Topeka, Kansas City, and St. Louis layout 3-21-2016

Check this photo for correct basement wall dimensions. The see the blue numbers for the benchwork dimensions. I had 1' where you need 3'. That 2' squeezes the 108 table width behind the stairs down to ~83"

See note at bottom. Is this dimensionally correct for the space perimeter?

Well clearly even my revised measurements are off.  My wife's ADD has clearly been transfered to me this week - I'm normally pretty accurate with this stuff - that said, there's a reason I'm not a Architect. =)  I believe in my original calculations I left 2'  off. The south wall depth increases from 300" to 324" opposite the furnace - it was left off previous plan drawings - which with the 12" you've left =  36".  

The computer and paper weren't quite working visually for me - so I spent my evening with a sharpie, string, straight edge, and measuring tape laying out on the floor a track plan utilizing O100 on the outside loop and I drew it at O90 on the inside loop (with O100 gradual transitions) - this is drawn moving from a 4" center to center on straights to a 7" center to center on the curves and it looks great to me.

So, there is space there.

Are you sure you want to scribe you own arcs when you lay the track?  That's a lot to bite off on you first layout.  Those two radius tracks would make a natural 5" c-t-c and wouldn't require easement tracks.

The 0106 & 096 have a 5" c-t-c.

Some masking tape on the floor for the table helps, too.

Please use Moonman's idea! Mark out your layout on the floor with masking tape, It will give you a real feeling for how things will look and work with the space allotted! Keep your isles at least 24" wide, you will never regret having at least that much width. I have an isle much like yours, it is 18" wide by 11' deep, and it is difficult to maneuver. I have a 36" waist, and I am unable to turn around in that space comfortably! Regards, Clifford

Definitely plan to - and yea, I can't visualize an aisle under 24" wide - that just wouldn't work.  24" required.

Spent my day painting - the pink is finally gone after 5 coats of Kilz. It wouldn't die.

I've got everything drawn out on the floor except the internal yards for the Engine house and Brewery.   Both will be in the western loops - I'm planning the brewery to be on the south east side of that loop inside the curve out towards the furnace.   Planning the Engine House to rest towards the Northwest corner at 36" - sitting below and in front of the climbing mainline - The yard can run the length of the 18' wall.

I'm planning to do all the work right on the benchwork rather than pre-curving - I feel like this will work much better for me personally.  

Spent some time at the big box stores yesterday -  Planning to use an L-girder benchwork construction - 1 x 4 and 1 x 2  for the L girder, the wall side mounted right on the concrete - the interior l-girder + the benchwork that doesn't have a wall on 2x3 posts (which were cheaper than 1x4s)  then use the  1 x 4 s for cross supports as well.

 Not sure what the best underlayment is - something strong and light I assume - I plan to cut to the track and use a combination of thin plywood and foam for the majority of the layout - what's best?  OSB, MDF, a certain type of plywood?  How thick?   They don't carry homosote - but they do carry quietbrace - so I'm thinking I'll use that as a noise reducer. 

OSB and MDF don't hold screws well. You need to pre-drill a pilot hole for every screw for a good bite. A flooring grade plywood would work. Everyone likes 3/4". It's so thin now the nominal is a little over 5/8".

Don't use the quietbrace. It's meant for exterior use and has a black goop on it. Did you check that out? Not much for sound attenuation.

3/4" Flooring Grad Ply -- Check. Got it. 

With the quiet brace I'd read guys have been painting it before cutting it. I figured I could do that... but it is a lot of extra work...

Another option I'm considering is just gluing cork directly onto the plywood -  at nearly $50 for 75 feet, it's not exactly low cost - but significantly less work and looks good.  The question there then is, do I still need additional noise reduction?  If I shoot caulk in-between all of the joints, will that help reduce vibration noise?

This is always an interesting topic. Before I forget, congrats on your track plan. You sound like a man that wants to build a railroad and has a plan.

When I observe a published layout builder like Norm Charbonneau, just put cork on roadbed on top of ply and others, too, I have to think it's works. Elliot(Big_Boy_4014) with his massive layout and experience, takes the time to cut the homosote into roadbed. Some will still go for the overkill and use both.

The sound attenuation of cork is up there with many modern materials. I think you'll be fine with just the cork. Since you are mobile, the app store has a free decibel meter called DB10 for iOS. Compare with sheets of homosote pricing at $29+_ a sheet. I think it about the same. Yeah, it's another cost. By the way, Home Depot calls it by the marketing name, Soundboard 440. It's usually in the section with the foam insulation. Many times, the staff doesn't know they have it. 

Another trick I just saw a guy use, was to put strips of a quality carpet padding on the tops of the joists before screwing down the deck. Isolate the deck from the framing. I liked it and believe it will help.

Care to share a photo of the floor marked out? Who would have thought pink would be that hard to cover. I use the oil based Killz for those jobs. You still need to put a primer for the new wall paint or get a paint primer combo. The colors won't turn out correctly over Killz.

Thanks Moonman - I appreciate all the help - has really helped in getting me going.  

I was leaning towards cork right on the plywood - the fact Norm does it makes me all the more confident - his layout work is among the most impressive I've seen - certainly pulling some inspiration from there.  I'm planning on painting my ceilings black like he has and adding track lighting in a similar vein.  His low-relief buildings are incredible - I'd like to try to use some of that as inspiration on my west wall - perhaps a West Bottomsesque look to it - 

I'm trying to figure out now how I want to deal with the backdrop.  Looks like most folks use Masonite - not sure if I should, or just paint a basic sky blue and light clouds on the concrete. 

Nice layout plan Moonman, I"m also building a big layout in my basement. Right now I'm stuck with a small test track on my basement floor. I doing a youtube series on the layouts construction and train stuff. My channel name is Dans Trains https://www.youtube.com/channe...4ivkEenZvSWXHOZpQWdg here are some videos of my test track and basement.  

Check it out! Also if you guys have good layout building advice when it comes to benchwork I'm all ears!

hey Dan's Trains,

It is JacobPaul81's plan. I just put it to a computer app. See his pencil drawings above.

I watched your USA SD60 video. Nice engine.

I like L-Girder with the personal variations that I have seen. It's a sturdy compact system that's very flexible to fit you design. I favor around the walls for most designs. If you have a huge room, a large full walk around is nice.

Lots of framing and decking variations. Search the forum and the web for model railroad benchwork.

Jacobpaul81,

I had an idea for the alcove at the bottom of the steps...make it a mountain with tunnels. A front with portals and a top. You could leave a flat spot for a vignette on the mountain. You could make a cool gorge under the bridge(s) by cutting out part of the table. maybe a waterfall down from the mountain. It would be a nice site going down the steps to the train room.

added the wall behind the furnace at 174" from the West and 43" to the South.

I adjusted the table , but kept the old track plan.

Very few clouds look ok to me. But a blue sky with building flats or foam board carved like rocks gives some 3D to the layout and a transition to the sky.

The Masonite lets you do whatever you like and remove without messing with the walls. The photo backdrops always look cool. Blend the sky colors to the backdrop sky.

That's what looks good to my eye.

That's about what I was thinking as well - simple backdrop - more 3D dynamic modeling to the background than "Art". 

My original track plan was done by a pal who didn't have a good preception of the areas the track would need. He was drawing for On30 but thinking HO. In the end, one aisle was comically thin, maybe a thin teen could have fit if standing sideways and even then it'd been a tight fit.
I bought several sheets of poster board, laid it all down 1:1 scale and drew the actual curves to see what would really work out. I had to re-design the center section of the layout from that. I'd already cut and nailed lumber together by then but I didn't get any further and the changes weren't that bad as I only needed to change one section, all from looking at the paper 1:1 representation.

Frankly, I don't trust computer projections, I've heard too many horror stories about how when the track laying started, it simply didn't work like the computer said it would.

Thanks for the input!   I've got everything drawn out now except my inner yards -  not sure how I'm going to approach that yet - wondering if I should build the exterior benchwork along the west wall using L-girder - then once I've got everything the way I want it, come in and build a standard table for the lower level yards. 

Hey P51,

My designs fit perfectly, which is why I need accurate measurements and an accurate table build. One guy shorted his table 7/8" of width on each leg because "close enough" was good for him. You can guess that the track didn't fit.

JacobPaul81 drew it on the floor to make sure of his fitment. Passenger train collector did his new Christmas layout on red rosin paper.

The planning and building are two different acts. A good plan always makes the build execution easier.

The ancients didn't need more than string to build level and plumb structures, but there had to be something of a plan to guide them.

The software is like any other tool, it depends who is using it.

Add another hanger(arm) to the pylon or just attach another set of girders to legs if you use that style. The L-girder should be able to span 6'-8' with no center support to block the view..

Following a train store visit, the wife is now very much hyped. She was like a kid in a candy store.  So I'm in full gear -

Painted walls with Killz primer - Drew out track plan with sharpie on floor and taped out benchwork edges - I'm going to expand the East side a bit towards the south wall so that there's more distance from track to layout edge. Calls for a 34" aisle - once I figure out exactly how I'm going to build the table, I'll tweak the aisle some to allow me to reach the east wall as that's the one place I don't have easy access to. 

I've started constructing L-Girders for the concrete walls.  Also have furring cut for mounting the backdrop.  I'll start mounting this with tapcon screws this week. Hope to have the wall L-girder, backdrop up and painted, and would like to have the new walls around the stairs installed by weekend's end if at all possible.  Then I'll be redoing the floor with speckled garage paint before I delve into building the interior L girders and bench legs.   

Making a few tweaks to benchwork height -  we planned for 35" and 42" - I'm going to raise that up to 38" and 45" - around the stairs I'll lower the benchwork itself to 35" and put the track on risers - that way I can model a steep rivers-edge around the tight space

Here's some photos

Your profile says Missouri.  Not sure where you are, but if you are looking for homasote, see if there is a Menards nearby.  They have a few stores in MO, and they carry homasote.

It's beginning to look like something! Your elevations  sound good. Keep your access isles wide enough to move freely! If you will have a "duck-under" or lift out section try to place this at the highest height! you will be crawling under that bridge often. Any derailments will occur on the opposite side of which you are standing(LOL). Keep up the good work!

Progress Report:  

Vetoed hanging masonite to concrete. -   couldn't get a tapcon to hold to concrete -  instead chosen to just work with the walls as they are and if I want a backdrop, I'll attach a short one to the benchwork.   With that in mind, I've begun to tackle bench work...

Hammer drill, drill a pilot hole, then the tapcon with a hammer drill. They can be a pain.

Makin' it happen now. Good plan B on the backdrop.

Thanks for the update. hey, like others suggest that follow the builds, update your post title with "xx\xx\xx update". You have more fans than you think. Everyone learns from builds.

A little more intense. Drill a 1/2" hole in the concrete and use a lead set. These require a setting tool usually included in the product box. There are hollow wall set tools also.  Usually requires a 1/4" X 20 X length  machine screw.  As you drive the expanding lead against the tapered steel piece it tightens in the wall.

Greelee Hollow wall set tool.   The lead set threads to the one end of the tool. It is inserted in the wall and then hammered tight.  Tool is backed out, fastener is ready for a 1/4" X 20 bolt.  The tool also compensates, if your hole in a concrete wall is too deep. It hold the fastener at the wall surface.

Jake,

Don’t dismiss QuietBrace too quickly. I used Homasote on my first five layouts (1966 > 1993), but was not able to find it for my sixth layout (first O-Gauge, in 2009) so I used QuietBrace instead. That layout was approximately 7-ft x 20-ft and I painted the QB grey.

For my present layout (about 1000 Sq-Ft), started 2011, I did not even bother to look for Homasote because I liked QB better. As far as I can tell, QB is just as good as sound insulator as Homasote, and everyone else who has used it (many here in this forum) likes it. This last time I started painting the QB as I had done previously, but after painting the first four sheets, I stopped. I realized that the surface will not be exposed, and any that would show under the ballast would be just fine left black.

The black stuff could stain your shirt and pants if you rub hard against it, and may make your hands dirty, but this is really a very small issue. Besides, it offers a bit of protection as it makes the surface just a bit harder. I cut the QB the same as I used to cut the Homasote – with a utility knife. I cut curves and angled cuts (to simulate roadbed) with a saber saw and a knife-edge blade. All of these cutting methods result in zero dust.

I just looked at the current prices, and Menard’s has 1/2"x4'x8' Homasote for $26.99, and Home Depot has 1/2"x4'x8' QuietBrace for $10.35.

Good luck with whichever method you choose!

Alex

Beautiful weather and commitments have slowed me down some -  I've installed studs around the stairs and hung Sheetrock I had on hand from other remodeling projects.  My next step is to build the wine rack under the stairs -  I'll use that for the support structure for the L girder and bracing under staircase.  I'm going to shift my south table towards the west wall and use triangle bracing as I've used along the stair wall to wrap up the wall behind the furnace. 

I'm rethinking this section of the layout for modeling purposes.  I'll know for sure once the wine rack is done, but I'm leaning towards fitting my brewery under the staircase using the wine rack as the construction base.  If I shorten the south straight a hair, then I can add a switch in front of the furnace and put in some industry sidings under the stairs.

Originally I was thinking of using the west wall for my engine yard, but if I move the brewery under the stairs, then It can utilize the South table top, making it more of a focal point - and pushing the industry completely to the south section.  That'd add some modeling room along the West wall and north wall for more country scenery.

In the area around the water main, I think I can reduce my distance from the wall -  I built the table under instead around the main - I'm gonna try and build a water proofed box to model cliff face on to cover the main and make it easy to remove and access.  On this side I'm looking to figure 8 the inner main -  rather than run two double mains parallel - I'll cross the lower inside line underneath the upper inside line -  this will reverse train directions creating a less linear and more multi- level experiance.  

This means the duck under bridges will be 7" height difference with the inner line being 7" higher.  I'm hoping to install two left switches - one before and one after the bridge on the outer main -  this will be used to create a reversing loop which will tuck under the outer main right after the bridge.  As the inner main drops 7" along the north wall - @ 2% should roughly be 30ft - the two should level out at the water main and parallel each other - I'm thinking about installing a Ross double crossover here.   That'd allow multi directional use of both mainlines creating a maximum mainline track length of roughly 275 total feet -while adding additional action to this end of layout - which is predominatly visaual in use.

Finally -  going to clear out my previously acquired toy train stock.  Already unloaded a few items.  I've got 4 89' Santa Fe autoracks and 2 of the 86' boxcars that should be here this week - 12' of train to pair with a future Diesel purchase. Trying to decide what other mixed freight I should pick up to pair with these - was thinking some scale tank train tankers, maybe some Evans plug doors, but open to ideas. Looking for scale period locos - F7s, Sd45s, FP45s, SD40-2s to run. Unfortunately, the locomotive builders haven't done much with the locos of this period - there's a few sd40 /45 options - but I've only found an MTH (and a to be released 3rd Rail) F7 scale paint correct model and the MTH and Williams FP45s are both inaccurate - with only MTH releasing it in freight scheme. 

The framing is coming along. Yep. life and family come first, then you head to the train room for some quiet time on simple things.

I had to go back to that Southwest table width issue. I was thinking that it had to loop back to the west and across the space all on that table.

Thinking through your scenery as you build the framing is  good process.

I like the idea of the reroute around/under the water main and the adjustment to the east end. That end was always an afterthought during the design. This sounds like a good refinement without major changes. I don't think it needs to waterproof. If something happens there, it will be major. Don't park any trains there.

I used a frame with screen and Right Stuff foam to make a cover to hide a wall problem. The foam is hard to carve, but it's a cool shell. I think that I could have used 1/2" or 1" foam insulation board to make a "box" to hide the obtrusion and still carve rock look into it. A few squares of adhesive backed Velcro can make it removable.

Thanks for the update and photos.

 Thanks for the response Moonman.   I was thinking I might build a simple plywood box, spray the inside with Flexseal, and do something similar to what you describe with Foam to the outside.  Keep it simple enough to lift up, and maybe put a wedge in it to direct water away if something were to happen.  

The southwest is a 90 degree turn from the open area to along the backside of furnace. If a train's headed east, it makes a 90 degree North.  At 102 center diameter, this is 25.5 on center - requiring just under 3 feet .  

Behind the furnace, there's roughly 13 feet from the south edge of the planned table to the point at which the trains must clear the stairs.  The 3 feet leaves 10 feet of travel to work with.  

In order to clear the stairs, a train must make a 45 degree which at 12.75 on center should require a generous 2 feet with clearances.  So we're down to 8 feet.  It must also travel out 3 feet once it's made it's turn in order to clear the stairs. Leaving 5 feet.  

To wrap the stairs, it must also make another 45 degree. This turn could eat up 2 feet - but depending on how close it is to the stair will determine that figure.  If it's at minimum, it will only take about 6-8" as the other half of turn will be past clearance.   So we're down to about 3 to 3 1/2 feet of play. This means there's about 1-2 feet straight behind the furnace between the 90 and the 45. Logic dictates that the sooner the initial 45 turns,  the more it will clear the stairs.  So there is 1-2 feet there for a switch if one were to put one in. 

That said, a slight modification to the travel of the south most run can result in more options.  The shorter the south run gets, the less return travel the 45 to 45 requires (obviously there are diminishing returns).  Pushing the trains into the room 6" adds back 6"to the straight section behind the furnace.  So depending on the needs of a Ross switch - there should be room to do it off the straight.

Here's a layout I came upon that has the backdrop attached to the table. It will look good doing it that way.

Not much donre on the layout this weekend -  landscaping took priority...though I started the wine rack and mounted the l- girder under there stairs.  Think I will wrap up the bench work framing Wednesday.   

Received a big package on Thursday.  Pricey but will make up a major focus of my railroad.  

Considering modifying my plan some -  was going to make it all conventional -  but thinking I'd be better to set it up for command from the start -  skip the transformers and just run everything off power bricks and a legacy system -  cost seems much better and most the scale locos are already command equipped.  While MTH offers several locos I'm interested in ( Cigar Band Santa Fe F7 & FP45), neither is PS3 yet - Atlas is TMCC as is the Lionel F7 warbonnet I'm looking at for my passenger line - so legacy makes more sense.  As Im about ready to start wiring, I need to get a handle on how to set it all up -  

Does each main need a brick, or could I block layout in half at stairs and have a brick on each side - saving nearly half the wire?  

Do I need a dedicated brick for the reverse loop or can that be on one of the mainlines?

 Will yards need dedicated bricks?  

Other things I haven't thought to ask?

If you have sufficient receptacles around the walls and a main switch for the layout power, bricks in areas work and it will make wiring a little easier.

The other approach is one hot for each main end to end(a bus) and then just one common. The commons all use the same.

12awg is nice , but 14awg works. Can use house wire for the bus or what ever you find that is the least expensive.

The bus also makes it easier to pre-drill the holes in the joists and feed the bus wires before installing the deck.

Yard could have it's own power, or you can control it remotely with a couple of TMCC or Legacy devices. like the SC-2 or BPC-2.

Tell me where you'd like to locate the bricks and base. I'll sketch a proposal.

Check out Ingenerio 1(alex) and Laidoffsick. They have some large layouts for Legacy.

At the moment, there are no recepticles -  so I'm free to wire at will -  right now there are two separate lighting breakers for the room -  my plan was to wire all the lights to an active switch and take back the second breaker for the layout -  so I could run lines across ceiling and drop just about anywhere -  Ideally I was thinking that the stairs would be the best place to wire in a switch and control area as well as power as it would be easy to cut the layout on half - but the lift bridge troubles me -  I could wire one block in at a stairs and run from the bridge to where it joins .  I coukd then run power from the switch over ceiling, drop it in the alcove and install two more bricks - one going west and the other going south west - having them meet at west wall.    Seems there most efficient use of wire.  Then if the yards needed their own, iitd be easy to install at the stairs.

I'll check out those layouts and see how they handle the large runs.

You have it. I estimate about 100' for each color to run a bus down the center. 2 track hot, 1 common, 1 acc hot, so 400' feet of 12awg.  16awg for feeders in pairs every 6'-10' feet of track. Finding the sweet spot for the remote to base communication will be the next step.

here's Alex' Hidden Pass Junction. he is using DCS. Wiring scheme is May 1, 2011 post with diagram.

So, depends if you envision running both systems at some point. Susan Deats (splrr)has no problems with a bus and DCS\Legacy.

A couple of modular clubs with large layouts that travel, need to use a bus by design, and have had some dcs issues which they resolved. National Capital Trackers and North Penn O Gaugers. 

Definitely going to go for just Legacy - Wiring is not my strong suit - so I want to keep things as simple as possible - if all I've gotta do is run power bricks to wire connected to track, that sounds ideal. 2 systems or 1 system and a transformer seems way more difficult.  

While MTH has some nice looking equipment, most of the motive power I'm interested in from them is conventional.  As Weaver and Atlas have produced way more period options - and often TMCC equipped - supporting them with the hope they'll fill some of the missing options in future catalogs seems the best route.  

Layout construction is in standby as the weather has cleared - lots of landscaping to do.  Decades of neglect has me outside digging footings for retaining walls and building flower beds.  I'll start wrapping up Benchwork if it starts raining again. 

 I told you guys I got a nice package in the mail the other day - Easter special from trainworld.  4 89' Autoracks and 2 86' boxcars.  They are BIG. Can't wait to get them on the layout with some EMD locomotives.

Well -  ive changed my mind -  I'm sure that's super common -  going to go with DCS to start and will add tmcc later if required.   After further research there are far more ps2 options than TMCC options for my modeling period.

Put Ina cork order -  going to put in a track order for one case to start -  going to start with the outer loop and get that up and running, then delve into the inner loop.  This will require a right and left O96 Ross switch -  am I better off with manual or with one of the two switch matching options?

For DCS -  I've looked over the star wiring -  the power source to the tiu then from there to terminal blocks which star out to the track.  Correct?   If so, should one lionel 180w and two terminal blocks be enough for a 116' mainline and the 20'  reversing loop?

You will probably only need one terminal block.  It is recommended that each block be about 8 to 12 track sections regardless of length.  If track is soldered together than that counts as one track section.  The recommended block should be no longer than 100 feet regardless of the track sections.

Depending on number of sections I would probably have about 4 to 6 blocks for that length of track and you have enough to do 12 on a MTH Terminal block.  Remember to use 16 gauge wire and try to make each wire coming off the terminal block the same length.  Also add an 18V light bulb across the terminal block.....  this improves the DCS signal.  See the DCS forum and magic light bulb for further info.

I guess I'm having difficulty with grasping the star wiring functionality vs. bus on an around the room layout.  Makes much more sense on basic square area.  

If I'm understanding correctly - I'd need to install the TIU in the alcove - because the lift bridge will have to be the furthest point from the TIU because I can't wire across it. 

From there, I'd need to run a wire completely around that side of the layout to power that section - roughly 50-55 feet.   Then, there needs to be a second 50-55 foot wire somewhere about 12-15 feet in each direction from the TIU along the wall. A fourth 55 ft wire would run to the reverse loop and a 5th wire would need to reach the outer loop on the dogbone end of the layout.  

Jacob,

Wiring for DCS is a constant battle to maintain signal strength. Susan Deats at slsprr.net runs a bus and DCS. The national Capital Trackers run a huge modular layout with DCS and Legacy, which is by design, a bus system without issues.

If you run a pair to a 24 port MTH terminal about midway on the West wall from the alcove and about the center of East with the TIU in the alcove, you should be good. The lengths from the terminal or distribution board are not critical as myth would have it. Barry B. has dispelled that myth. Signal enhancers or magic bulbs are placed where needed.

It's more trouble than I am into for toy trains, so I live with Lionel engine offerings.

Thanks Moonman - as always, very helpful.  I think I know how to work it now.