Freight Pennsy GG1 pulled?

Your Google searching is correct.  If you check out GG1 on YouTube you will find a number of videos of GG1’s in freight service.  At that time, these would all have been mixed freights and would have included all of the types you listed.

I’m not an expert by any means, but I checked my slide collection for GG1 freight images and it seemed to be what you’d call “general revenue”; lots of boxcars, refrigerators, etc. Not so much of the industrial loads, such as coal, iron ore, or steel. Maybe because the electric routes were very urbanized, the online customers tended to be food warehouses, port facilities, and similar businesses. Didn’t see any coal unit trains. Not a lot of heavy industry directly along the electrified lines of the “Corridor” so that’s a possible explanation.

@Stoneboro Branch posted:

I’m not an expert by any means, but I checked my slide collection for GG1 freight images and it seemed to be what you’d call “general revenue”; lots of boxcars, refrigerators, etc. Not so much of the industrial loads, such as coal, iron ore, or steel. Maybe because the electric routes were very urbanized, the online customers tended to be food warehouses, port facilities, and similar businesses. Didn’t see any coal unit trains. Not a lot of heavy industry directly along the electrified lines of the “Corridor” so that’s a possible explanation.

Arnold, I this is the more likely scenario.  The GG-1 was used for many mixed and general freight trains.  East of Harrisburg, you might (might) have seen some mineral trains, but that's less likely.

George  

Thanks for all your contributions.

Sounds like Postwar operating milk cars, operating merchandise cars and box cars would be prototypical with the GGI. The merchandise cars and some of the box cars are PRR.

I will start a new thread regarding the real locomotives that hauled heavy industrial cars in the Northeast, unless I can find prior similar threads.

Arnold

Pages and pages of pictures in Don Ball's "Pennsylvania Railroad in the 1950's and 1960's".

Jon

Arnold GG-1's definitely pulled freight trains.  n the 1960s I saw them in action pulling freights many times as a kid on the Pennsy main between Philly and Baltimore and Baltimore and Alexandria Virginia's Potomac Yard, owned by the Richmond Fredricksburg and Potomac Railroad.    Some GG1s were geared for freight and others for passenger service.   There are Pennsy videos that documents GG-1s with freights.  Often there were two or three GG1's on the head end of freight trains.  In Baltimore there was a GG1 regularly  assigned to helper duty to assist freight trains through the B&P tunnel which has a upward grade.   Check out Youtube for many videos documenting the GG1's with freight train .. between Philly - Harrisburg and New York - Potomac Yard in Virginia.  

I think as the P5 motors were getting old, and fewer passenger trains, some GG1's went into freight service.  Now was the gearing in the power trucks changed?

In the book " The Remarkable GG1" by Karl R. Zimmerman there is a multitude of photos of GG1's pulling both passenger and freight.  The book was published by Quadrant Press Review 6.  My copy is the 4th printing dated Dec. 1983.  If this book is still in print it's a " must have " for any fan of the GG1.  I would post a photo of the book's cover, however, copyright restrictions prevail.  

This book is soft bound and is only 73 pages.  It's shape and size resembles a 1950's Lionel catalogue.  

The PRR hauled quite a bit of coal under wire, primarily to coal piers in Northern NJ, Philly, and Baltimore;  in the postwar years Baltimore gained quite a bit, thanks to new facilities, at the expense of Philly.

In the early fifties the PRR built a massive iron ore dock at Philly, and it was expanded soon thereafter, for import ore;  this went to not only Bethlehem, but west to Pittsburgh and other steel centers not on the Great Lakes, such as Weirton.  Those trains took a LOT of power.

In the E44 era those would have been the preferred power for either of the above if available;  post PC, the E33's were the first choice with their higher tractive effort, but of course there weren't too many of those.

One of many factors on whether a train got 44 or G haulage was that the former had their monthly inspections performed at Enola, but it was Wilmington for the G's.

Best, SZ

Patrick, I also have that same book around here somewhere, great book, my Mom bought it for me growing up for a birthday present.

Rusty

Saw many Pennsy freights pulled by Gs on the NEC when I was a kid. It was common for them to have 2 or even 3 leading 100 or so cars. Officially (according to Wiki) "In the mid-1950s, with declining demand for passenger train service, GG1s 4801–4857 were re-geared for a maximum speed of 90 miles per hour (140 km/h) and placed in freight service. They initially retained their train heating steam generator, and were recalled to passenger service for holiday season mail trains, and 'Passenger Extras' such as those run for the annual Army–Navy football game in Philadelphia."

Of course, they could occasionally be found hauling freight as far back as the 30's, and did so right up until Conrail abandoned electrification in 1980.

Ive read the Tuscan ones tended to be used more on the high profile, named passenger train routes and streamliners. And green had more freights.

I don't recall for 100% sure but I think the motor windings were different. (or the gears are in the motor case. It has a quill drive off the output shafts. A very unique drive.

@Adriatic posted:

...snip... It has a quill drive off the output shafts. A very unique drive.

Copied from the New Haven's EP-3.

@Adriatic posted:

Ive read the Tuscan ones tended to be used more on the high profile, named passenger train routes and streamliners. And green had more freights.

I don't recall for 100% sure but I think the motor windings were different. (or the gears are in the motor case. It has a quill drive off the output shafts. A very unique drive.

In reality only 10 of the 139 GG1s built were painted Tuscan Red 5 stripe and two were later painted in Tuscan Red single stripe.  As delivered from 1935-1943 all GG1s wore DGLE (Dulux Green Locomotive Enamel)  The practice of Tuscan Red for passenger service locomotives came in 1952.  The two other oddball schemes (4829 - the five stripes merging into one) and the single stripe silver GG1s were fairly short lived in that paint. 

By the time PC came along, it is likely that all GG1s wore some form of DGLE whether it was a holdover from the 5 stripe era to single stripe repaints.  4801 kept its stripes up to 1974 while several GG1s were retired in their PRR single stripe scheme with either Amtrak, CR or NJDOT stenciled on the sides.

As to freight service, the GG1 did fill in to start for ailing P5as.  The GG1 was not a great freight hauler which is why you will see photos or two or three pulling a train.  Their ability to start the train was a bit of strain, especially considering the reduced 90 mph gearing.  The former N&W/Virginian E33s and later E44s were designed to haul freight and more successfully. 

@Adriatic posted:

Ive read the Tuscan ones tended to be used more on the high profile, named passenger train routes and streamliners. And green had more freights.

I don't recall for 100% sure but I think the motor windings were different. (or the gears are in the motor case. It has a quill drive off the output shafts. A very unique drive.

From 1935 to 1955 GG1s were painted in either the Loewy or Modified Loery dark green, 5 stripe schemes.

In 1952 ten GG1s were painted Tuscan Red with 5 stripes and used for passenger service. 

In 1955 saw the Pennsy switch to one broad stripe for both DGLE and Tuscan Red GG1s, plus three were painted silver to pull the Congressional.  Not all GG1s got repainted right away and at least one 5-stripe survived to the Conrail era.

Many of the 13 red and silver engines survived into the PC and even the Conrail era. So there should be plenty of evidence these special passenger painted GG1s pulled freight but probably very little freight until the late 50s or early 60s as passenger travel diminished.

The remaining 126 GG1s maintained the green/1 or 5-stripe and pulled both passenger and freight, and I think primarily passenger until the 50s.  I think this because looking through my books I see very few photos dated 1952/3 or earlier of GG1s pulling freight.

So, if you are like Arnold looking for late 50s/60s data I would think it perfectly acceptable to pull whatever you want behind any color GG1.  However, DGLE with one broad stripe would be the dominant scheme for that era.

ADDED: I see Jonathan beat me to it.

I always liked the *gold & silver on Brunswick and drk green Madisons (or were they Pullman?) best. It wasn't hard to lure me away from The SuperCheif or Daylight.  I got a Tuscan streamlined Broadway Limited deal first and it grew on me. Proto pinstripes or 5 wisker small logo ...did they make others?

I've been a fan since I was kid begging Gramps to run the one that looked like a Pushmepullu (Dr. Dolittle) Finding out those things on top were not antenna (like those big brake wheels on switchers and some handrails on cabooses), but for grabbing electricity like a trolleh to run off was a relevation.

 I learned of the BlackJack vs green, real and Lionels; and Ive ran and every variation Lionel made until the mid 80s including the black heavy paint mix of the first evening of Lionels production ever. He actually ordered two very early. His #2cnd was still in the sealed brown shipper with Gramps name and mailing address..postmarked nice and clear too. He was very active in the scene even way back then and heard rumors black was going to happen and arranged to have his pulled then. You have to hold those "just right" in good light to see the green in it.

They are black when seen at arms length. No rumor; rare.

(Rare for those thin pin's metallic paint to live this long even untouched.)

But keep it all coming. None of it really gets old and I just know I missed something about them sometime 😁

Like what's the maximum torque on any nut/bolt type fastener used on one? I'm looking to beat an old VW axle nut..... Howitzers fail 

I grew up along the mainline (NEC) in central NJ in the late 50's- early 60's. There were many, many freights pulled by single and double-headed GG1s.

All day, every day.

@CAPPilot posted:

In 1952 ten GG1s were painted Tuscan Red with 5 stripes and used for passenger service. 

6 were painted in 1952 to pull the Congressional and the Senator that was was delivered by Budd starting that year.  4 including the famous 4876 basement dweller were painted Tuscan Red in 1953.

In 1955 saw the Pennsy switch to one broad stripe for both DGLE and Tuscan Red GG1s, plus three were painted silver to pull the Congressional.  Not all GG1s got repainted right away and at least one 5-stripe survived to the Conrail era.

It's not common knowledge, but the three Silver GG1s were painted to pick up the southern through trains such as the Silver Meteor, the Crescent and several others that got stainless steel cars around that time.  

The remaining 126 GG1s maintained the green/1 or 5-stripe and pulled both passenger and freight, and I think primarily passenger until the 50s.  I think this because looking through my books I see very few photos dated 1952/3 or earlier of GG1s pulling freight.

Correct.  The practice started in the mid 50's as P5s started dropping off the roster.  

So, if you are like Arnold looking for late 50s/60s data I would think it perfectly acceptable to pull whatever you want behind any color GG1.  However, DGLE with one broad stripe would be the dominant scheme for that era.

Agreed.  Either work, but most got the single stripe with 16" Roman lettering as they got major overhauls throughout the mid 50's through the early 60's.

ADDED: I see Jonathan beat me to it.

I have to pull a Hot Water here and offer a few corrections.   Sorry Ron? 

My guess is you wouldn't have seen a GG1 followed by a long string of grain hoppers. I do seem to remember seeing a photo of an all-tank car consist that just looked plain cool. Maybe in one of the Pennsy Power books?

I have a couple of GG1 questions maybe you can help me with?  Were all the GG1s built with steam generators?  Were there two different gear ratios used on the GG1s?  If there were, do you know what the ratios were?  There are lots of illustrations of the quill drive out there. What I cannot figure out is how the gear covers were installed and supported?  Thanks. 

@David Johnston posted:

I have a couple of GG1 questions maybe you can help me with?  Were all the GG1s built with steam generators?  Were there two different gear ratios used on the GG1s?  If there were, do you know what the ratios were?  There are lots of illustrations of the quill drive out there. What I cannot figure out is how the gear covers were installed and supported?  Thanks. 

When built, all of the GG1’s were equipped with steam generators and were geared for 100mph passenger service.   Later, many were regeared for 90mph freight service.  I’m not sure what you mean by “gear covers“ but if you google “quill drive” you will see a collection of photos and drawings of how it worked and how the parts fit together.

@Adriatic posted:

Ive read the Tuscan ones tended to be used more on the high profile, named passenger train routes and streamliners. And green had more freights.

 

There were only 10 GG1s painted Tuscan, and they were only used on passenger trains. But don't confuse the "named" trains (like the Broadway) with trains that were given names, like the Senator...basically a daily limited-stop "commuter" train between D.C. and NYC during rush-hour. I think the Tuscan ones were usually used on the Senator and a few others. 

I do not know if the PRR always used the Tuscan ones on the Broadway, since it only went as far as Harrisburg. I kind of doubt it.

@David Johnston posted:

I have a couple of GG1 questions maybe you can help me with?  Were all the GG1s built with steam generators?  Were there two different gear ratios used on the GG1s?  If there were, do you know what the ratios were?  There are lots of illustrations of the quill drive out there. What I cannot figure out is how the gear covers were installed and supported?  Thanks. 

While all GG1s were built with steam generators, 4800 (Old Rivets) had it's steam boiler removed and the compartment filled with concrete when it got a major overhaul in 1958 if my memory serves me correctly.  That is when it received the single stripe scheme as well.

In 1967 all GG1s 4866 and lower received 90 mph gearing.  Initially they were geared for 100 mph, however 4800 during testing in 1934 did 102 mph on the test track.  

The Senator in the basement was always Tuscan with red striped silver streamlined cars. The Broadway Limited was run with the older coaches in Brunswick or Tuscan. The cars used were heavy, and rare, and from Madison Hardware, and Madison cars I think, but could have been Pullman. (I just never learned which was which at a glimpse.)

None if the cars came as a named train, except the Senator's if I recall right.Or it may have been they were just "close enough" and dedicated as such.

I thought it was more about matching color to consists if convenient for that run. The time tables still had final say and might even get a steamer if the line allowed steam there and steam was needed to beat the clock.

  (ah, "Beat the Clock", I liked that a lot too )

With steam heat, the ID of "front" is easy. There is a fuel filler that gives orientation away no matter how filthy the loco was.

And if you don't like electric models because of lack of smoke, now you have reason to add smoke; the passenger heat's boiler.

On "Game Day" we had a few recreations of the ARMY/NAVY gathering of GG-1s.  I hear the teams played football that day too.

Cur Ra Hee  ...at the throttles...what game?

I found a video featuring GG1's pulling freight during the PRR era. This video was particularly interesting to me as it features GG1's on the original electrified portion of the mainline (Phila. to Paoli) and shows a GG1 acting as a helper from Phila. to Bryn Mawr (which I believe is the highest point between Phila. and Thorndale). The video also shows GG1s with freight on the NEC and Trenton Cutoff during the PRR era. As mentioned, most of the ones pulling freight are painted DGLE single strip but some are DGLE 5 strip. 

Here is another video that shows GG1s during the PRR era, I linked it at the time when the GG1s appear. There's at least one shown pulling freight. 

@Times Square posted:

My guess is you wouldn't have seen a GG1 followed by a long string of grain hoppers. I do seem to remember seeing a photo of an all-tank car consist that just looked plain cool. Maybe in one of the Pennsy Power books?

Saying that you wouldn't have seen a GG1 pulling any string of x cars is really just saying that long strings of X cars didn't often operate along the Northeast corridor.

You wouldn't have seen many GG1's pulling anu kind of unit train beacuse there were no unit train rates authorized by the ICC before 1965 and the PRR was late to the party on grain trains.  A GG1 on a long string of empty or loaded coal hoppers would not be unusual.  Nothing to do with unit trains.  More that a large part of the traffic available to move bewteen Enola and the east was coal.  Enola must have blocked cars for the Philadelphia coal piers and for US Steel's Fairless works.  Moving in electric territory they would naturally be hauled by P-5's, GG1's or E44's.

As for other carload traffic going to North Jersey, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Potomac Yard, It's ahrd to think of a car type or road name that would not have been in a train behind a GG1.

I thought the CONGO and the SENATOR ran through to/from Boston viavthe NH?

PRR had four sets of Budd cars for their day trains.  Two sets were used for the Seantor which was an eight hour run between Boston and Washington.  The other two sets each made a New York -Washington round trip as the Morning Congressional and the Afternoon Congressional.  this provided a three times daily service in each direction beween New York and Washington.

Was that GG 1 pulling passenger cars when it crashed into Grand Central Station ?

@Ron Moore posted:

Was that GG 1 pulling passenger cars when it crashed into Grand Central Station ?

Yes.

Rusty

No GG1 crashed into Grand Central. You're probably thinking of Union Station in Washington DC. The overnight Federal out of Boston had a problem with its brake line, and 4876 crashed into the waiting room, and then down into the basement. It was cut in 2 to be removed, welded  back together, and ran for years. It's in the B&O museum in Baltimore.

@Ron Moore posted:

Was that GG 1 pulling passenger cars when it crashed into Grand Central Station ?

I think you mean Washington Union Station.

Pennsy never ran to Grand Central Terminal, as that was on the New York Central and didn't have overhead wires.

Stuart

@Prr7688 posted:

I found a video featuring GG1's pulling freight during the PRR era. This video was particularly interesting to me as it features GG1's on the original electrified portion of the mainline (Phila. to Paoli) and shows a GG1 acting as a helper from Phila. to Bryn Mawr (which I believe is the highest point between Phila. and Thorndale). The video also shows GG1s with freight on the NEC and Trenton Cutoff during the PRR era. As mentioned, most of the ones pulling freight are painted DGLE single strip but some are DGLE 5 strip. 

The first two GG1s in the preview image are NJDOT GG1s.  They did occasionally provide service for Amtrak.  4877 has an interesting history as it never wore Tuscan Red in PRR service.  It received that paint scheme in 1982 and only ran a little over a year before it got retired with the remaining 12 that NJDOT rostered.  The plan was to restore 4876, but it had too many modifications and was not in as good condition as 4877.  Now 4876 sits rotting with no preservation plans in Baltimore, while 4877 and sister 4879 are very well taken care of in the museum in Whippany, NJ.  4877 is in it's 1952 five stripe green appearance, while 4879 sports the single stripe green paint scheme now.

@John Pignatelli JR. posted:

This photo is of engine 4867 and the crash story is about engine 4876.  But I'm sure they looked similar.  

@Magicland posted:

No GG1 crashed into Grand Central. You're probably thinking of Union Station in Washington DC. The overnight Federal out of Boston had a problem with its brake line, and 4876 crashed into the waiting room, and then down into the basement. It was cut in 2 to be removed, welded  back together, and ran for years. It's in the B&O museum in Baltimore.

4876 was one of the final 13 GG1s on the roster for NJDOT and if memory serves me correctly 4876 was one of six kept operational, but stored serviceable at the end in 1983. I think it did run in regular service up into 1982, but I'll have to go back to my original issues of Railpace from that era to find out.  4879, 4877, and 4872 were the last three GG1s in service on the NY&LB.  4879 technically was the last GG1 to run as it pulled 4877 and 4872 to storage after retirement.  

@GG1 4877 posted:

The first two GG1s in the preview image are NJDOT GG1s.  They did occasionally provide service for Amtrak.  4877 has an interesting history as it never wore Tuscan Red in PRR service.  It received that paint scheme in 1982 and only ran a little over a year before it got retired with the remaining 12 that NJDOT rostered.  The plan was to restore 4876, but it had too many modifications and was not in as good condition as 4877.  Now 4876 sits rotting with no preservation plans in Baltimore, while 4877 and sister 4879 are very well taken care of in the museum in Whippany, NJ.  4877 is in it's 1952 five stripe green appearance, while 4879 sports the single stripe green paint scheme now.

Yeah the preview image is a bit misleading, the video covers GG1 service from the 50s through the 80s and the preview image is from the 80s like you said. Theres a 4 part video on Youtube covering 4877s return to Tuscan Red for it's 'final lap' of service.

In my post I was talking about the first 10-15 minutes of the video which was taped during the 50's and 60's. I did get a bit confused as the 5 strip DGLE GG1s were only in the second video linked in my post. 

I was racking my brain about the current paint schemes of the 16 surviving GG1s. Of the ones that are cosmetically restored, I believe that: 4 are in the 5-Stripe DGLE, 2 are 5-Stripe Tuscan, 2 are Broad Stripe DGLE, 1 is Penn Central Black, 1 is Amtrak 'circus colors', with the rest of them painted black with no markings or in dire need of restoration. 

If you want to recreate the image of the PRR in the 40's through 60's, Brunswick green with the stripes is the way to go.  I've seen hundreds of PRR trains between 1949 and 1967.  during that time we regarded the various other schemes as oddities.  The single gold strip was a tragic occurrence

The color schemes used to publicize certain trains didn't mean a specific set of locomotives was used for those trains.   I general, each train got the engine that was first out on the ready track when the crew came on duty.

@GG1 4877 posted:

The first two GG1s in the preview image are NJDOT GG1s.  They did occasionally provide service for Amtrak.  4877 has an interesting history as it never wore Tuscan Red in PRR service.  It received that paint scheme in 1982 and only ran a little over a year before it got retired with the remaining 12 that NJDOT rostered.  The plan was to restore 4876, but it had too many modifications and was not in as good condition as 4877.  Now 4876 sits rotting with no preservation plans in Baltimore, while 4877 and sister 4879 are very well taken care of in the museum in Whippany, NJ.  4877 is in it's 1952 five stripe green appearance, while 4879 sports the single stripe green paint scheme now.

4877 is in Boonton, not Whippany, with the URHS, who did the restoration. 4879 is also there.