DCC v. DCS v. Legacy - Help?

For starters, DCC is for 2 rail O guage,legacy and dcs are 3 rail systems. Legacy sends commands via the outside rails and the electrical wiring the legacy base is plugged into, locos pick up commands via the handrails that are the antenna on a steamer or a seperate antenna wire under the shell of a diesel. DCS sends commands through the center rail which are recived by the center roller of a locomotive. Lionel does not make any 2 rail o guage locos thus DCC does not apply. I believe Mth makes a number of locos that either are 2 rail or are 3 rail o guage but can be converted, thereby being able to operate via DCC.

quote:

Originally posted by RickO:
For starters, DCC is for 2 rail O guage,legacy and dcs are 3 rail systems. Legacy sends commands via the outside rails and the electrical wiring the legacy base is plugged into, locos pick up commands via the handrails that are the antenna on a steamer or a seperate antenna wire under the shell of a diesel. DCS sends commands through the center rail which are recived by the center roller of a locomotive. Lionel does not make any 2 rail o guage locos thus DCC does not apply. I believe Mth makes a number of locos that either are 2 rail or are 3 rail o guage but can be converted, thereby being able to operate via DCC.

Hi Rick,

Ok, thank you, that is very helpful! This really boils it down for me. I really like O, did HO as a kid but my wife got me back into trains with a Lionel starter Polar Express set, love it, good stuff, the kids love it.

But, I am still struggling with the whole third rail thing. Love the detail, heft and size of O but, that third rail bothers me. I know it is irrational but, it does.

So, let me ask this. Since DCC is only for 2 rail, which I am actually considering going to for this perm layout, set aside the 3 rail v. 2 rail thing, DCC seems to do exactly what DCS and Legacy does (from a functional perspective), correct?

Thanks,

Chris

Not that I have tried it, but DCC will work fine for 3-rail. These technologies (TMCC, DCS, DCC) are agnostic when it comes to the number of rails.

Forum member Fred Swain does three rail DCC. Perhaps others as well.

And MTH has assured me that Protosound 3.0 is DCC compatible on three-rail. I was curious, once, and asked.

But RickO is right to define the standard practice (2-rail is DCC usually; 3-rail TMCC/Legacy or DCS).

I don't know much, and what I know is usually nearly-useless information like this. Thanks, RickO and others, for sharing your experience and practical know-how.

Jonathan

quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan Bowman:
Not that I have tried it, but DCC will work fine for 3-rail. These technologies (TMCC, DCS, DCC) are agnostic when it comes to the number of rails.

Forum member Fred Swain does three rail DCC. Perhaps others as well.

And MTH has assured me that Protosound 3.0 is DCC compatible on three-rail. I was curious, once, and asked.

But RickO is right to define the standard practice (2-rail is DCC usually; 3-rail TMCC/Legacy or DCS).

I don't know much, and what I know is usually nearly-useless information like this. Thanks, RickO and others, for sharing your experience and practical know-how.

Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,

Ok, now you are muddying the waters a bit for me. Perhaps I am confused but, if DCC works for 3rail also? Which leads me back to my original question. If DCC works for 3 rail what is the functional/operational difference between DCC v. DCS and v. Legacy?

Chris

To make things as simple as I can, if you want a large variety of things to operate , with loads of features at better prices go with three rail O-guage trains. 2 rail trains are in many cases brass demand a higher dollar and they are a signifigantly narrower market than 3 rail all while having less sound and smoke features. Mth and Lionel are the bigest players in O-guage and to get the most out of there locos you need each remote system independently, because they operate differently as I explained above. Sound details and features of a 3 rail loco quickly take your mind off of the center rail, and think of that center rail as a highly reliable method of delivering track power that signifigantly leessens the need for the impecccably clean track H.O. requires for smooth operation. I would advise you to go to the local hobby shop if possible and try and view the operation of premium MTH and Lionel locos in person, or at the very least view some on youtube, there are also many videos posted by forum members as well if you do a search. I switched from H.O. years ago as well,and don't regret it in the least the trains are bigger the smoke is bigger and the sounds are second only to the real thing. No more issue with certain rollong stock derailing for no apparent reason, no jerking locos even though the track is clean. Look into the more premium locos your polar express is a simple reliable set but doesn't even touch the sound and smoke loaded scale O-guage stuff. Get some catalogs, do some research, that will be the best way to explain everything thats out there, theres just not enogh pages on this forum

quote:

Originally posted by RickO:
To make things as simple as I can, if you want a large variety of things to operate , with loads of features at better prices go with three rail O-guage trains. 2 rail trains are in many cases brass demand a higher dollar and they are a signifigantly narrower market than 3 rail all while having less sound and smoke features. Mth and Lionel are the bigest players in O-guage and to get the most out of there locos you need each remote system independently, because they operate differently as I explained above. Sound details and features of a 3 rail loco quickly take your mind off of the center rail, and think of that center rail as a highly reliable method of delivering track power that signifigantly leessens the need for the impecccably clean track H.O. requires for smooth operation. I would advise you to go to the local hobby shop if possible and try and view the operation of premium MTH and Lionel locos in person, or at the very least view some on youtube, there are also many videos posted by forum members as well if you do a search. I switched from H.O. years ago as well,and don't regret it in the least the trains are bigger the smoke is bigger and the sounds are second only to the real thing. No more issue with certain rollong stock derailing for no apparent reason, no jerking locos even though the track is clean. Look into the more premium locos your polar express is a simple reliable set but doesn't even touch the sound and smoke loaded scale O-guage stuff. Get some catalogs, do some research, that will be the best way to explain everything thats out there, theres just not enogh pages on this forum

Hi Rick,

Thanks for your help. That was really insightful. I have been trying to wrap my head around this for a while now and that is a really concise explanation of the different flavors of O and really helpful for me.

Yea, I have seen the videos of the premium, Lionel and MTH trains and they look great, which is what was/is driving me to look in to remote control. I have been eyeballing several of them. When I decide which one to buy first, I wanted to pick up a remote control system as well. I just want to start off on the right track and not have to rip something out because I didn't ask any questions.

Chris

As was mentioned I do run DCC with 3 rail. The catch is that I'm not your normal 3 rail person. I currently run outside 3rd rail which to me looks far more natural than standard center mounted 3rd rail and I have also played around a bit with stud rail. I don't like a center rail either and can't stand large flange wheels. The more time goes on the more I am transitioning completely over to 2 rail.

In order to run DCC in 3 rail equipment you don't just hook up power to the track and go. If it's a Lionel engine you have to take the guts out which means no more sound. If sound doesn't matter then you can wire the motors straight to the power pickups and run off of DC power. I did this on a starter set steam engine and love it but I wasn't running DCC on it. I even kept the smoke unit hooked up. If you want to retain sound then you'll have to reinstall a different sound board such as one from Tsunami. Removing the sound boards from Lionel engines and then installing new DCC decoders and sound boards is not the cheap way to do things. Keep in mind I'm not even talking about doing a 2 rail conversion. This is just to be able to run DCC with DC track power on 3 rail track. By the time you go to the effort to convert a Lionel engine to 2 rail and DCC with sound, you may as well have just bought a different engine from another manufacturer.

MTH engines may or may not be a problem. Running them on DC track power as opposed to AC track power may or may not work as some of their engines have the 3/2 feature and others don't. The engines that do have this feature can be purchased in either 2 rail with scale wheels and fixed pilots or 3 rail with deep flange wheels and swinging pilots. Up through Proto 2 equipped engines you can not run them on DCC but you can run many of them on DC power. Again you can't run all of their line on DC. I believe the new Proto 3 equipped engines will be able to run with DCS or DCC but you'll have to double check that as I'm not entirely sure. Most engines you can currently find from them are not going to run on DCC unless you change the boards.

As far as which system is better is a subject of intense debate. Proponents of DCS or Legacy will claim that their systems go beyond what DCC can do and ultimately has more than 28 different options. How many does one really need though? Some of the neatest features (literally bells and whistles) come on Lionel Legacy engines and will only work with their system. I can personally live without a moving bell or remote uncoupling on the engine from the remote, or steam from the whistle but they are neat and something you won't see in DCC or on anyone else's engines. If you are happy with the sound of Lionel or MTH engines then you may want to use one of their systems.

If you are going into 2 rail, the easiest suggestion is to tell you to just use DCC. DCS and Legacy have been done on 2 rail but there are other issues. DCS was designed for 2 rail and as such always assumed that the running rails would be one polarity and the center rail another. In 2 rail this isn't true. One rail is positive and the other negative. The system is polarity sensitive so if you have a 2 rail layout with a reverse loop you are going to confuse it. If you put the engine on facing the opposite direction without flipping a polarity switch inside the engine you'll confuse it. MTH should be or may have already addressed this issue with DCS by now but it is something to be aware of should you decide you want to try DCS on a 2 rail layout.

The safest advise is to advise that if you are going to go 3 rail to use either Legacy, DCS or both. If you are going to go 2 rail use DCC. You can always mix things up if you don't want to follow this simple suggestion but it's not going to be very easy and will require lots of work on your part to make it all work together.

The real eyesore in 3-rail is the clunker wheels
and couplers as well as the third rail.

If you want to have a railroad that looks like a railroad,
go 2-rail DCC and use Atlas or Weaver locos and rolling
stock. They're made for 2-rail not adapted to it.

Ray

Thank you Fred, Ray and Stan, this has all been hugely helpful. Not settled on a single system yet but am starting to see the advantages and disadvantages of each of the systems.

Thanks,

Chris

Chris      Im a two rail guy, and Ive agonised over this very question, so Ill try to be brief so as to not give you a headache.

DCC It is the two rail standard,and it is computer controllable, start up is more expensive than say DCS,TMCC or Legacy, but its more flexible , availability of decoders mostly,with boards available for small to large locos, my chiose of systems would be NCE.  Its like owning a PC, theres fiddling involved, and for some this is good, but you can put a board, decoder in just about anything.

 

DCS its more like owning a MAC, more plug and play, MTH are good at crossing Platforms,to some extent, for example ,PS3/DCC board in there new locos, just being slowly released now, the start up is hard to beat at around $300.00 and this gives you, radio, or hands free,and heaps of power, with four channels at 10amps each,with conventional control and DCS. It can be computer controlled but at present MTH doesn't support this, 2 rail locos are available and if you like modern diesels like say SD70ACe (I love them) then your set ,there Premier rang is very nice, in general you have to pre order two rail from there cataloge, boards are available and all come with sound at about $150-170 MTH dont make these as available as they should, and until they make there HO boards available, your limited size wise to what you can put them in ( lets say you wonted to run narrow gauge) but the release of there PS3 boards, maybe at the end of this year, in O my change this.

 

If you are going 2 rail, Lionel or TMCC, Legacy aren't really worth looking at, thought it cane be done.

 

So thats it from a two railers point of view.

 

Stephen from Down Under       (cTr...Choose the Right)

Hi Newto O,

 

I think that the most important decision you need to make as you start into O gauge railroading is whether you are going to be a 2-rail or 3-rail guy.  2-rail looks more like real railroads but there are some significant disadvantageous.  The biggest disadvantage is that you need much larger radius curves in 2-rail than you do in 3-rail. This was deciding factor for me.  I choose 3-rail because I could get the largest 3-rail engines around a 36 inch radius curve (O-72).  

 

Large 2 rail steam engines require 60 inch radius curves or larger.  2-rail passenger and modern freight cars also require 50 inch radius curves or larger.  If all you are going to model is narrow gauge or small diesels then you can away with much smaller curves in 2-rail.  If you have the space for 2-rail O and that is what you want to do, choose DCC.

 

If you don't have the space to run what you want in 2-rail, then choose 3-rail and DCS and/or Legacy.

 

Joe

 

This is a very interesting discussion. I am wondering about the experiences with two rail Legacy commented on above. I am an S gauge American Flyer operator/collector and use Legacy and it operates without issue. The track power is AC. AF is of course two rail. 

Tom

Stephen,

would you contact me off line please? I tried your email listed here but it's not working. I'm after some advise on locally (Australian) sourced DCC stuff.

cheers

Dave.

Hi Stephen & Joe,

Great points, thank you.  I am a little further in my research and have settled in on 2-rail and DCC.  I am limited in space like most of us but, I am most interested in modeling modern, 1980 to present, systems.  Now I am trying to learn more about ESU ECos, Zimo and NCE DCC systems.  I know NCE is very popular here in the states but, the ECos 50200 and Zimo (new mx10 & mx32) look very promising and will immediately intgrate in to Railroad & Co Train Controller program.  Any thoughts on any of these systems?

Thanks,

Chris

Chris.....I did look into Zimo at one stage but the cost put me off.  It may be more affordable in the US . It sounds as if the computer side is important to you !

 

Stephen from Down Under      (cTr...Choose the Right)

Hi Stephen,

Yes, the computer is important, simply because I see the hobby going that way over time and I think it allows a bunch of new possibilities and attracts younger potential train enthusiasts.

I can't figure Zimo out yet.  It appears they stopped production of the base unit a while ago but, the new unit isn't ready to go yet and yes, it does appear that it is expensive.  So, I am not sure what I am going to do.  I hear great things about Zimo but, they don't have a product right now.  So, I am still trying to learn more about all of the different DCC systems.

Chris     Fortunately most of the popular DCC suppliers support computer interfacing its just a mater of choice.

 

Stephen from Down Under    (cTr...Choose the Right)

Hi Stephen,

Thanks.  I am really starting to lean towards ECos.  I was able to download the entire owners manual from their site and it cleared up a lot of questions about things I had reservations about. In fact, after reading it, I was pretty excited.  We'll see, I have a couple smaller projects I need to complete but, I think ECos might be the one. 

Chris

Has anyone does an iPad (or one of the Android based tablets) control yet?  Seems like it would make a great visual controller with the proper software.

 

Mike

Hi Mike,

Yes, folks are starting to use their smart phones and tablets as controllers/throttles. There are a couple ways to do it.  Railroad & Co. makes a program called TrainController, http://www.freiwald.com/pages/index.html , that has a built in interface for mobile devices.  Also, there is RocRail and JMRI (Java Model Railroad Interface) http://jmri.sourceforge.net/ which is a free open source control tool. 

Most people who are doing this right now have it configured something like this... Power Supply ==> DCC System ==> Computer (with train software) ==> Wireless Home Network ==> Mobile Device.  The trick is that most DCC systems will not talk directly to wireless network, they want only to talk to their handheld throttle.  That is where the computer software comes in, it has a built in networking interface to allow you to control your trains via your home wireless network.    Dave Heikel, another OGR forum member, has implemented iPad control for a client of his and I think they are going through MTH's DCS to Railroad & Co's Train Controller Software to the iPad via the home network.  But, you can use what ever control system you wish as long as it talks to the train control program on your computer. Oh, your computer doesn't have to be high powered.  If you have an old one laying around doing nothing, you could probably repurpose it to run your trains.

Now, ESU's ECos 50200, http://www.esu.eu/en/ , has the ability to do this without the computer and train control program in the middle.  This functionality is built in and you just connect it to your home wireless network and go.  Here is a link to a You Tube video of a hobby shop in Cincinatti, where the owner is demonstrating the iTouch controller with ESU's ECos 50200, with a G scale LGD engine  NICE!.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?f...ge&v=CkwqgSRNkOg . Oh, and this guy has several videos on trains and DCC stuff.

Getting my trains to run off of my Galaxy Tablet is a requisite, which is why I am looking in to all the different options now.  My spec is starting to look like... ESU ECos 50200 ==> Old Laptop with Railroad & Co. Train Controller ==> Wireless Network ==> Samsung Galaxy Tablet 10.1 or Galaxy Phone.  Hope this helps.

Chris

PS - Full disclosure... I have no affiliation or business interests with any of the mentioned products or manufacturers or their competitors.  I just enjoy technology and trains.

I am fortunate to learn something today myself.

 

O scale will benefit if every Engine maker can at least agree on a common format.

 

DCC is simply a language in binary zeros and ones. On and off. It is beyond the scope of this thread to get deep into it. It is a manner of speaking to a computer on a rail with a signal that can be heard and understood other than more power less power on AC or DC. (I never figured out how the Lionel Hudson's Horn can know when to blow... heh.)

 

I was two rail and have decided to go with the future dual or tri mode engines from MTH, Lionel and Sunset among others that might be available. I will probably end up running everything at some point. But not all together.

 

The other consideration is the expense. Older engines are hundreds of dollars and well done when considering what they are in terms of power, traction, "Manners" and intangible enjoyment to the Owner. I hate to consider converting to accommodate any or all the technologies or none. (None to me means ripping out all electronics and running straight DC or AC.)

 

The center rail does not bother me anymore. I remember even a long time ago when there was third rail outside the two rail O scale. Also recalling what 50 dollars meant in terms of today's money back then when 5 dollars got you a tank of gas.

 

As others have said, the Hobby is a compromise. Some have gone totally wild tearing out electronics and I may dare say engaging in a side hobby of electronics installing what they want. Others have went ahead and settled on one and some all of them.

 

The one biggest hang up I suffer is back to basics. That third center rail to me means AC power, something you don't want on a DC engine. When engine makers say they can run either AC or DC, I must think that the computer in the tender runs the AC while the motor runs the DC on command.

 

I suspect Club activity is what will define O scale into the future. One would like to simply bring a engine to run and not have to worry about this or that or something else. Or going to a friend's house to run two rail or three rail or something else like Radio/Onboard Battery power control. The best solution would be the new engines being made now that can handle anything you throw at em.

 

I think I also remember when DCC or electronic anything was new some years ago. The magazines filled with a new language that is necessary to understand these things and I was one of the few people who probably viewed it as Boilerplate and discarded them as very dry reading.

 

It's still new today. Maybe one day it will be simple. Red wire goes here, black wire goes there. Now lets run a train.

Hi Lee,

Amen brother!  One common format, I'm in.  All the other scales run DCC, including S and G.   So there is nothing stopping anyone from running DCC except perhaps the decoder isn't installed.  I do think we are starting to see some of that today in O and I might have some other good news for you. 

All of MTH's proto 3 engines come ready to run DCC, just like TMCC and DCS with the decoder pre-installed.  No opening the shell and monkeying around with wires.  Also, if you buy one of their Premier engines, you can easily convert to 2-rail operation by basically swapping out the trucks (haven't done it myself but heard it was very straight forward). It also is supposed to support all 28 NMRA functions as well.

So, that is one.  Perhaps we can get another. But I think as computer technology continues to come in to the hobby, the more it will go to one standard.

Chris

I have been in the hobby for years.   I migrated from 3 rail AC to 2 rail DC many, many years ago. 

 

And over the years, most of the model railroaders I know are in scales other than O.   And many are NMRA members.  

 

The bulk of the hobby, outside of the collectors, uses DCC in most scales.   This is the common language and the NMRA standard.   The various systems use different ways of putting the signal on the track, but the signal to the locos and what is on the track is the same - club, home, or wherever.   You can go to any scale train show or hobby shop and find DCC products and information.   DCS or the other toy-train proprietary systems are unique to single manufacturers and bascially only in O gauge trains.   MTH is trying to expand into HO, but I don't see much about that in the general hobby press.    f

 

Currently among the 15-20 layouts in my area, only one is still straight DC.   All the others are DCC.   None are using any other system.   This includes the large O scale club layout nearby and the large O scale commercial layout nearby.

Gentlemen,

You may be interested to know that the Lionel Legacy system is now active in "S" scale, a 2 rail system. Further, if you should wish to look on the "S" scale froum there is a discussion involving some from Lionel about the possibility of making a DCC decoder that would replace the Legacy receiver in their engines. No policy as yet but at least they are talking. Lionel is also producing some equipment as "S" scale. Maybe their ideas are changing and this thought process may progress to "O" scale.

 

As for MTH PS3 engines they are ahead on the game but some quirks are starting to develop, check the PS2 forum. Nothing serious but some problems running on streight DC.

 

Al

Hi all,

Chris, I think you will be pleased with RR&Co. Train Controller for your computer interface.  You made some correct assumptions about how we have implemented computer control on the NorthWest Trunk Lines.  We use iPads, iPhones, and Anroid phones as local control panels and walk around throttles.  The mobile devices connect to the house LAN via wi-fi and the computer running Train Controller is hard wired to the same network.  We are using two NCE systems connected to the computer via their RS232 serial ports.

 

I'm curious what factors are peaking your interest in ESU.  I understand looking at Zimo while you are comparison shopping.  They are the very high end of DCC, but much of their technological lead has faded.  Zimo's primary advantage has been the ability to quickly add support for new codes.  Now that most systems support 28 functions and the DCC committee hasn't approved many new innovations the field is pretty even.   The biggest technological difference right now is transponding via Digitrax Loconet or Lenz's RailCom.  Is it ESU's partial embrace of RailCom that has attracted your interest?

 

Now, ESU's ECos 50200, http://www.esu.eu/en/ , has the ability to do this without the computer and train control program in the middle.  This functionality is built in and you just connect it to your home wireless network and go.

I agree it is a nice advantage to eliminate the computer.  It helps get people through the door of computer control if they can use their mobile devices directly.  FYI, Digitrax has also been demonstrating a direct interface that puts Loconet access on the house network and an accompanying iPad app.  There is a slight speed advantage to going direct with an app, but this is pretty minimal if you have a gigabit network switch.  However, all of the direct apps I've looked at leave a lot to be desired as a user interface.  While making the digital link to the system is easy, the data entry job of addressing all the engines and detectors is still the same.  In the end you're left with a good throttle, list driven switch and route control instead of a graphic driven interface, and a dedicated app that is not cross platform compatible.  That's one of the big advantages of the Freiwald approach of using a web server.  Anybody with a web enabled mobile device can play.  At our last operating session of the NWTL we used the iPads as local control panels, one person used an iPhone as a throttle, another person used a Windows phone, and I used my Android phone as both a control panel and a throttle.

 

I looked at ESU, Zimo, and several other DCC systems before settling on NCE for the NWTL.  Ultimately one of the big deciding factors was cost per detector.  NCE's detection hardware costs less than $3 per detector.  NCE's Auxiliary Interface Unit (AIU) costs $40 street price and has 14 detectors.  ESU's Ecos Detector cost $230+ street price and has 16 detectors for a cost of more than $14 per detector.  Even a small layout will require at least 100 detectors for reliable automation.  On the NWTL we wound up using over 800.  With ESU we would have spent almost $15,000 just on detection hardware.  The only real advantage of the ESU hardware is that it can detect RailCom equipped engines on 4 of the 16 detectors.  However, I don't think RailCom is either necessary or practical (at least at this time) in O.  RailCom does make train tracking more reliable because the system is told which engine is in a block, not just an engine is in a block.  Train Controller is already pretty darn good at keeping track of trains as they navigate the layout without RailCom or Digitrax transponding.  The only O scale RailCom decoder currently on the market is a Lenz 3amp decoder.  This is NOT a sound decoder.  If part of the attraction is to be able to purchase MTH, Atlas, 3rd Rail and other engines with factory sound decoders already installed, RailCom is not in the cards.

Hi Dave,

How are you?  Great insight as usual.  I can't take credit for the RR & Co software pick, that was your suggestion and it is very very nice.

You know I am new, getting back in to trains, so, what has me leaning heavily to ESU ECos is primarily form factor and more importantly User Interface. Their touch screen user interface is the best that is out currently and when I say best, I mean ease of use.  My girls (ages 4 & 6) will be able to run the trains just like they do now on straight DC.  No figuring out function buttons or submenus.  The touchscreen has a gui interface that works like a tablet for the most part.

You are correct when you say that technically most of the manufactureres are now on a roughly similar playing field when it comes to the 28 NMRA functions, I found that when looking at the different systems. I am not sure about what you mean about ESU's partial adoption of RailCom, it appears they are putting it in everything but, it really wasn't a factor for me. It's a "nice to have" but, RR & Co software will be handling much of that when fully implemented.

But, you brought up a great point.  I am leaning heavily to ECos 50200 for the command station ( http://www.esu.eu/en/products/...os-50200-dcc-system/ ) and haven't locked in yet on the detectors etc, even though I would lean towards them just to keep equipment similar.  One of the things I like that they do, is that the ECos is very cross platform functional.  It can read your Loconet detectors and use them. It can also do it for S88, and others.  So, if you already have a layout with the detectors installed, say the Digitrax Loconet, you get the LocoNet adaptor (click here http://www.esu.eu/en/products/...uerung/lnet-adapter/ ) for Ecos and you can continue to use your current detectors. Also, it allows for use of all of the major manufacturer throttles to connect to it.  Or, if you prefer a particular brand of detector you can continue to use them.  Here is a link to their expandibility page which has a schematic on the bottom that I personally found helpful because it showed How a lot of various systems connnect to ECos  ( http://www.esu.eu/en/products/...ystem/expansibility/ ).

My focus is looking forward and attempting to future proof my equipment as much as reasonably possible.  A manufacturer that builds in multiple protocols for your use, like open source software has my attention. So, if there is slick new decoder that does something special or something else, I will probably be able to get it to run without having to buy a whole new system. Regardless of who made it.

Now, I did look at NCE and Digitrax and their systems are fine.  I just personally don't like their bases and throttles. Hardware (the guts) is mostly comparable to ECos but, they lose me with old tech remotes and design.  Now, the Zimo, MX 32 throttle is real interesting because it has a large graphical TOUCHSCREEN interface on the throttle!  So, it combines the form of the older CABS folks like and a much better interface.   I didn't go that direction personally because a) the MX10 command station still isn't out yet b) I have 2 girls and the ECos comes with 2 throttles built in, very parent friendly.  And you can swap the throttles by pressing a button on the screen if you chose. Finally, I found the ECos here in the states for $675, which is a touch expensive but, when I compared apples to apples and added up all the parts of the other systems (base, power, wireless cab etc), it wasn't too far off and that touchscreen pushes it over the top, for me atleast.  I can't stand scrolling through menus. I have flashbacks of the late 80's and early 90's when I have to do that.

Given the generally similar hardware capabilities of the manufacturers and that they all essentially do 28 DCC function support, it really comes down to system flexibility, the User Interface and ease of use, for me at least.

Now Dave, I know you have a lot more experience in this than I do and I appreciate all of the help and advice you share, especially with folks like me trying to figure stuff out.  So if you think I missed something or am possibly walking in to  a bear trap, I am all ears.  I have no personal or financial interest in any of these companies, I just want to build the best model railroad I can.

Thanks,

Chris

Wooops, forgot the link to the MX 32, details page... here it is... http://www.mrsonline.net/html/cabs.html

Chris

I too have been trying to figure out the DCC DCS Situation - this thread has been extremely helpful. I intend to go back an reread. I have a lot of older Lionel O gauge trains and would like to be able to install sound and computer control. I have looked at DALEE boards and they seem to be very rudimentary at best. I do like the DCC boards (Tsunami - Digitrax for instance) and really like the capabilities. I also have newer Lionel TMCC and Legacy equipped trains as well. It doesn't appear that any manufacturer offers a drop in board compatible with Legacy or Protosound to install in these older Lionel trains (other than DALEE which seems crude to me). Am I wrong on this or does anyone do this? Has anyone run DCC with Legacy or Protosound?? CONFUSING!!

Here's something to check before committing to a DCC system for 3 rail trains.

 

I experimented a while back with a Digitrax DCC system with a variety of brands of decoders installed in a variety of can motor equipped 3 rail engines.

 

Installation was easy and control was excellent with the back EMF decoders I used. I particularly liked the Digitrax handheld with dual throttle controls. It made controling two engines so much easier than the switching back and forth with Legacy or DCS controllers.

 

But here was the problem. The DCC system was extremely sensitive to momentary short circuits -- and these are virtually inevitable when center rail rollers pass over switches. A short would occur and the system would quickly shut down, and recycle just as quickly, resulting in an annoying "hiccup" in the train's motion. It was brief, but annoying.

 

Of course, Fred's outside third rail system or a two rail system would not experience such a problem at switches. I think it is just an unavoidable center rail problem. DCS and Legacy/TMCC are more forgiving in this regard being designed specifically for 3 rail.

 

Some DCC systems may be more sensitive than others, and I would be curious as to the experiences of others with different DCC systems. But, it's something to check out before committing to 3 rail DCC.

 

I would imagine that the new MTH Proto 3 engines would behave better in this regard under DCC control.

 

Also, my experiments were conducted about 5 years ago. Present, state of the art systems may have eliminated this problem too.

 

I'm curious about the findings of others using various DCC systems for center rail 3 rail.

 

Jim

Hello Jim,

 

Here's some thoughts for you....

 

While designing for TAS I built a reverse loop controller for DCC.  It was high amperage (10) using relays and logic IC's, no microcontroller.  And yes, you are quite right, some of the DCC systems seem to detect a fault before it happens!  It took quite a while to overcome this feature but the device did work.

 

So now I am playing with DCC again, having built a 10 amp decoder.  I have designed and made a printed circuit layout for a booster using 40A MOSFETS.  This means that i can use a fuse or slow acting fault protection and not have the booster driver fail.  We'll see after I build and test it. 

Regards,

 

Lou N

Hi,

 

The momentary disruption you refer to is also present in other scales with DCC, primarily from dirty track etc where power is disrupted.  

 

The new generation of DCC decoders have an onboard battery and memory to maintain performance through areas for a a few seconds (depends on the decoder) where the DCC signal is disrupted, regardless of why it is disrupted.

 

I know Loksound and TCS both have decoders with this feature.

 

Chris

 

 

Lou and Chris,

 

Thank you for the info on the new features that may eliminate this problem. I see I'm going to have to re-visit my DCC experiment sometime in the future.

 

Jim

Fortunately my outside rail layout is small. One thing I did take care with is making sure I never lose contact with the outside rail ever. Obviously losing your power source is bad with any setup but I don't have engines that can coast over a small distance. For me everything is done at switching speeds. I have an outside rail pickup at each end of my engines which means I never have a large gap to cross like some engines do that only have pickups on one truck spaced about 3" apart. I also don't have to worry about the running rails being insulated or dead where a pickup roller would need to cross either so all of my running rails, frog and guard rails included, get power (ground). No dead spots anywhere at all.

 

I'm currently planning a new permanent layout since we just got into a new house a few months ago. This one will be DCC but I am going to use the Airwire 900 system. No more track wiring. I hate wiring. It will be all on board battery powered DCC. I won't need to worry about rail insulation at switches or any polarity changes either. I don't have lots of engines to convert and will never have lots of engines so the added cost of such a system isn't going to be all that severe. I think not having to worry about polarity reverse units at switches is going to offset things a decent amount as well.

One of the initial questions was what was the difference among the systems.

 

The simple answer is that they all send different types of signals to the receivers/decoders in the engines.   And these receivers/decoders interpret the signal to make the loco do something.    In DCC you have multiple makers of command stations and decoders.    You can use any decoder with any command station because the signal is standardized.    You cannot mix command stations/throttles.   But DCS and Legacy TMCC have only one vender/mfg as far as I know.   so you only have one choice of receiver for the system you choose.

 

As far as performance, they all seem to perform equally well.    And I od have a friend who has 3 rail layout that is all DCC using the CVP "EasyDCC" system with radio throttles.   It works well unless the track is dirty.

Is there by chance a spreadsheet that would allow one to compare/ contrast all the differences between the systems?  

Instead of a battery, folks have used a capacitor...this I've seen in On30 DCC. In "that" system switches have dead frogs so the use of a "cap" was needed to overcome that issue as well as questionable dirty spots of track.

I've wondered why one couldn't use 3 rail in a DCC format...I, myself, can envision one the outer rails having dissapeared leaving just a side and center rail- 2 rail conductivity! I think some folks are hung up on the whole "I see 3 rails so that won't work", but they forget that both outer rails are a common connection.

I've got old O scale 3 rail eninges with no sound{single pullmores}, MTH proto2 engines with sound and some bachmann On30 engines with the tsunami sound..I'd love to see a way to run all of the above of mine on a DCC controller - like my dynamis. The only flaw I can see is the current DCC control/sound boards for HO/On30 can only handle up to 2 amps max{unsustained peak} and that won't fly for an O scale engine due to the higher draw rate. I can dream of a tsunami sound board on an O scale engine and the sounds I could play with...that's all I can do for now though.

Hi Burlington,

 

You can absolutely run DCC with three rail trains.  The perfect example is Marklin which is 3 rail (stud rail) in HO.  In fact my DCC system from ESU, the ECoS II, has specific instructions on how to wire both 2 and 3 rail layouts.  I am sure you could wire an NCE or any other DCC system for 3 rail also.   Also Loksound and TCS brand of decoders can be used in "O" scale.  Just make sure you get the right one. So you can add these to your O engines. I have used them myself.

 

The issue you may have is more likely to be, what kind of power do your specific engines run on?  DCC provides DC power to the track whereas most "O" trains run on AC power. Now here are some big exceptions... MTH's line of Premier Proto 3 Engines can run on either AC or DC and has DCC functionalty built in. They are very versatile and run great.  I have their NJT ALP 46 and it runs great on DCC.  Also, it is my understanding that some of Lionel's engines made between 1979 and 1998 also had DC motors but, I am not sure of the exact dates or models.

 

To muddy the water even further, it is my understanding that most AC motors will work on DC. The type of AC motor that will not work on DC would be an induction type without a commutator and brushes. If the motor has both field and armature magnetics supplied by windings the motor should run on DC or AC. If it relies on induction, (no brushes), it will only run on AC.  But most old small cheap AC motors were brush type motors that run either on AC or DC. Now,  I am not an expert here.  I learned this from a friend when asking about some older Lionel type Lionel engines I inherited and I run DCC.  I would double check with a local repair person or someone more electric engine conversion knowledgeable before you tried one out on a DC layout.

 

So, yes you can run DCC on your O layout.  If you have MTH premier Proto 3 equipment you are already all set. For your other older engines, confirm if they run on DC or AC.  If DC, you just need to add decoders and you are off and running.  If AC, you will have to do some more homework and they may require work before being ready for DCC.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Chris

Chris, that's what I figured. Just found out that there's DCC of sorts for G scale via remote control and those engines have a high amp rate...though they're not the same set up as O scale{RC!}. Saw the other day that the new proto3's have DCC capability...and I wondered what the difference would be between my On30 Dynamis DCC CVs and simply setting the MTH proto2-on controls{lights/volume...}...might be the same format?

I would be nice to get everyone to play on the same field, so to speak, and it seems MTH is headed that way- good for them!

Oh, I have 2 old lionel pullmore diesel engines and a K-line pacific that do run on DC...would love to change the lionels to cans and add sound and control...maybe if I found some newer can motor driven trucks?...add my proto2 0-8-0 and 3 car zephyr and I could have complete control...that would be nice.  

It would be interesting to be able take an HO/On30 1000 series tsunami sound/DCC board and be able to add an external higher amp capable relay for O scale motor power switching so the amp draw wouldn't trash the board...that would make for an O scale DCC board pretty easily...just how to do it? I would think...and this can get me into trouble sometimes...that adding such a relay inline of the 4 pick up and two motor leads, from a tsumani board, "should" work...in theory. Lights and sounds wouldn't/shouldn't be an issue on an O scale unit...just the motor draw since those boards are only rated to 2amp peak. 5-10{?} amps would be needed for moderate to heavy pulling use in O scale. 

Thoughts?