Erie K5 USRA heavy pacifics

I don't believe I have ever heard of an Erie RR passenger steam locomotive in any color but black.  It may be a discoloration in the photo, because the more I look the more blueish tints I see.  It's a rather dirty engine, and that may play a part in the various shades seen here.  Beautiful photo!

Most definitely black, with yellow lettering/logo.  It appears however that the sides of the running boards have been painted white or metallic silver. I note your British spelling of "color" - the vast majority of 20th Century steam power in the US was basic black, with only rare exceptions, such as the Jersey Central's "Blue Comet" locos. Some railroads coated the smokebox with a light-colored heat resistant coating such as graphite, or metallic silver paint.

This appears to be a print from a Kodachrome slide.  Original Kodachrome tended to emphasize the reflection of blue sky on black objects.

Hi guys, thanks for the feedback I'd have thought all black too Kent ,but, I have noted since posting this question that some O gauge models in Erie colourschemes are indeed painted in what looks like black or dark navy on cab and tender /undercarriage but the boilers are in that same kinda mettallic looking light blue that was used on some of the old American 10 wheelers and on some Canadion pacific steam. ??? the plot thickens.

Also if you look at that K5 picture I posted, the difference between the boiler and the cab is quite distinct-seeming for it to be a trick of light ??  cheers  DAVY  

Hi again guys, what do you make of this Kent ?  Cheers DAVY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpM4f2ofnqs&feature=relmfu

Erie ran 1 block from my house along side the B&O and the only color I ever remember was black with the Yellow, even the transition colors remained black & yellow as shown in this 1949 photo of the Pacific Express here in Warren, Ohio but I dont think you can argue that your photo shows that particular Locomotive sporting a two color blue livery.

Someone correct me if I am wrong....  The painted portion of the engine is just a thin metal sheeting.  The grey, front of the boiler is actual casting which was rubbed with graphite.

MTH has done Erie engines with the light blue boiler sheeting.  Many railroads painted this part of the engine something other than black.

That K5 is beautiful!

Dave 

The blue on the MTH Triplex is a simuation of "Russia Iron," a maleable sheet metal used in the old days for it's resistance to corroision.  It was usually unpainted on early locomotives using it.  I can't say if it was actually used on the Triplexes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_iron

I recall an article in RMC many years ago stating the color could have a different hue depending on how it was processed.

Rusty

Hi Guys, I might try and contact MTH and ask if they have any info on Erie colourschemes./why they produced ther triplex in that colour mix. Thanks for the iterest and input  cheers  DAVY

The "boiler" you see on any steam locomotive is not the boiler steel! It's just plain old sheet metal, with about 3" of insulation between it and the actual boiler shell.

As for Erie steam locomotives, they were all black, with black trim and black pin striping.  

Yeah it's black, it's just fading, soot, dirt and general grime making it appear blue.

Hi guys,

          Just wondered. However,as a B&O fan I spent ages trying to pin down the colours of B&O P7 pacifics.In the case of one for example engine 5300 (now at the B&O museum) ,there are pictures of it in its last years of working in which you would swear it was black,but in fact it never was as other clearer pictures and videos from the same time proved. It was indeed blue and reitired in its blue enamel guise. Cheers  DAVY    

Davy and all:

The B&O 5300 was indeed blue when was retired in 1957. First of the P-7 class, it had been originally named George Washington, the first President of the US.

However as a display piece at the B&O Museum by 1960, it was repainted to its original 1927 colors of B&O coach olive with gold and red striping. It also had its name restored.

B&O discontinued green livery for BandO Blue on the P-7 class during the 1930s, as more passenger equipment began appearing in all blue or blue and gray. Also at that time, the presidential names were removed.

The 5300 was the least modified of all the P-7s in B&Os fleet of 20 such locomotives. This made it the most 'original' of the lot when selected for the Museum's collection.

I'd like to add as well, that locomotives painted black can indeed have a bluish cast to their hue. If they had been recently painted, the black would shine enough toreflect the sky, much like a recently waxed black automobile did.

At the other end of that spectrum, black can weather to a shade of very dark gray with a hint of blue as well. Some of that depends on what else besides lampblack was used to as pigment in the paint used. 

Then too, be very careful of colors you see in rail fan picture books. Most of the time,

publishers 'cook' or enhance the photographed colors to make them 'pop' with a sharper hue and contrast than they would have had if seen in person.

EdB

Tainted photo or not - This is one good-looking locomotive!  It appears much more 'massive' and squat than most Pacifics we see too. Probably the camera angle and foreshortening.

I'd like a model of this one in 'blue'...

Hi Guys, I do know that the K5 class were the original USRA heavy pacifics.Issued only to the ERIE ,though other roads had similar . The B&O(P7) ,Southern(Ps4), C&EI, and a good few more had very similar heavy pacifics. Many model manufacturers in HO and O produce USRA heavypacific models and paint them up as B&O P7s and Southern Ps4s etc etc., but although similar they are not accurate for anything else than an ERIE k5 in original USRA build format. Who knows maybe this ERIE K5 was turned out in Russian iron blue and black.Certainly would have looked good !  DAVY

Davy and all,

Making Russia iron for boiler sheathing was rather lengthy, labor intensive and fairly expensive. However when done right, the thin iron sheets came out with a rather corrision resistant colored coating on both sides. In Russia, it had been used for roofing on small houses.  In the mid 19th century it was used on highly decorated passenger locomotives of that era.

By the end of the 19th century, Russia iron was becoming an extra cost item if desired for boiler jacketing. In the interest of railway companies reducing costs wherever possible, it gradually fell into disuse. I think it doubful that this expensive 'accessory' would have been used on the large Erie Triplex locomotives. By WW I, the use of Russia iron for boiler jacketing for locomotives was rather much forgotten. And any earlier 19th century 'tea pots' still running probably had plain, painted jackets by then as well.

One must be careful on how some companies market their model locomotives. For them, often color is what sells whether its correct or not. As for blue steam locos, I seem to recall MTH once marketed a 4-6-6-4 Challenger for B&O in blue.

A 'never was' by all counts.

Ed

MTH offered the WM 4-6-6-4 in B&O but it was black. 

You might be thinking of the green GN 4-6-6-4.  MTH offered the NP Z-6 in a total of eight catalog numbers.  They offered two rail and three rail versions of locomotives lettered for the NP, SP&S and GN with two schemes for the GN.  The GN versions came in black and also in the Glacier Park paint scheme with a light olive colored boiler jacket.  No definitive proof exists that the GN challengers were ever painted in the Glacier Park scheme but it turned out to be the most popular version offered and without them orders may have been insufficient to get the locomotive into production.

The "correct" black 2 rail GN Z-6 might be the rarest MTH item ever produced.  There may only be a single locomotive.

Sometimes modelers like to have what their favorite railroad should have done even if we know the facts were otherwise.

Davy

I concur with the Erie experts who say that the photo is of a gloss black locomotive reflecting the sky on a sunny day.

GN DID paint some passenger engines green, didn't they?  (AS did Southern, but I think GN's was darker.)

As did D&RGW.

ChipR

For the first 11 years of my life, I watched Erie steamers passing me daily.  I never saw anything but black.  BTW, the fireman in that photo is Bob Struck, who, when I was in engine service on EL, was a fellow engineer.

Lee

Thats fascinating Lee. How do you know that the loco driver was the guy you say , did crews stick to the one loco ,or are you familiar with that photo and its location etc., not doubting you for a minute ,just wondering what else you might be able to tell us about the photo. You say you were on the EL ,I take it thats the "Erie Lackawanna".

That was an amalgamation that took place circ 1960 ? is that right ?, so did you serve on steam ,or were you always on diesels as I understood that steam was gone on the Erie by 1953. Don't know about Lackawanna steam though?  Thanks for the input though. Great talkin to you.   Cheers  DAVY  

Did the railroads still have engine wipers at this late stage in the game?  Perhaps it was the oil or kerosene they wiped on the boiler jacketing that gave off the bluish tint in the right angle of light.  

I noticed that since there is no such color as true black in paint, that it is a result of various tints. And when this paint on a display locomotive breaks down, the bluish rainbow coloring of the oil starts to dominate.  Granted, this is a running locomotive and not one sitting outside in all types of weather. But if it was due for a paint job the week after this photo was taken, that might explain the bluish black that only comes to light in a photograph.  Too crazy an idea?

Engine wipers were used up to the last day of steam. In later years, instead of hand wiping an entire locomotive, the running gear (wheels, rods, etc.) would be cleaned with high pressure hot water mixed with kerosene or steam. This cleaned away dirt, grime and spent gerase from the exposed machinery. Boilers and tenders usually got a wash down with detergent and hot water applied with large mop-like brooms,

then rinsed off. The cleaning incldued the cab interior and windows as well. During WW II many women were employed by the railroads as engine wipers and cleaners.

After cleaning, a locomotive was inspected. First, the engineer's report would be examined to see if there were any problems from the last run needing immediate attantion. Then, a multi-point inspection was done as outlined in each railroad's rules for each specific class of locomotive.

Any repairs or adjustments needed would be made. Finally the locomotive would be fully lubricated and greased (another job done by women during WW II). The water in the tender would be topped up. The coal load was refreshed and the sand box topped off.

The locomotive was then moved to a 'ready track' by the hostler, to await its next assignment. Hostlers operated steam locomotives in the engine terminal, moving them from point to point for the wash, inspection, repair/adjsutment and make ready steps.  

The crew assigned for a train would operate the next available locomotive of the class required, as selected by the trainmaster. Dedicated steam locomotives having their own engineers (engine drivers) ended by the 1870s in the US. Dedicated cabooses (brake vans) having their own conductors carried on until the 1950s.

Found this guys Definately black !

But note the graphited smokebox! (It's really metallic grey!)

Good find, Davy Mac!  And even with the basic black appearance, there is obvious shading from road grime and light reflection.

I have to thank Ed Bommer for his patience and for his knowledge of the details in adding a post to this forum.  Way too often on this forum, I have seen other knowledgeable people answer in a way that makes the original poster sorry he asked.  Ed Bommer never does that to me or anyone else here.  Have a great day, gentlemen.

GN DID paint some passenger engines green, didn't they?  (AS did Southern, but I think GN's was darker.)

Kent

Absolutely!  The GN painted hundreds of steam locomotives with Light Olive Green boiler jackets.  Smoke boxes were graphited or painted bright aluminum.  The GN painted everything from 0-6-0 switchers to Mallets that way.  When Light Olive Green was applied to the boiler and cylinder jackets and the cab roof was painted Mineral Red it was referred to as "the Glacier Park Paint Scheme."

The Z-6 class 4-6-6-4s were an SP&S add on to an NP order from Alco.  Two were leased to the GN by the SP&S for use on the Oregon Trunk.  They were later returned to the SP&S.  No evidence exists that either of the two locomotives received light olive paint although they did sport GN heralds on their tenders.

I know this is an old post, but all Erie steam was not black. The Erie sometimes used Russian Iron which gives this blue-gray color in the picture originally posted.

See page 7 of "Erie Railroad Trackside" with Robert F. Collins by Larry DeYoung from Morning Sun Books. K5A #2935 appears in it's rebuilt form with BoxPok drivers on 2 axles and a Russian Iron boiler.

2935 is a rebuilt K5A

2929 is a K5

Hi Johnny, thats good to know,so she is indeed with a Russian blue boiler in this pic ?

Good to know. I don't have that book but I'll take your word for it. Thanks very much.

This will be a re-hash project for a winter's night.  Again thanks for the info