First Time with TMCC & Having Issues

Are you placing the engine in program mode?

Rod Miller

Cab1 base wire to TIU fixed output 1 common.

Do you have both outside rails connected or have lock-ons on opposite sides some where? TMCC needs continuous common on both rail around the whole layout.

Yes, what Rod said. Find where you can reach the prog/run while it is on the track by sliding your finger or a wire hook under it.

Engine in Prog - cab1 remote - ENG > enter a Number> press SET > engine bell should confirm. Turn-off track power and return Prog/Run switch to Run.

Power up again and press ENG and ID# and horn to confirm it is programmed and receiving signal.

Tex, 

Don't take this wrong, but buying used is something you don't know what your getting into. My name is John, coordinator for the Raritan Valley HiRailers in N.J. There could be several issues with the Cab-1. I can't list them all, but the simplest are always obvious. If your headlight is flickering, you have a weak signal, usually from a poor hook-up of the antennae wire or a questionable command base. Also follow the suggestions that Rod & moonman give you, they are good suggestions. I have chased down our groups issues for 10 years and finally 2 years ago discovered what our problem was. We (the group ) have a large modular layout (40x50) and I discovered  later on, with conducting some tests and credit the late Dale Manquen (Trainfacts.com) with his simple diode & resistor test to check the voltage output at the antennae.  The results were mind boggling. We have 15 guy's in the group and 5 of them had the Cab-1 comand base, including me. Two of the guy's had a Cab-2 Legacy. On the night of one of our meetings I tested the Cab-1 bases. Four out of five had below 1.5 volt antennae voltage. 

Dales Trainfacts website recommends 1.5 to 2 volts as a good signal. We had 4 out of 5 below par levels on the guy's command bases. One base came in at 1.7 volts, and that is the one that is now being used to handle any Cab-1 Loco's and boy let me tell you what a difference. We had also run grounds around the layout to also help things out, which really didn't help much at times. By the way, 1 Legacy command base was almost dead with an antennae signal, and it still to this day has not been fixed or used. The other has been incorporated into the layout in the past year. I don't know what size your layout is, but "size matters". I would suggest reading Trainfacts.com and  you may not need all of the info there and understand all of it (which I didn't), but I sure am thankful to the late Dale Manquen for putting that info out there and to the countless people who I've conversed with who have  layouts, repairman, and whomever, that were able to help me with my issues. I inherited the electrical portion on our groups layout since I've been an electrician for 45 years, which is what pushed me to find answers. I'd also like to thank Bob De Guarde (fellow N.J. Hi-Railer) with his knowledge, the late Dale Manquen, Marty Fitzhenry, Gunrunner John, Alex Malliae, and last but not least Mike Reagan. If there's anything that I can help with the issue you are having, contact me by my e-mail listed in the profile if you want to.

Steam Forever

     John

    Check out Facebook for the Raritan Valley Hi-Railers - leave a comment, please!

     Check out N.J. Hi-Railers website

Try this as this will help you figure out what you may be doing wrong or if there is a problem with the base or Cab1

Set up a 3' length of track hooked to nothing but your transformer. With the U post to the outside rail(s) connect a wire either to the U post on your transformer from the command base or the outside rails. Plug the base in. Check engine to ensure your in program mode, Power up the track. Click eng put your 2 digit number between 02 - 98 , hit set as stated you should hear horn or at least the lights blink if it doesn't have horn. 

The reason I say do a separate piece of track as you said I believe you presently also have DCC hooked up. 

Try this by itself first then you can work on the same track if all is good. 

P.S. if you get sounds but no movement replace batteries as they probably not strong enough to operate movement.

Loco is switched to program, all setup per the manual.

I will check the output voltage on the antenna, and try it via my test track section on my bench.  

Can anyone answer though whether the red light should flash on the base with any input from the Cab1 or just certain inputs.  It flashes when I use the boost and set buttons along with the throttle wheel, when the eng button or others on top row along with number buttons are pushed no red light flashing.  Seems strange it would do with some input and not others, but nothing I have read indicates how this should act which is why I ask.

The ENG button is a pre-condition, the CAB1 doesn't transmit until you key in a number.  Same with the SW, ACC, etc.

Tex,

   Both John and Guns are giving you good advise, buying used can lead to problems, you do not ever know what you are purchasing.  On the other hand Guns has pick up some serious stuff at great prices.  Guns ofcourse can fix about anything on the rails.  

PCRR/Dave

All, appreciate the pointers and advice.  I got the TMCC setup dirt cheap, so even if part of it is nonworking I am not really "out" anything.  At this point I am trying to troubleshoot and work through the different scenarios to figure out where the issue is.  I got this to toy with whether I wanted to run two systems (DCS and TMCC/Legacy) or stick with just DCS.  I also got the T1 for a great deal too.

Right now I am leaning heavily towards staying one system and converting the T1.  It's just simpler to run through one system especially when MU'ing and what not.

I am just not sure how the TMCC base is supposed to behave.  Sometimes when I press a number the red light flickers, most of the time it does not.  It seams the base is not registering all remote commands. 

Only way to know is getting a good system to test with, but right now don't want to throw money that direction.  I am being cheap, on purpose.

I have tried multiple scenarios with no luck, but will keep trying.  The T1 definitely responds differently when the TMCC antenna is connected to the track than when I run it conventionally.  It runs conventionally just fine.  I cannot get it to program via the DCS remote though either going that route, so maybe there's a board issue on the T1?

TexasSP posted:

 

Can anyone answer though whether the red light should flash on the base with any input from the Cab1 or just certain inputs.  It flashes when I use the boost and set buttons along with the throttle wheel, when the eng button or others on top row along with number buttons are pushed no red light flashing.  Seems strange it would do with some input and not others, 

I presume you have fresh batteries in the remote? If not, start there. Also check that the metal tabs that make contact with the ends of the batteries are doing so.

Over time these tabs bend in and cause power issues with the remote. Pull them out a bit with a flat blade screwdriver.

Sometimes the  buttons on the cab one can become"flaky"over time.

Usually it's the more frequently used buttons like the whistle bell and direction but it can happen to all of them.

It's a combination of dirt and wear on the contacts underneath each button.

There's a thread on how to clean them if you search.

At this point, given the age of the unit it might be better to find another one. Even if you know someone that lend you a remote that works so you can at least test the base.

Same goes for the T1. Do you know anyone where you could take it and test it with their tmcc or legacy? The problem could certainly be in the Loco too.

When the components are functioning properly  tmcc /legacy are a no brainer, just a one wire hooked to the common anywhere on your layout. One pair of feeders or twenty, no blocks or a dozen, it works.

The other point is, with the TMCC base, you can run TMCC locomotives with the DCS remote, you just need a cable to connect the TMCC base to the TIU serial port.

John J. Giuliano posted:

Tex, 

Don't take this wrong, but buying used is something you don't know what your getting into. My name is John, coordinator for the Raritan Valley HiRailers in N.J. There could be several issues with the Cab-1. I can't list them all, but the simplest are always obvious. If your headlight is flickering, you have a weak signal, usually from a poor hook-up of the antennae wire or a questionable command base. Also follow the suggestions that Rod & moonman give you, they are good suggestions. I have chased down our groups issues for 10 years and finally 2 years ago discovered what our problem was. We (the group ) have a large modular layout (40x50) and I discovered  later on, with conducting some tests and credit the late Dale Manquen (Trainfacts.com) with his simple diode & resistor test to check the voltage output at the antennae.  The results were mind boggling. We have 15 guy's in the group and 5 of them had the Cab-1 comand base, including me. Two of the guy's had a Cab-2 Legacy. On the night of one of our meetings I tested the Cab-1 bases. Four out of five had below 1.5 volt antennae voltage. 

Dales Trainfacts website recommends 1.5 to 2 volts as a good signal. We had 4 out of 5 below par levels on the guy's command bases. One base came in at 1.7 volts, and that is the one that is now being used to handle any Cab-1 Loco's and boy let me tell you what a difference. We had also run grounds around the layout to also help things out, which really didn't help much at times. By the way, 1 Legacy command base was almost dead with an antennae signal, and it still to this day has not been fixed or used. The other has been incorporated into the layout in the past year. I don't know what size your layout is, but "size matters". I would suggest reading Trainfacts.com and  you may not need all of the info there and understand all of it (which I didn't), but I sure am thankful to the late Dale Manquen for putting that info out there and to the countless people who I've conversed with who have  layouts, repairman, and whomever, that were able to help me with my issues. I inherited the electrical portion on our groups layout since I've been an electrician for 45 years, which is what pushed me to find answers. I'd also like to thank Bob De Guarde (fellow N.J. Hi-Railer) with his knowledge, the late Dale Manquen, Marty Fitzhenry, Gunrunner John, Alex Malliae, and last but not least Mike Reagan. If there's anything that I can help with the issue you are having, contact me by my e-mail listed in the profile if you want to.

Steam Forever

     John

    Check out Facebook for the Raritan Valley Hi-Railers - leave a comment, please!

     Check out N.J. Hi-Railers website

So John, if you have a weak signal, what is the fix?  Can Command Bases be repaired?

Thanks,

George

When Dale Manquen was surviving, he said to us that he could "tweek or tune" it up, so 3 of us had sent our command bases to Dale and he was able to tweek out a slightly stronger signal, and his price was very reasonable for the 3 units. As far as I can tell, they probably can't be fixed. The bases for Cab-1 are out there, but very scarce because their outdated quite awhile. If you go to train shows, always ask if the individual has one laying around thats new. As anything with electronics, they have a limited lifespan. Gunrunner John can give you a better answer than myself on that issue. Sorry, I couldn't be of more help!

    Steam Forever

         John

John J. Giuliano posted:

When Dale Manquen was surviving, he said to us that he could "tweek or tune" it up, so 3 of us had sent our command bases to Dale and he was able to tweek out a slightly stronger signal, and his price was very reasonable for the 3 units. As far as I can tell, they probably can't be fixed. The bases for Cab-1 are out there, but very scarce because their outdated quite awhile. If you go to train shows, always ask if the individual has one laying around thats new. As anything with electronics, they have a limited lifespan. Gunrunner John can give you a better answer than myself on that issue. Sorry, I couldn't be of more help!

    Steam Forever

         John

Well, at least thank you for that.  I didn't know that these Command Bases had signal issues.  I had a few spots on the old layout where locomotives would exhibit some jerkiness and flickering headlamps.  I always thought it was my wiring (although multiple checks showed solid connections).  If the real cause was a weak signal from the command base, well...

That might explain much.

I learned something useful.  Thanks again.

George

I think a command base out of tune was the exception more than the norm.  You still may have a layout issue, that requires a ground plane in certain areas.  G

Dale tried to take the word "plane" out of the description of the "ground wire antenna" but without success. Now I think of him every time I read "ground plane". So that's good after all.

What was Dale tuning, the 455KHz to the rail or the 11 meter signal between the cab1 and the base?

I'm pretty sure it was 455khz to rail, since he didn't request the hand held.

     Steam Forever

          John

cjack posted:

Dale tried to take the word "plane" out of the description of the "ground wire antenna" but without success. Now I think of him every time I read "ground plane". So that's good after all.

What was Dale tuning, the 455KHz to the rail or the 11 meter signal between the cab1 and the base?

 

a quote from Dale's article:

"If the frequency tuning of the Base oscillator shifts away from the nominal value, the receivers in the locomotives may have a reduced sensitivity. Re-tuning L8 is a bit risky, but sometimes this is necessary. Using the least sensitive locomotive as a reference, press the horn/whistle button on the CAB-1. Use a plastic screwdriver to adjust L8 back and forth until you determine the extremes of the adjustment range that will activate the horn/whistle. Now adjust L8 to the middle of this adjustment range. Check all you other locomotives. (You could have just one bad locomotive and a good Base!)"

The article link:

http://www.trainfacts.com/trainfacts/?p=298

I've tuned a couple of bases using the technique that Dale described, they do drift after years.  You could also slap a 'scope on it, I've looked at the signal that way, but just tuning the way Dale described seems to be the most direct.

Is the power supply for the base have a ground lug?  If no that's your issue.  If it does is the outlet grounded properly?

Get rid of the dirt cheap base and buy one that you know works. That's cheaper than converting the T1. Some posters here are making it sound like the bases are problematic. That's simply not the case.