you send in the crumbled ones.     I replaced about 4 pair last year.     They were quite willing, if I sent in the old ones.

Talk to them.

Although this thread is in the O2R forum, the same problem exists...big time...amongst the O3R guys.

In a couple of the responses above there are passing references to Kadee, and their quality in the metal die cast truck biz.  They've long served the HO market well superbly in this regard.  Then, several months to a year ago, they released trucks in Large Scale.  OMG!....if you haven't seen them, handled them, rolled them,.....you should visit your LHS and weep with envy!!

So, lets see.  China sourcing of die cast metal trucks is a crap shoot.  Kadee, a USA source par excellance in this product arena, has leap-frogged over our O2R/O3R need.  And, without going into the plethora of passionate patron promotions re Kadee couplers.....(We're talking "The Standard for Hobby Excellence" here!)...can we say now that we need Kadee's involvement in another most fundamental element of our O-hobby....de trucks, mon??????

Sooooooo......once again I'm suggesting that e-mail/snail-mail, shmoozing/boozing, kowtowing/bowing, weeping/wailing, even polite conversational butt-bussing, ....whatever......the Kadee folks need to hear from us.  Trade shows, national meets, corner pubs, gym saunas, dark alleys.....whatever.  Let's face it,.......we're desperate with a shrinking mortality and willingness to pay for primo product made in the ol' USA.   Eh, what?

Kadee Products!........Got your ears on?

KD 

(BTW....since I continue working my LHS job as per the past 17 years since retirement, and order monthly from Kadee with a passing comment to Sherri and Karen @ Kadee, I never miss an opportunity to put in a plug for O-scale trucks......in fact, ANYTHING they've demonstrated a prowess in manufacturing in HO, but now for our legion of O'ers.  e.g......have you seen their HO 40' and 50' roofwalks, doors, brake wheels, etc.??...all of which components are marketed separately as well as gracing their incredible line of assembled freight cars??  And, no.......my personal initials have nothing to do with this advocacy!)