I just acquired the Texas Special 38100 and put it on the track. Although the command control works (the tmcc controller) it doesn't "crawl" like my other engines. It just goes fast! Is there something wrong or did the early models not have speed control?
Thanks,
Rob
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Not all have speed control. I have one that does and 2 that do not. If by fast you mean hard to control at low speed that is normal for many and it depends a little on the type of motor. If you mean you have no control of the speed that is a problem . Don
No surprise there, that's the model with the Pulmore motors. They don't have the low speed control that can motors have.
That F-3 has two Pullmor motors, as gunrunnerjohn notes. Pullmors generally run smoother and smoother (and capable of lower speeds) as they get more and more broken in. Perhaps yours don't have much run time on them.
Another major improvement in TMCC Pullmor low speed operation frequently comes when they are operated with the Legacy system. If you have a chance to run them with a Legacy system, try it. The difference in low speed operation can be quite significant.
Thanks for the replies everyone. My Legacy controller is in the shop. So when I get it back I will see if the Legacy makes a big difference. Right now it starts slow and then after about two to three feet it just rockets!
Rob W
In a lot of ways, that's the nature of the beast. The Pulmore motors seem to get more torque when they start rotating, more so than can motors. Of course, anything that's Legacy with a can motor also has cruise control, which really makes a huge difference in low speed performance.
That set is pretty old, as it still has the LCRU2. Truthfully, I think it's got to be broken in by now, I'm not anticipating any huge performance increases with time. 
One thing that may help is to pull the motors and lube the gearboxes and the motor armature bearings at both ends. If that hasn't been done, the grease in there has to be pretty solid!
You should notice an improvement in operation with the Legacy base And CAB2. The original TMCC equipments use of relative speed steps is not thebest way to control the open frame motors. While these can't do "cruise control" they can exhibit very nice low speed performance and smooth acceleration with the prper power supply. I have the PWC version of the Texas Special and I was pretty impressed with how well it ran in conventional with a TPC providing power. The CAB2 can't quite match the TPC but it is noticeably better than the CAB1. BTW, make sure you set the stall speed. This helps a lot.
Isn't the 38100 the same set you have Chuck?
When I frs returned to the hobby in late 08 and started reading the forum, seems I remember several threads abut someone developing a cruise for the open frame motors. I followed it for awhile because I still had 5 or 6 Lionel F3s that I was quite 'attached to' and wanted to run.
Jon was trying to adapt the cruise commander to an open frame motor. I think he reported back the issue was the additional "noise" of passing through the field coil and the issues of how a series wound motor is designed in terms of what you would be able to measure in the way of back emf.
It must be that time of year. Here is a thread from May 2012 about "cruise" control. If you scroll down about 2/3 of the way there are postings by Dale and DennisM on why the AC version of the Cruise Commander didn't come out and why/how far a tech sensor on the PullMore got before getting shelved.
Has anyone added the Cruise Commander boards from Electric RR? I didn't know if that was an option.
Yes, the Cruise Commander is a popular option but the caveat is you must have can motors to operate.
Has anyone added the Cruise Commander boards from Electric RR? I didn't know if that was an option.
It's not an option with your locomotive.
Congrats on your new pullmor equipped engine. Here are some tips to breaking your ac motor in. Take off the shell, it may be only 2 screws to open her up. Oil the pullmor well, fill it up. Oil the wheels where shown in the manual and scrape off any old grease in the gears. Run it solo, forward and reverse at varying speeds. Then incrementally add more cars and repeat running at different speeds. Practice running slow with a load. This takes a good 4-5 hours to do right. Let it run. Then, oil the motor again and repeat next day. When properly broken in you should be able to pull 20 cars and she will show much better slow speed performance. You can then adjust the stall feature to your liking. Oh yeah, and check the momentum setting. It will react quicker to commands at the L setting. If it is set at H, the response is slower. That in itself could be your problem if you are not aware the momentum is set at H. Have fun and enjoy.
Well I received my Legacy controller back last night and it still just barely goes and then boom takes off like a rocket. I did all the steps everyone told me to do except set the stall. So I will do that when I get home from work. Any "tricks" I need to know when setting the stall that will help or just go by the instructions in the book?
Just follow the book instructions, they work fine.
Frank Timko can convert it to can motors, and then you can put cruise control in it.
DC motor would be my choice as well.
Break it in.
Rob,
I had the same problem you have with your 38100 PWC Texas Special. I would turn on the track power, the engine would creep and then take off like a rocket. It did this in the conventional mode and in the TMCC mode. What I did to correct this was to reprogram or readdress the engine in the TMCC mode. I moved the program/run switch to program, readdressed the engine number to one I had selected (in my case 45), turned off the power and moved the switch back to run. The engine has been running fine ever since. For some reason, the engine lost it's original identity. Once its identity was reestablished, the problems disappeared.
Try this and let me know if it works for you.
Bob
Well it didn't work. 
I didn't see any loose wires so the only left is the board?
I'm sure there are unit to unit variations with AC motors, but you're not going to get anything like the speed control that you get with can motors. I think you're experiencing "The Way It Works" here.
I'll renew my recommendation for the Frank Timko can motor conversion and an ERR Cruise Commander. You'll be MUCH happier with the result.
I believe the B unit is independent in this set with it's own TMCC receiver, which should allow the sound to continue to function. I don't see a tether, and since the B unit has a wheel sensor and it's own TMCC receiver, one assumes it's really totally independent.
Rob,
Sorry to hear it didn't work. There is another possibility. The R2LC board could be malfunctioning. It may not be allowing communication between the engine and the command base. I had this happen with a Lionel Alco C-420. Replaced the board and the problem disappeared on that engine. The Electric Railroad Company sells them (R4LC) for $40.00. If you have another TMCC engine with modular boards, you may be able to swap R2LC boards to see if the problem follows the board. If the above doesn't work, I'm stumped.
Bob
Maybe a video of what you're seeing would be useful. I'm reading that you simply don't have good low speed control.
The locomotive is not taking off at full throttle, right? It runs TMCC fine at speed, just not at low speed is what I'm reading.
Is this engine a NOS or used. I would clean, oil, and lube to begin with. I would try a re-programming following the instructions listed here:
http://www.lionel.com/ForTheHo...oreTMCCfunctions.pdf
Also try this,
Power track, address engine, press set turn knob slowly until the engine just starts to move and then press set again. Try running.
Bill
I had thought he already tried setting the stall speed. I'm getting the feeling this is a case of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Pullmor motors and no speed control, its the worst of both worlds and typical of "old fashioned" pullmor powered locos, not to mention the HUGE voltage draw.
Thats how they run, and no matter how much "break in time" you have they will never touch a can motored loco for slow speed and smooth performance.
I avoid anything with a pullmor motor like the plague. I respect the guys who like them for their postwar style operating characteristics, but those motors are the worst in my book.
Robert W.: A while back, when Lionel Trains were still MADE IN AMERICA, there was a problem within the pullmore motored F-3 diesels. While your description of what is happening is not entirely clear; you may want to try these helpful fixes.
At one time, the driver/receiver board was mounted over the fuel tank at the sill height of the frame. This placed the receiver section of the board right next to the rear pullmore motor stator field. The eddie currents of the field caused some difficulties with the reception/processing of the signals sent to the unit. One fix was to lower the receiver/driver board deeper into the fuel tank, to get it further away from the motor field. Some of the driver/receiver boards were supported by a tall plastic stanchion at one end and there was a multipule holed heatsink at the other with the board mounted in the upper holes with nut and bolt. You can unbolt and lower the driver/receiver in the heatsink and shorten the plastic stanchion at the other end. This will move the receiver further from the offending range of the motor.
If this does not help or has already been done by the factory, then an additional item can be added. A small tin L-shaped shield is mounted at the rear edge of the fuel tank at the sill level between the motor and the receiver/driver board. You will see an opening for a switch with two screw holes that can be used to attach the shield. You only need a small lip to mount it, but it should extend up about 1" high. This will help shield the receiver from interference from the motor field. These were factory designed fixes for those who experienced difficulty controlling their diesel.
Again, as was stated by others before, proper lubrication and a good run-in period will always help the pullmore motored diesel perform better. Hope this helps. Dennis M.
Rob,
The way I have interpreted you engine's symptom(s) is as follows:
1. Put the engine on the track.
2. Turn on the power and address the engine through the CAB1.
3. Start the engine in the forward direction turning the red throttle knob.
After that point, do you continue throttling up and the engine just runs fast or do you not continue throttling up and the engine takes off on its own?
Bob
I will turn the wheel... it will begin to creep and then when I give it enough juice to go it just takes off and if I slow it way down it will just stop like it's not getting a signal? If I try to go slow it will not go very far at all. Chuck has been emailing me some suggestions. About all I have left is making sure the boards are seeded good enough. I did set up a 3-4 foot test track with my tmcc controller and a cw-80 and it ran fine!
If it runs fine on a test track, maybe you are having signal issues. That normally causes TMCC stuff to stop, not take off, but who knows.
I think it's time to take this to another layout and see how it behaves there.
Take the time and break the engine in. Lube and oil it and run it.
I see William beating the drum repeatedly for a "break-in", so I have a question.
Is this a new locomotive, or did you buy it used? If it's well used, I will suggest that the "break-in" is a moot point.
Yes this is a used engine.
I don't see the "break-in" as useful here, one would presume that it's "broken-in" by now.
Obviously, the advice to properly lube it is good advice, but as far as the control issues, I'd continue to work on other options.
Ok, I'll let it go. I have my own ideas about things, but I've been advised that isn't useful here. Fair enough, but I'm not so sure telling him to replace the pullmor with a can motor is the best advice. What does that cost? Besides that, I wouldn't do it just out of principle.
The engine on my Marines missile launch set used to take off after running loops for a while. Just by itself to top speed till it flew off the track. I set the max speed for it and solved the problem. This issue is different, but I ask the question, can a sensor be kicking in or reading something which makes an engine take off without a signal from a Cab1/2?
Well, "breaking in" a well used locomotive would probably not prove much, I hope we can agree on that. 
As far as considering the can motor replacement the "best advice", I don't believe I ever said that. I did say that it should result in a large improvement in low speed performance, and I stand by that judgment. I don't know anyone that will seriously compare the low speed control of the AC motor to can motors. I'd be glad to have a low speed runoff if there is disagreement on that point.
There is no "sensor" that would result in this issue, the LCRU2 is a pretty simple system. One possibility is the motor driver on the LCRU2 is failing and causing the issue. There's no real way to determine that without looking at it, at least I don't know of a way.
I think a video of very slowly turning up the throttle would be useful to see exactly what reaction is actually happening might be useful.
This is what the PWC version can do with a CAB-2 and Legacy base in terms of "creep". It is not as smooth as a flywheel equipped can motored unit but it's not bad. Main issue is the "growl" of the motors. The worst engines are the can motors inside the trucks in terms of performance these are very light weight and much harder to run slow.
OK, I give up. The two other video's will be in separate posts.
Access to this requires an OGR Forum Supporting Membership
