While streamlined, were these Hudsons ever assigned to other trains besides the 20th Century Limited? Would these lead secondary trains like the Lake Shore Limited, etc?
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I know "Empire State Express 1941 New York Central" on facebook has a picture on their page of a Dreyfuss pulling the Empire State Express when one of the ESE Hudsons was in the shops for repairs during world war ii.
@ogauge1217 posted:While streamlined, were these Hudsons ever assigned to other trains besides the 20th Century Limited? Would these lead secondary trains like the Lake Shore Limited, etc?
You might contact the New York Central Historical Society, and ask them. Also check their website for possible photos.
I'd have to go look to see when the Central had the E7s delivered to take over the the Century vs when the Hudson were de streamlined. But speaking of trawling the NYCSHS photo archives...
@ogauge1217 posted:While streamlined, were these Hudsons ever assigned to other trains besides the 20th Century Limited? Would these lead secondary trains like the Lake Shore Limited, etc?
Yes, while still streamlined, one Dreyfuss was assigned to Mercury service. (5445 ) The other streamlined Hudson in “sort of “ Dreyfuss streamlining in Mercury Service was 5344. However, 5344 was shrouded in house, by NYC craftsmen, and was not part of the original batch of Dreyfuss engines delivered by Schenectady……..
* Some Dreyfuss engines would’ve been used as stand in power on lessor trains, but this would’ve been a substitute roll, and not a regular assignment…
Pat
@naresar posted:I'd have to go look to see when the Central had the E7s delivered to take over the the Century vs when the Hudson were de streamlined. But speaking of trawling the NYCSHS photo archives...
Before going fully over to diesel, Niagara’s would’ve bumped Hudsons on Premier varnish, and high profile trains. However, given the high number of Hudsons the Central rostered, ( remember, only one was ever lost to a wreck ) it wasn’t surprising to find Hudsons & even Mohawks pulling priority trains alongside Niagaras, in 2nd, or even 3rd or 4th segments. Traffic would dictate how many locomotives were needed in a particular region dependent on demand.
Pat
@naresar posted:I'd have to go look to see when the Central had the E7s delivered to take over the the Century vs when the Hudson were de streamlined. But speaking of trawling the NYCSHS photo archives...
Well the first photo cited shows Dreyfus clad 5448 pulling the "New England States". I guess that answers the OP's question.
Thanks Pat. I knew some of the Niagaras were doing some serious mileage in passenger service, it never occurred to me that there was enough of them doing that it was regularly bumping the Hudsons into a supporting role.
@harmonyards posted:Yes, while still streamlined, one Dreyfuss was assigned to Mercury service. (5445 ) The other streamlined Hudson in “sort of “ Dreyfuss streamlining in Mercury Service was 5344. However, 5344 was shrouded in house, by NYC craftsmen, and was not part of the original batch of Dreyfuss engines delivered by Schenectady……..
* Some Dreyfuss engines would’ve been used as stand in power on lessor trains, but this would’ve been a substitute roll, and not a regular assignment…
Pat
Pat, did either of the Mercury Dreyfuss Hudson's have a PT Tender with them that was shrouded, or did they get that before and after shrouding? I do know 5344 did have a PT Tender without shrouding, but no clue on timeline for that. Figure best time to ask about it.
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:Pat, did either of the Mercury Dreyfuss Hudson's have a PT Tender with them that was shrouded, or did they get that before and after shrouding? I do know 5344 did have a PT Tender without shrouding, but no clue on timeline for that. Figure best time to ask about it.
I don't believe there was ever a NYC PT that had shrouds. If you look at the design of the PT they are actually rounded inward toward the bottom. This would have made it difficult to add shrouds, to them. The standard 6 axle tenders had "square" sides. Look at some pictures to see what I mean.
BTW The first PT tender for a Hudson was in 1943.
5344 was re-streamlined in 1939 to the bullet nose configuration.
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:Pat, did either of the Mercury Dreyfuss Hudson's have a PT Tender with them that was shrouded, or did they get that before and after shrouding? I do know 5344 did have a PT Tender without shrouding, but no clue on timeline for that. Figure best time to ask about it.
No PT’s assigned to Mercury service Dave. Mercury Service was all coach, first from Detroit to Cleveland, then expanded Detroit to Chicago. However, as things go inside the oval at the Central, never say never. Mercury was a popular service, so sometimes many segments. If there was a need for additional runs, and a PT equipped engine happened to be on the ready tracks waiting for an assignment, it most certainly could’ve gotten the call,……The prettiest train sets we want to envision on our layouts, and in the publicity films of the Central’s in house film dept. are just that, made for public image. The actuality on the Central was anything goes,…..There’s a great story on the NYCHS website of an H10 being used as stand in power on a passenger train, and how trying to get the Mike up to speed was a jolting ride, then she smoothed out at 60 mph, …..
Pat
@MainLine Steam posted:I don't believe there was ever a NYC PT that had shrouds. If you look at the design of the PT they are actually rounded inward toward the bottom. This would have made it difficult to add shrouds, to them. The standard 6 axle tenders had "square" sides. Look at some pictures to see what I mean.
BTW The first PT tender for a Hudson was in 1943.
5344 was re-streamlined in 1939 to the bullet nose configuration.
I should have said in the Dreyfuss paint scheme. I was on lunch and was rattling quickly. We all know that the ESE had the black PT Tender trailing behind when needed, but I guess that would be the only oddball thing overall.
@harmonyards posted:No PT’s assigned to Mercury service Dave. Mercury Service was all coach, first from Detroit to Cleveland, then expanded Detroit to Chicago. However, as things go inside the oval at the Central, never say never. Mercury was a popular service, so sometimes many segments. If there was a need for additional runs, and a PT equipped engine happened to be on the ready tracks waiting for an assignment, it most certainly could’ve gotten the call,……The prettiest train sets we want to envision on our layouts, and in the publicity films of the Central’s in house film dept. are just that, made for public image. The actuality on the Central was anything goes,…..There’s a great story on the NYCHS website of an H10 being used as stand in power on a passenger train, and how trying to get the Mike up to speed was a jolting ride, then she smoothed out at 60 mph, …..
Pat
Thanks Pat, you know me, I like a little imagination on some things, and a dose of reality.
I should have said in the Dreyfuss paint scheme. I was on lunch and was rattling quickly. We all know that the ESE had the black PT Tender trailing behind when needed, but I guess that would be the only oddball thing overall.
The first PT1 tender built by NYC at Beech Grove for 5453 wore the 2 Tone Gray and White Passenger Paint. 3 more PT1 tenders followed. 50 PT4 tenders were built by Lima in 1944 and 1945. Not sure exactly how many had the passenger paint scheme as opposed to black.
ESE 5426 was "bumped" to Mercury Detroit-Chicago run for a while. Pictures of that service show it with a conventional 6 axle tender. PT was probably not needed for that shorter run.
But Pat said it best. So run what you like, it probably was correct for at least some runs.
On page 91 of Classic Trains magazine's recent "New York Central Remembered" special issue, there's a photo showing J-1e 5344 in Dreyfus streamlining pulling the Detroit-Chicago Twilight Limited in November 1939.
@wjstix posted:On page 91 of Classic Trains magazine's recent "New York Central Remembered" special issue, there's a photo showing J-1e 5344 in Dreyfus streamlining pulling the Detroit-Chicago Twilight Limited in November 1939.
Beings 5344 worked lines west, & the Twilight Limited was Chicago-Detroit, it very well could’ve been subbed in for that role on numerous occasions. Her main job was Mercury service, specifically, the Detroit to Chicago leg, So probably not uncommon for her to pick up a side hustle and pull the limited back to Detroit, ……the limited was an all parlor car, with a diner, and later coaches added …..
Pat
You'll want to check out the book "Michigan Central Trackside" by Geoffrey H. Doughty featuring photos by Emery Gulash. There are some color photos of the Dreyfuss Hudson pulling the Detroit-Chicago Mercury from the early 1940's. 
I'm not positive, but I believe that the "Southwestern Limited" (Essentially the St, Louis version of the 20th Century) could have been assigned Dreyfuss Hudsons.
But since the Century routinely ran in multiple sections, including the "Advanced 20th Century Limited" The 10 Streamlined Hudsons may have been kept busy on that run.
I remember reading that all sections would operate via the Lakefront line, bypassing Cleveland Union Station. Mail and express were conveyed between CUT and the lakefront by a special local train and only the last section of the Century would stop for headend work.
This would imply that the engines went straight through Cleveland, instead of cutting off and on at Collinwood and Linndale, or vice versa, while the trains were hauled through CUT by P-1a electric motors.
I think the engines were changed and turned at Buffalo in both directions, Buffalo being the nominal midway point of the run.
***Update***
I did some research and found out that the New England States wasn't streamlined until 1949 and new diesels were ordered to handle the train, so scratch the Dreyfuss Hudson idea.
