Dcs vs legacy

DCS requires star wiring and it is a lot easier to do it in the beginning instead of later. It is also more of a pain.

DCS can run Legacy but you will need parts of the Legacy system for it to work.

We started with Lionel but found a number of MTH engines that we wanted. So we ended up with MTH running the Legacy equipment... and we use star wiring.

If you have any question about ever wanting to run both, I would go with MTH.

Legacy is simple, requires less work, and doesn’t require Barry’s Book to understand.  Both systems work well. We like flexibility so we went with DCS. In these days of constant change and problems with quality control, having more options made sense to us.

Hope this helps.

Bill Webb posted:

DCS requires star wiring and it is a lot easier to do it in the beginning instead of later. It is also more of a pain. Not true, Rev L TIU no issues.  I have both systems and no star wiring, all 10's signal strength on my layout

DCS can run Legacy but you will need parts of the Legacy system for it to work.

We started with Lionel but found a number of MTH engines that we wanted. So we ended up with MTH running the Legacy equipment... and we use star wiring.

If you have any question about ever wanting to run both, I would go with MTH.

Legacy is simple, requires less work, and doesn’t require Barry’s Book to understand.  Both systems work well. We like flexibility so we went with DCS. In these days of constant change and problems with quality control, having more options made sense to us.

Hope this helps.

What kind of engines do you want to run.  Due to cost are you only limiting yourself to one or the other?  As stated above Legacy is easy.   DCS system while works can be problematic, and don't get me going on diesel lashup issues.  Legacy engines sound systems can't be beat, whistle steam is easy to operate unlike MTH whistle steam.  Quillable whistle is the same, better in Legacy but clunky to use with DCS engines.  But with that said MTH engines have been more bullet proof than Lionel of late.  So you take the good with the bad these days.

What every you decide, start out with one and plan on getting the other down the road.  You really don't want to limit yourself to just one.

Geojr posted:

to all you experienced train experts - I need some help/ advice.

i’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both.

 

if you were starting out, which would you choose - what are advantages/disadvantages of each system. No need to bash either one, just help me get started.

thanks in advance for your help

If you run MTH and Lionel, the choice is easy DCS.  You will eventually use both.  "Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated".  

Enjoy your venture.  It is a blast either way.

I'd wire with DCS in mind, though many folks have just added it to a layout with no wiring limitations and had no issues.  As for which one you should go with, which manufacturer has more of the locomotives you are interested in?

superwarp1 posted:

Bill Webb posted:

DCS requires star wiring and it is a lot easier to do it in the beginning instead of later. It is also more of a pain. Not true, Rev L TIU no issues.  I have both systems and no star wiring, all 10's signal strength on my layout

DCS can run Legacy but you will need parts of the Legacy system for it to work.

We started with Lionel but found a number of MTH engines that we wanted. So we ended up with MTH running the Legacy equipment... and we use star wiring.

If you have any question about ever wanting to run both, I would go with MTH.

Legacy is simple, requires less work, and doesn’t require Barry’s Book to understand.  Both systems work well. We like flexibility so we went with DCS. In these days of constant change and problems with quality control, having more options made sense to us.

Hope this helps.

What kind of engines do you want to run.  Due to cost are you only limiting yourself to one or the other?  As stated above Legacy is easy.   DCS system while works can be problematic, and don't get me going on diesel lashup issues.  Legacy engines sound systems can't be beat, whistle steam is easy to operate unlike MTH whistle steam.  Quillable whistle is the same, better in Legacy but clunky to use with DCS engines.  But with that said MTH engines have been more bullet proof than Lionel of late.  So you take the good with the bad these days.

What every you decide, start out with one and plan on getting the other down the road.  You really don't want to limit yourself to just one.

Totally agree with Gary in that if you can only choose 1 system over the other, decide based on the engines you have or want to acquire. Also agree with others that Legacy is very simple to set up and run. That said, I have a lot of Railking engines and appreciate the full DCS capabilities of these engines at a lower price point than Legacy equipment. 

If I had to do it over, and only with 1 system, I'd probably buy fewer engines and go with Legacy for its simplicity. Glad I don't have to make that decision though, as I really enjoy my DCS stuff, too.

One other thought, if I wasn't interested in scale stuff, and was starting all over, maybe I'd skip both Legacy and DCS and just buy LionChief engines.

It should also be noted that DCS can have problems with Atlas and K-Line TMCC engines...I recently found that out  And I totally agree...Legacy is much easier to run...DCS has way more things to remember.  ...ughhh...But I am getting old...

Review a few catalogs and see which locomotives you like.  That's the system to use. 

An alternative is to start with LionChief or LionChief+ sets and locos.  These are command control with an inexpensive, simple, very reliable system.  They will also work seamlessly on a layout with DCS, TMCC/Legacy or both in command mode (but you will have to use the LionChief/LC+ remote to control them).

Well, LC and LC+ works if you want to go semi-scale, but if you're thinking scale stuff, that's not a good choice.

I utilized "home run" wiring on a 140-ft double/"over n under" loop with very consistent voltage results. When I added a yard I simply ran new wire directly to the yard. Run Legacy, Lion Chief and DCS (mainly). No problems with any so far (eight years) once I understand each system. Lion Chief with BlueTooth is a great way to start. Also the universal remote is handy for three engines.

Wally

Not sure asking the question of "which manufacturer has more of the engines you're interested in" is all that helpful, actually. Both Lionel and MTH make or have made practically every conceivable engine you could want. For simplicity of setting the system up, Legacy is significantly easier to set up, and less problematic in operation, as others have said. The point made above is a good one that all the other manufacturers' engines such as 3rd Rail and Atlas O, as well as K-Line and Weaver (no longer in business but a lot of these engines are around), use Lionel electronics, so Legacy would be most compatable with these if you ever decide to acquire some of those engines.

I'd also seriously consider Landsteiner's comment about going with Lionel LionChief Plus engines as a starting point. If a person is new to the hobby and doesn't want to spend a fortune, this is a smart way to go, IMHO. If you later decide to get into Legacy, the LionChief engines are compatable. They will run on MTH systems, also. If choosing something in the LionChief series, keep in mind that the LionChief Plus engines are a significant improvement over the regular LionChief engines. They have a cruise control system built in, which adds a lot to the operation of the engines, so I'd suggest looking at these Plus engines.

Started out in this hobby 7 yrs ago and all the systems, legacy, DCS etc. scared me to death. I was a diehard conventional, but MTH guy! Two yrs ago Steve Nelson suggested DCS WIFI and with much trepidation I tried it! Never looked back! Love it, find it easy to hook up, easy to run etc. Admittedly I have no experience with anything else! This works for me and I'm proud of myself for jumping into it! LOL

If I were starting out from scratch with a small to medium-small layout and wasn't concerned about running scale equipment and could only choose one system as the OP suggests, I would probably go with Lionel's new Lion Chief Plus 2.0 system and Bluetooth. Better detailing, sound and lighting effects, ease of installation with BT, and the ability to adapt to full Legacy later on, if desired.

If you have cost constraints.  DCS Will be far less expensive for engines and cars. 

Legacy

While I have both, if I had to start over, and knowing what I know now, I would go with Legacy only. When DCS works its good and fun, but I have found it is still inconsistent after all these years and software upgrades. I'd even go as far to say if it hadn't been for the late Barry Broskowitz's time and patience, and others as well, helping me via the DCS forum, I'd probably would've given it up and sold all my MTH engines years ago.

"If you have cost constraints.  DCS Will be far less expensive for engines and cars. "

I disagree and would suggest LionChief/LionChief+ will be far less expensive than DCS/PS3 or Legacy for locos,  and then there is no need to invest $300 in Legacy or DCS for command control until later or never. 

Rolling stock (cars) are not relevant as all three rail O gauge rolling stock from all manufacturers will operate fine together and with any manufacturer's locos and electronics.  If, for example, you desire simple,  inexpensive Menard's rolling stock, you will save a lot of money over any of Lionel, MTH or Atlas,  and operation should be fine whether you are using Legacy, DCS, LionChief or conventional.

One other point if you decide to go with DCS you will need a smart phone or tablet to operate the system as MTH is no longer producing the handheld controller.

A tough choice because of the various product offerings, but both Legacy and DCS are based on very old technology which has had a problematic history.

I have both DCS and TMCC on my layout. The reason I have both systems is MTH made the steam locomotives I wanted in their Premier line and Lionel made the diesels I wanted. When I switched from conventional running I went with both systems. I have my TMCC base hooked into the TIU with the MTH adapter cable and run everything from the DCS remote. My layout was already wired in a star pattern, as when I ran conventional I had installed blocks with on off toggles. Both systems work fine together and I get DCS signals of 10 all around my layout and no TMCC signal issues.

If possible I'd suggest both systems. I find both equally easy to use. Honestly if you read the instruction book that comes with DCS before you install it most of your questions will be answered. Neither system is hard to set up or use. Having both has the advantage of letting you run any command equipped 3 rail locomotive. If you only buy one system you'll be limiting on locomotive choices.  Buy a TIU and pick up the Base-1L or the CAB-1L/Base -1L set: http://www.lionel.com/products...command-set-6-37147/ It's cheaper than buying the full Legacy set.

I do not own DCS just Lionel Legacy.......I am going to get bashed for this but if it were me I would not buy either system and I would run my trains conventionally.......That's right just with a plain transformer. I listen to the all the advanced sounds for 5 minutes and then they begin to drive me crazy so I shut every thing off. Keep it simple and have fun instead of never ending programming your engines and getting frustrated.

NYC 428 posted:

One other point if you decide to go with DCS you will need a smart phone or tablet to operate the system as MTH is no longer producing the handheld controller.

Not sure where you got your info from...

The MTH DCS remote is still being produced, It was still listed in the most recent MTH catalog.

I am more a fan of DCS. With DCS, you can run Legacy through the DCS hand set. But, if you have Legacy and you find an MTH locomotive that interests you, you cannot run a DCS locomotive through Legacy. We added DCS to our existing, conventionally controlled layout about 10 years ago. Our layout was not wired in a star configuration and we had no trouble with DCS operation. Another advantage of DCS is that the signal to the locomotive from the DCS Track Interface Unit (TIU) goes through the track. Lionel TMCC and legacy are transmitted through the air (electronic waves) to the locomotive. Signals to a train can get skewed if one TMCC/Legacy engine is passing under an elevated track with another going over it. Also, the signal from a Lionel remote device can be lost if the train is in a long tunnel. Legacy experts, correct me if this information is incorrect. We have Lionel TMCC patched into our MTH TIU with a special cable and all TMCC engines run through DCS and are treated like DCS equipped engines. So, you do not have to know to operating systems.

An alternative that's satisfying to some including myself is the Lionel TPC in conjunction with the Lionel TMCC Command System.  This offers the operation of ALL of your O gauge/O scale engines in conventional mode while using the handheld controller.  It works very well and the engines with sounds built in will have the running sounds along with the horn & bell.  You simply address the TPC unit as if it's a locomotive with command control and it will control track voltage just like you would using a transformer.  Also, you will need to connect either a standard transformer or one of the types of available bricks to supply power to the TPC. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, LC and LC+ works if you want to go semi-scale, but if you're thinking scale stuff, that's not a good choice.

Yep.  So true!

But the OP didn't specify "scale".

breezinup posted:

Not sure asking the question of "which manufacturer has more of the engines you're interested in" is all that helpful, actually. Both Lionel and MTH make or have made practically every conceivable engine you could want. For simplicity of setting the system up, Legacy is significantly easier to set up, and less problematic in operation, as others have said. The point made above is a good one that all the other manufacturers' engines such as 3rd Rail and Atlas O, as well as K-Line and Weaver (no longer in business but a lot of these engines are around), use Lionel electronics, so Legacy would be most compatable with these if you ever decide to acquire some of those engines.

I'd also seriously consider Landsteiner's comment about going with Lionel LionChief Plus engines as a starting point. If a person is new to the hobby and doesn't want to spend a fortune, this is a smart way to go, IMHO. If you later decide to get into Legacy, the LionChief engines are compatable. They will run on MTH systems, also. If choosing something in the LionChief series, keep in mind that the LionChief Plus engines are a significant improvement over the regular LionChief engines. They have a cruise control system built in, which adds a lot to the operation of the engines, so I'd suggest looking at these Plus engines.

Excellent summary here, breezinup.  THANKS!!  

My answer - for one system as the OP specified - would be Legacy & the LionChief series (which will only get really, really good in the future).  LionChief uses a simple remote, Bluetooth (MTH does not have this option), etc.

Legacy gets the award for being the simplest, least complicated "complete" remote system.  Certainly my choice.   

I moved up from HO to O gauge 3 rail about 7-8 years ago. I thought I did some good research and decided on MTH DCS. I ordered a bunch of track and switches months before I started building my layout. Even bought 2 MTH steam engines.

My first mistake was buying all the MTH Realtrax. I found them difficult to fit my track plan, even though I thought I had it planned out correctly. In my opinion, I think these are cheaply made. After struggling with laying the track, I was not happy from day 1. 

It was 2 or 3 years later, that I removed all of it and replaced it with Gargrave track and Ross switches. Yes, they are more costly, but you can not begin to compare the quality and the flexibility.

Also at the time, I purchased the MTH DCS system and had a lot of issues with getting it up and running. Barry's book was a valuable investment and did help a lot, but there were still lots of unanswered question. 

At the time I upgraded the track, I purchased a Lionel Legacy system and found it much better than the DCS system. Easy of installation and operation.

As for engines, my first 4 were MTH, which I still have. But since then, I buy only TMCC or Legacy; Lionel, Atlas, Sunset 3rd Rail, and K-Line engines. I find that I run my TMCC/Legacy 95% of the time. I do like many of the MTH freight and passenger cars better than Lionel.

Don't get me wrong, aside from the track and remote issues with DCS, they do have some nice engines and some nice features. But overall, for me it's Lionel TMCC/Legacy. 

It's like classic car collectors. Either you love Chevy and hate Ford or you love Ford and hate Chevy.

RAY

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'd wire with DCS in mind, though many folks have just added it to a layout with no wiring limitations and had no issues.  As for which one you should go with, which manufacturer has more of the).

What locomotives you are interested in?

There are a lot of very good answers in this thread, but this one sticks out!

Wire the layout with DCS in mind, even if you plan on going with Legacy.  It will make things much easier if you ever decide that you want to run both.

Regarding starting with DCS or Legacy, do you want to run MTH engines or others?

I have Legacy for my current carpet layout as, aside from my Lionel Legacy locomotives, I have 3rd Rail (Sunset), Atlas, and K-Line locomotives all with TMCC (the forerunner to Legacy).

Jim

Legacy really is as easy as it gets. It really does not get more plug an play that this. 

DCS has more options, and more functions. There are more sub menus and added hidden features. 

I have both and they work great together.

I would suggest you decide what locomotives you really want … then pick that operating system.

Geojr posted:

to all you experienced train experts - I need some help/ advice.

i’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both.

 

if you were starting out, which would you choose - what are advantages/disadvantages of each system. No need to bash either one, just help me get started.

thanks in advance for your help

Real simple.  DCS or Legacy now

Next York or MTH/Lionel catalog, You will buy the other.  Sometimes MTH or Lionel will do a model better than the other.  That’s the game changer.  Having both to enjoy is freedom on the rails.  Just an opinion.  I’m sure the responses to a simple question has left you perplexed.  At the end of the day, whatever you do is the right call.  Have fun!

H1000 posted:

NYC 428 posted:

One other point if you decide to go with DCS you will need a smart phone or tablet to operate the system as MTH is no longer producing the handheld controller.

Not sure where you got your info from...

The MTH DCS remote is still being produced, It was still listed in the most recent MTH catalog.

It's listed, but it's probably it's last gasp.  They can no longer get the thumbwheel encoder part, so without that I don't think they'll be building the remote.  I suspect they're not going to re-engineer it to keep producing it.

J Daddy posted:

Legacy really is as easy as it gets. It really does not get more plug an play that this. 

DCS has more options, and more functions. There are more sub menus and added hidden features. 

I have both and they work great together.

I would suggest you decide what locomotives you really want … then pick that operating system.

Likewise. They both work but I can't think of too many engines that Lionel has made that MTH hasn't. On the other hand MTH has made many more engines that Lionel hasn't and MTH has an edge on detail. 

How difficult DCS will be depends a lot on how large your layout is. 12'x12'  and smaller and its pretty much plug it in and run. Another factor is how close are you to a train store and what do they sell? They would be able to help with whatever they offer.

Pete

I bought Legacy because it’s simple to install and I wanted whistle steam in my steamers. There is so much redundancy between MTH and Lionel in regard to diesels, I just buy Legacy diesels, too. I always thought I would add DCS at some point down the road, but seven years into my scale layout, I haven’t found any reason to do so. 

I am puzzled by all the answers referring to owning dozens of engines, so making yourself compatible to both by buying both systems, and working your way through the the learning on two systems.  Realistically- how many engines might you buy??  Enough that you need that many choices (Lionel, Atlas, MTH etc.)??  

Legacy (or TMCC) are easiest and less fiddly from what I know.  Lionel Legacy,  plus all of the Lionel TMCC locomotives offered over the 18 or so past years (including Atlas and 3rd Rail), seems like would give you plenty of choices.  Add in some LionChief Plus 2.0 and it would take a very understanding wife and a pretty amazing budget to need even more choices.

In my experience, most regular train enthusiasts  are limited on funds to at least some degree, and space also to some degree.  Then there are those 75-80+ freight cars, dozens of buildings....

YES- I now there are exceptions- one guy I know of spent $ 60K last year on top of $ 40K over the previous 2 years, just on new engines. He has no layout to run them on.  His daughter will be able to make it up by just carrying a few more student loans, I am sure.  His (now) ex-wife was very unhappy, however.  

Just to add a little bit of technical information about the two systems. Legacy/TMCC is a unidirectional radio based system using the either outside rail as an antenna. DCS is a bidirectional data based system similar to Ethernet. The engines confirm commands sent to them back to the TIU through the track. That's where the recommendation for star wiring comes in.  MTH occasionally releases software/sound updates to their engines.

Mike Wyatt posted:

I am puzzled by all the answers referring to owning dozens of engines, so making yourself compatible to both by buying both systems, and working your way through the the learning on two systems.  Realistically- how many engines might you buy??  Enough that you need that many choices (Lionel, Atlas, MTH etc.)??  

 

I have 10 locomotives, 7 diesel locomotives with TMCC (6 Lionel, 1 MTH Premier converted to TMCC) and 3 steam locomotives with DCS (MTH Premier PS2 3V). I don't plan on buying anymore but to get the most fun out of the locomotives I have I installed both DCS and TMCC on my layout. So it is possible to not have that many locomotives and kinda need both systems. 

Also as for why locomotives from both manufacturers well Lionel does not make a scale Santa Fe 3460 class Hudson or Santa Fe 5011 class Texas, but MTH does. 

H1000

You should ask your local dealer or better yet try and buy a new one.  I know for a fact that MTH no longer wants to produce them.

On my layout, I run conventional, DCS, TMCC, LionChief Plus, MTH WiFi, and Lionel Bluetooth.  Bottom line - there are advantages to each system as well as choices of engines from both MTH and Lionel.  All are easy to use and I am very happy with being able to use all of them!

I think that MTH makes a very fine product, in some cases more accurately scaled, and at generally a lower price than Lionel.  Both product lines in terms of service to me personally have been excellent.  I really see no real overall quality difference- both get issues, and both have PERFECT new locos, and not so perfect from time to time.   

But then there is that "no handheld" thing w/ MTH- which to ME is significant ...

...(but I would buy a rotary dial cell phone if they made one). 

What a loaded question.

Legacy = simple install, solid performance.  No hassle.  Engines are more expensive, but sound is unbeatable.

DCS = more complicated install, hiccups, can be a hassle to maintain. Engines can be significantly cheaper.

I think it will be down to budget.  If you go legacy, engines will be more expensive, but that could be a good thing.  You won't spend as much.  DCS engines can be so cheap sometimes you don't realize how many you buy and it adds up!

Personally I just disliked the DCS remote and its horrible thumbwheel and menu buttons.  The Legacy remote was just so easy and intuitive to use, but that's me.

I tried both systems and made a decision to go only Legacy.