DCC DCS Legacy PROTO2 Proto3 TMCC Compatability on layout

There are two command control systems that are generally used with 3-rail trains.

1.  Lionel's Legacy System.  (TMCC is an older Lionel command control system that is no longer made or supported by Lionel.  You can only find TMCC on the used market.)  Legacy is a better system than TMCC.  I would suggest that you stick with Legacy if you are going to a Lionel command system.

2.  Mike's Train House (MTH) Digital Command System or DCS.  DCS is not DCC.

3.  DCC (Digital Command Control) is generally not used with 3-rail trains.  DCC is the standard system that is used with 2-rail trains in HO and smaller scales.  Sometimes it is used G scale trains also.  NCE, Digitrax and MRC are some of the manufacturers of DCC systems.  DCC can be installed in 3-rail trains but it is generally not done.  

4.  Lionel's Legacy and MTH's DCS system can be run on the same layout.  However, the Lionel locomotives with Legacy and MTH Locomotives with DCS are not compatible.  You need both systems connected to the layout to run the two systems together.  

5.  You older equipment without a command system can be converted to either Legacy or DCS.  However, it is expensive and may not be worth the cost.  I suggest you buy new locomotives from either Lionel or MTH.  Lionel also has a starter systems called Lion Chief and Lion Chief Plus that is compatible with most layouts.  

I suggest that you talk to some of the modelers in your area and try the systems before you buy them. Generally the best the system to buy is the system that is used by most of the other modelers in your area.  Some areas of the country run mostly Lionel's Legacy and other areas run mostly MTH DCS system.  NH Joe

There is also LionChief (starter sets) and LionChief+ (seperate-sale locos), which essentially took the place of the lower-priced TMCC on middle-range equipment. LionChief+ adds the ability to be run conventionally, which the lower end LionChief (without the "+") lacks. It's basically radio control, but with power supplied by constant-voltage on the track just like the other two systems. Each LC locomotive comes with its own dedicated remote, although there are seperate-sale "universal" remotes that can pair up with more than one locomotive. A third generation of LC (LionChief Plus 2.0) adds the ability to be run via a smartphone or tablet using Bluetooth, as well as Legacy remotes.

Trivia: You can connect DCS and Legacy control boxes together and run both manufacturer's trains with a DCS remote. However, with this setup you will only have control of TMCC-level features (which are a sub-set of what the newer Legacy system has). The same capability doesn't go the other way--the Legacy remote cannot talk to the DCS control box.

Lastly, the newest iteration of DCS locomotives, Protosound 3, contain a DCC decoder integrated into the circuit board that can be manually switched in should your locomotive be one of the MTH locomotives that can be converted to 2-rail operation with a drop-in kit. From what I've heard, DCC does not play nice with either TMCC/Legacy or DCS signals, so it's use is typically limited to 2-rail layouts where DCC has been the one-and-only since, well forever.

---PCJ

Thanks for the invaluable input! Shame my original loco's are I guess obsolete or not cost effective to upgrade. Again Thanks for the scoop!

There's a lot of information on this thread.  Let me try to simplify it for you...

If your goal is independent control of multiple vintage locos on the same track, your ONLY OPTION is Lionel's Legacy system.  You would also have to install an Electric Railroad (ERR) AC Commander in each of your locos.  This is the ONLY command control decoder I know of that works with AC motors.

If you just want walk-around wireless control of your track voltage, you can achieve that with different components from Lionel's Legacy system.  There are a couple of ways to achieve remote control of track voltage with MTH products as well.

If you're planning to buy new or different locos, then first I would decide which locos I like best, and let that be my guide for choosing a command system.

Welcome back to the hobby.  After 50 years or so it can be quite mind-boggling.  Start by getting something simple up and running.  You can spend a lot of money that you may be sorry that you did.  Be sure whatever you purchase does what you intended it to do.  You said in your original post that you would like to have your friends come over and run their equipment.  Although at this point, they may not be able to run it on your layout, they are the best source of information available.  They can tell you the plus and minuses of each system.  Run their trains on their layouts.  The next best source is this Forum.  All the participants want you to enjoy the hobby and no question is left unanswered.  Good luck!

Trainman2 posted:

From what i've heard, DCS equipment from one generation isn't compatible with engines from another generation. I invite those who use it to clarify.

That would be incorrect, all the versions of DCS run with the DCS systems available.  In addition, you can run conventional locomotives with the full DCS system using the two variable channels on the TIU.  You get walk-around remote control of track voltage, just as you do with the Legacy PowerMaster.

I'd suggest you refrain from commenting on stuff you really don't know the answer to, it just muddies the waters.

Hi All,

Just so I am understanding what was posted.

1) DCC is not compatible with either the Lionel systems or the MTH systems.

2) I have heard/read that on MTH engines there is a switch to change from DCS to DCC, is that correct?

I do like to tinker with electronics and have been intrigued with the open format of DCC. One because it is open source and has NMRA standards there is a lot of information on how it works. I have been playing around with a home made DCC++ system using an arduino and powering up a spare old universal motor from a lionel Berkshire 736 post war unit. It was made to run on AC, however universal motors can run on DC which is the output of a mobile DCC decoder. I have had really good success with this set up, which for me was very low cost to put together. Old power supply was used as well as an arduino that I had waiting for a good use to be found. Having said that, I cannot find much information on how the propriety systems work. Legacy and DCS

From everyone's reply they are definitely not compatible which is a huge shame. This sounds like the old VHS vs Beta video tape format wars from the 70's or was it 80's Anyrate they had their proprietary formats and each had their pluses and finally VHS won out. Only to be out done by DVD then Blue ray DVD now blockbuster is gone and it is all streaming and on demand. So is this what is happening to model railroading? Is MTH and Lionel at war with each other and DCC? 

Anyway this is what I face as someone re-entering the hobby. Even if I did not have old equipment to use, the question of which manufacturer I choose sounds like will be my beta or VHS quandary.

on another note I have not seen Trainman2's post just the part that gunrunnerJohn posted. Not sure why that is???

See embedded replies.

Aegis21 posted:

Hi All,

Just so I am understanding what was posted.

1) DCC is not compatible with either the Lionel systems or the MTH systems.

Correct, no how, no way.  TMCC/Legacy and DCS can run on the same tracks at the same time, DCC is out of that picture.

2) I have heard/read that on MTH engines there is a switch to change from DCS to DCC, is that correct?

Yes and no.  PS/3 boards have DCC capability.  However, new Railking stuff does not come with the switch, but you can either open it and remove the DCS/DCC jumper or add a switch while you're in there if you want to be able to switch.  Premier products still have the DCS/DCC switch.

I do like to tinker with electronics and have been intrigued with the open format of DCC. One because it is open source and has NMRA standards there is a lot of information on how it works. I have been playing around with a home made DCC++ system using an arduino and powering up a spare old universal motor from a lionel Berkshire 736 post war unit. It was made to run on AC, however universal motors can run on DC which is the output of a mobile DCC decoder. I have had really good success with this set up, which for me was very low cost to put together. Old power supply was used as well as an arduino that I had waiting for a good use to be found. Having said that, I cannot find much information on how the propriety systems work. Legacy and DCS

There's actually a lot of information on how both TMCC/Legacy and DCS work, much of it is posted here in the forum.  Note that this is not a read a couple of paragraphs and understand all the in's and out's of each system, there's obviously a lot more than that to either system.  Also, the TMCC/Legacy system is a published standard, so you can actually develop 3rd party products that interface to and augment the operations using that system.  DCS is still proprietary, though several people have "peeled back the onion" to expose many of the operating details.

From everyone's reply they are definitely not compatible which is a huge shame. This sounds like the old VHS vs Beta video tape format wars from the 70's or was it 80's Anyrate they had their proprietary formats and each had their pluses and finally VHS won out. Only to be out done by DVD then Blue ray DVD now blockbuster is gone and it is all streaming and on demand. So is this what is happening to model railroading? Is MTH and Lionel at war with each other and DCC? 

Let's just say that they decided to go their own way, the exact reasons are the source of endless discussions.   FWIW, this happened to model railroading around twenty years ago, Lionel developed TMCC in the mid 90's, and MTH released DCS in 2000.

Anyway this is what I face as someone re-entering the hobby. Even if I did not have old equipment to use, the question of which manufacturer I choose sounds like will be my beta or VHS quandary.

Yep, only in this case, both systems survived, so many of us simply run both, problem solved.

on another note I have not seen Trainman2's post just the part that gunrunnerJohn posted. Not sure why that is???

I suspect he deleted it.

Just a thought, but if I were just starting out, I would seriously consider  a pure wireless system as opposed to a track delivered signal system. Long term new developments and innovations will be concentrated in this area. There are three currently available basic wireless system approaches: RF, bluetooth and now   wi-fi.  Also, the sudden interest upsurge in battery power leans heavily towards  this system approach.

Let's muddy the waters a bit more...

GUNRUNNERJOHN,

Thank you for the reply and information. I certainly understand, not understanding TMCC/Legacy is not a read  a short paragraph and one would garner all the info. I did not know with the little I have learned (until now,  thanks) that TMCC/Legacy is a published standard!  I will certainly take the time to go through this forum and learn about Legacy and TMCC, although from what was said TMCC is not being sold any longer. And to keep this clear in my head Legacy and DCS can both be run on the same tracks. And to go this route for older/ancient loco's I would need to spend 300.00 or so for control or they can still be run conventionally.

I hope I have this correct. and Again Thanks All for the invaluable information.

"Legacy and TMCC, although from what was said TMCC is not being sold any longer."

Just remember that Legacy remotes and command bases can operate all TMCC locos, past or present.  There are TMCC upgrades that were developed by Jon Zahornacky (Lionel's former chief technology officer, but his company was then a separate entity, then sold to Lionel and currently sold by 3rd Rail/Sunset), so TMCC is still viable and available.

"And to keep this clear in my head Legacy and DCS can both be run on the same tracks."

Absolutely, as can newer LionChief, LionChief + and LionChief Plus 2.0 locos.  They are all effectively command control, although the TMCC/Legacy system only directly operates the last of these.  All can be controlled by a $40.00 universal remote.  Unfortunately Lionel has not chosen to make this system available for retrofits, and it might well be relatively cheap compared with TMCC/PS3/Legacy in all likelihood if they did.  But that's in theory.

"And to go this route for older/ancient loco's I would need to spend 300.00 or so for control or they can still be run conventionally."

You can get digital remote control (TMCC) but not upgraded sound for much less than that if you just want command functions other than sounds.  Check out the 3rd Rail website.  Perhaps $100-150 if you do the install yourself.

Actually, TMCC equipment is still heavily manufactured and sold by a variety of firms, including Lionel.  The new LionChief Plus 2.0 is TMCC based, for instance, and will also run with BlueTooth.  TMCC will be around for a long time.  Atlas and 3rd Rail both sell TMCC equipped locomotives.  In addition, of course, as previously stated, TMCC upgrade parts are readily available as well.  I do a lot of TMCC upgrades, and I sure hope the poor folks can run them when they get them!

Hi Bob, My waters have been a quagmire for sometime. So no worries, thanks for letting me know about the new stuff coming out, however since Legacy and DCS will hopefully out live me, the battery systems seem too far off for this old man. lol The RF, bluetooth and wifi hopefully will be "add ons" or upgrades! So anything I buy in the next few years will not go the way of the conventional trains.

Thanks

John

Landsteiner and GunrunnerJohn,

Thanks for the new optimism and info on running those systems. I was feeling like the video tape wars were going strong in trainland.

Thanks a Ton

John

I also do DCS upgrades John, upgrade kits for DCS are also available.  There are tons of options nowadays.  If you have an old favorite, it can be brought into the 21th Century and run with one of the command systems if desired.

GUNRUNNERJOHN,

I have an Old (well most of my stuff is pretty old) Berkshire 736 steam engine and an Illinois Central Diesel that having the new systems control would be great. Both have universal motors AC/DC brushed motors and are from the late 50's early 60's Not exactly sure on the dates as these were Christmas presents from Madison Hardware. Dad took me to Madison hardware several times along with the Lionel exhibit.

I have picked up some other newer engines that I actually won in some local auctions. A K-Line New York Central Diesel with the passenger cars. I do not know what system would run them, lol I haven't opened them for several years. They are brand new, I have never run them myself.

Again Thanks for ALL the help

John

You'll get lots of ideas here, I can put TMCC in about anything, including stuff like this.

Too Funny! 

Here it is at the New Jersey Hi-Railers TrainStock.   Just trying to bring good cheer to the folks in attendance.

Aegis21 posted:

GUNRUNNERJOHN,

I have an Old (well most of my stuff is pretty old) Berkshire 736 steam engine and an Illinois Central Diesel that having the new systems control would be great. Both have universal motors AC/DC brushed motors and are from the late 50's early 60's Not exactly sure on the dates as these were Christmas presents from Madison Hardware. Dad took me to Madison hardware several times along with the Lionel exhibit.

I have picked up some other newer engines that I actually won in some local auctions. A K-Line New York Central Diesel with the passenger cars. I do not know what system would run them, lol I haven't opened them for several years. They are brand new, I have never run them myself.

Again Thanks for ALL the help

John

K-Line used Lionel TMCC or conventional. If you have the box it will have Lionel Trainmaster command on the box If not it's most likely conventional.  If you don't have a box TMCC will have a Program/Run switch somewhere on it.          j

JohnActon posted:

Aegis21 posted:

GUNRUNNERJOHN,

I have an Old (well most of my stuff is pretty old) Berkshire 736 steam engine and an Illinois Central Diesel that having the new systems control would be great. Both have universal motors AC/DC brushed motors and are from the late 50's early 60's Not exactly sure on the dates as these were Christmas presents from Madison Hardware. Dad took me to Madison hardware several times along with the Lionel exhibit.

I have picked up some other newer engines that I actually won in some local auctions. A K-Line New York Central Diesel with the passenger cars. I do not know what system would run them, lol I haven't opened them for several years. They are brand new, I have never run them myself.

Again Thanks for ALL the help

John

K-Line used Lionel TMCC or conventional. If you have the box it will have Lionel Trainmaster command on the box If not it's most likely conventional.  If you don't have a box TMCC will have a Program/Run switch somewhere on it.          j

I did dig out the K-line diesel and it is Lionel TMCC Command Control, and Lionel RailSounds We moved to western Pa. about 18 monyhs ago and still have un-opened boxes in basement. lol That is probably the only command anything I own in trains. Most all the rest are conventional.

Thanks

John

You have a number of excellent hobby shops in the area:

Mercer Junction, Mercer, PA.  Owned and operated by Dave Minarik

The Underground Railroad Shoppe in New Castle, PA. Owned and operated by Lou Polumbo.  See his column in "Classic Toy Trains"

C T McCormick Hardware in Zelienople, PA'

Imperial Trains, Imperial PA. just west of Pittsburgh on the way to the airport.

All are very knowledgeable and carry a large selection of O gauge

The hidden gotcha here is that it's not just the technology. Out of the hobby 50 years? And now you want to know if your cell phone can talk to your rotary dial phones? Sheesh... The remote systems are a whole new way of seeing things. They are a LIFESTYLE, just like conventional operation using those big, wonderful ZW handles from the "control panel" is a lifestyle. There is such a thing as "too much change at once". My suggestion is that you get your conventional gear back on a layout and see if running trains still thrills. If so, then maybe trying DCS, Legacy or Lionchief+ would be a next good logical step. They all enhance your model train experience by freeing you from the "control panel". But you doggone sure might miss the feel of those handles...

Don (a devoted DCS user)

Aegis21 posted:

I have been playing around with a home made DCC++ system using an arduino and powering up a spare old universal motor from a lionel Berkshire 736 post war unit. It was made to run on AC, however universal motors can run on DC which is the output of a mobile DCC decoder. I have had really good success with this set up, which for me was very low cost to put together.

Very impressive!  If you get a chance, I would love to see a video of the old 'Berk in operation.  How is the speed control?  I'm assuming you're still using AC on the track.  Do you have any problems with radio interference from sparking motor brushes, wheels actuating non-derailing turnouts, etc.?

Honestly if you have the skill to do something like this, I would just stick with DCC.  Unless you plan to have friends bring their trains over, or you want to bring your trains to a friend's layout.  In that case, I believe you would be better off installing an AC commander from ERR, and controlling it with a Legacy CAB-2.  My $.02.

AEGIS21 As much as I have moaned and groaned about LionChief, ( I'm not really a fan of it) but in your case I would try to buy a Lionchief set or a Lionchief+ with controller and see how you like the remote side of it, before you spend big money to get a legacy or DCS system. These I suggest can run on your layout even if you get DCS or Legacy. You just have to use the remote that comes with the engine/set. The Lionchief+ thou can run conventional, the lionchief can't. 

I have all my stuff basically packed up in plastic containers, or I would offer you a TMCC set I have to get you going. 

Don Merz 070317 posted:

The hidden gotcha here is that it's not just the technology. Out of the hobby 50 years? And now you want to know if your cell phone can talk to your rotary dial phones? Sheesh... The remote systems are a whole new way of seeing things. They are a LIFESTYLE, just like conventional operation using those big, wonderful ZW handles from the "control panel" is a lifestyle. There is such a thing as "too much change at once". My suggestion is that you get your conventional gear back on a layout and see if running trains still thrills. If so, then maybe trying DCS, Legacy or Lionchief+ would be a next good logical step. They all enhance your model train experience by freeing you from the "control panel". But you doggone sure might miss the feel of those handles...

Don (a devoted DCS user)

I still have a rotary dial phone and can't get it to work any more! Ok point well taken and I have put up a circle track around the Christmas tree  for the holidays since, we adopted our daughter. (5 years ago) Watching that Berkshire 736 round the tree on some gargrave track I picked up made a fun holiday. Sounds like DCS is a good start and I think somewhere along the line I won an auction with a TMCC command station. On that I have to look. I have all these rotary phones that make it difficult to find my post war trains. LOL

Thanks for a great perspective.

John

Even better, get an order in for one of the new LC+ 2.0 locomotives, they run with the Universal Remote, BlueTooth, or TMCC.  You have the best of all worlds there.

Ted S posted:

Aegis21 posted:

I have been playing around with a home made DCC++ system using an arduino and powering up a spare old universal motor from a lionel Berkshire 736 post war unit. It was made to run on AC, however universal motors can run on DC which is the output of a mobile DCC decoder. I have had really good success with this set up, which for me was very low cost to put together.

Very impressive!  If you get a chance, I would love to see a video of the old 'Berk in operation.  How is the speed control?  I'm assuming you're still using AC on the track.  Do you have any problems with radio interference from sparking motor brushes, wheels actuating non-derailing turnouts, etc.?

Honestly if you have the skill to do something like this, I would just stick with DCC.  Unless you plan to have friends bring their trains over, or you want to bring your trains to a friend's layout.  In that case, I believe you would be better off installing an AC commander from ERR, and controlling it with a Legacy CAB-2.  My $.02.

I have a test motor for a old Berkshire and an old frame from what I think was an old diesel. The Berkshire motor responds to the DCC commands and the chassis does go back and forth on two pieces of test track using and Arduino Mega, power booster (tiu I guess) and a heavy DC power supply. I used a digitrax mobile decoder for the loco.  I'll see if I can set this back up and take a little video. This is controlled by JMRI Decoder Pro program on a dell laptop.

So no AC on the track, it is truly a DCC square wave signal and encoding. Speed control is a little rough at low speeds, however I haven't played with CV's at all to enhance the operation.

I did check out the AC commander from ERR. It maybe the way to go so others could enjoy the layout also, but that jury is still out.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Even better, get an order in for one of the new LC+ 2.0 locomotives, they run with the Universal Remote, BlueTooth, or TMCC.  You have the best of all worlds there.

LC+ 2.0 is it made by Lionel?   What is it?    Is LC for Lion Chief?  Not another system!!!! Oh the quagmire gets thicker!

So now I can finally show off all my ignorance. LOL 

Thanks gunrunnerJohn

Look in the 2019 Volume 2 Catalog, LionChief Plus 2.0 is where the LC line is going.  It's sounding really good, I hope what's delivered matches what is described!  I'm going to pick up these two. 

When you look at all their features, you have to marvel at what they're delivering at that price point, keeping in mind some of the fancier steam prices!

I have seriously been eyeing these myself. I think this is by far the best deal I have seen since I got back in the hobby in 2011, even at full MSRP. If their info is correct, they better make a ton of these. I think they will sell like hotcakes! 

It's hard to imagine how you go wrong if they're as good as they are on paper.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's hard to imagine how you go wrong if they're as good as they are on paper.

Those look like great little units!

TMCC/Legacy, DCS and DCC are well constructed and have developed huge numbers of users and rightly so . My overt enthusiasm for the new wireless systems like LionChief stems from my prior experience at Motorola where we had to recognize and deal with the huge existing base of great working land-line phones, but went ahead with the cellphone. Perhaps history will repeat itself.

Ted S posted:

Aegis21 posted:

I have been playing around with a home made DCC++ system using an arduino and powering up a spare old universal motor from a lionel Berkshire 736 post war unit. It was made to run on AC, however universal motors can run on DC which is the output of a mobile DCC decoder. I have had really good success with this set up, which for me was very low cost to put together.

Very impressive!  If you get a chance, I would love to see a video of the old 'Berk in operation.  How is the speed control?  I'm assuming you're still using AC on the track.  Do you have any problems with radio interference from sparking motor brushes, wheels actuating non-derailing turnouts, etc.?

Honestly if you have the skill to do something like this, I would just stick with DCC.  Unless you plan to have friends bring their trains over, or you want to bring your trains to a friend's layout.  In that case, I believe you would be better off installing an AC commander from ERR, and controlling it with a Legacy CAB-2.  My $.02.

I hope I can upload this short video of my test track home made (with tons of help from others before me) DCC++ system using JMRI decoder pro and arduino code and a controller shield I did develop myself.

AEGIS21, If you can program an Arduino to work with DCC and use JMRI with it, I don't think you will have any problems moving into DCS/Legacy/TMCC or any other command control system. Sounds like you already have the know how and it's just a matter of learning the systems of your choice. Which shouldn't be too hard for you after doing the Arduinos and hardware/software thing. 

I feel for you on the rotary phone, I had to trade in my trusty old flip phone for an iphone a few years ago. Wanted it for my DCS Wifi system. I tried the Wifi system and found I still much prefer my DCS hand held remote. I can't make phone calls or answer them with it, but the it's great for listening to any music available and having internet access anywhere I go. Now all I need is one of those new fangled Dick Tracy wrist watches.   

Aegis21 posted:

I hope I can upload this short video of my test track home made (with tons of help from others before me) DCC++ system using JMRI decoder pro and arduino code and a controller shield I did develop myself.

Wow, amazing!!  That's great performance from what's basically a low end 60-year old toy!  Does the shield function to isolate the decoder from RFI?  I always thought DCC with Lionel-style universal motors wasn't possible.  Something about isolating the field winding from chassis ground?  Anyhow once the commercial systems came out, like so many others I traded in my curiosity for my credit card number.  Good on you for doing this and sharing it on the Forum!

rtr12 posted:

AEGIS21, If you can program an Arduino to work with DCC and use JMRI with it, I don't think you will have any problems moving into DCS/Legacy/TMCC or any other command control system. Sounds like you already have the know how and it's just a matter of learning the systems of your choice. Which shouldn't be too hard for you after doing the Arduinos and hardware/software thing. 

I feel for you on the rotary phone, I had to trade in my trusty old flip phone for an iphone a few years ago. Wanted it for my DCS Wifi system. I tried the Wifi system and found I still much prefer my DCS hand held remote. I can't make phone calls or answer them with it, but the it's great for listening to any music available and having internet access anywhere I go. Now all I need is one of those new fangled Dick Tracy wrist watches.   

First and foremost the programming was done by Gregg E. Berman  DCC++ BASE STATION
COPYRIGHT (c) 2013-2016  I also used hardware instructions from others on the net and kludged together my own rendition of the driver board (track interface board)

I used a digitrax DG583s mobile decoder but have not really played with the speed tables or any other performance changes. Only have two pieces of track so speed testing would be a real trick!Did run the motor with a big load, almost stalling the motor for several minutes and the decoder and power componets did not even warm up a bit. Those track drivers are rated at 43amps, so no worries on power issues and large loco's

I just made some adjustments to match my hardware changes for O scale.  I hope to learn DCS/Legacy/TMCC Theory so I can get a good understanding of the systems and what to use and not use.

As far as phones go, I do have an iPhone which I had to use for my passed job. So it stuck with me upon retirement. It is funny I use the thing more as a camera/memory aide than a phone.