Green Pullmans by Madison Hardware from 1960s

I doubt they were offered over a 20 period. There were probably very few offered over a short period of time. Probably for less than a year or two. Remember the late 60's and early 70's there wasn't much O gauge train action and it took a while to move them.

In Greenbergs Guide to Lionel Trains Volume 5: Rare and Unusual on page 104 there is a photo of a green car numbered 2625 and the name American Ranger. Also in the photo are two red and silver Madison cars along with an all silver car.

 

the caption reads:

 

bottom shelf: for years, collectors have heard and read about the existence of green Madison cars. This example was decaled "2625" and "American Ranger".  What appears to have been the Pennsylvania road name has most unfortunately been scratched away from the center portion of the car above the windows.

 

 

Proof in this thread and in that book. Sounds like they're legit, just crazy rare

That's interesting info.

 

However, I still think the LCCA, TCA, OGR or Classic Toy Trains needs to have an authoritative article with photos regarding these unusual pieces in Lionel's history.

I'll be waiting.

When I see this, I'll believe it.

I was in Madison Hardware countless times from 1960 as a child until they closed. There were times when they had black unpainted never mounted Madison car bodies all over the place. One visit in 1979 or 1980 they had dozens dumped on their display layout and piled on the floor in front of it. I have been aware that there may be green Madisons out there, but I have only had a peek at one every now and then. In the past year there has been a seller on eBay showing a photo of a pile of Madison car bodies with just a part of a green one sticking out the bottom of the pile. The seller stated in his description that when you bought one of the bodies, the one you got was his choice. I try to resist adding credibility to Madison's creations. Also I do not understand the high regard for painted or repainted items from them that were often sold as original to unsuspecting non experts. The repainted 773 Hudson I bought as a 14 year old from them in 1969 is a personal example.

Here's a body that was green. No sign of heat stamped lettering, but it is a poor photo.

 

Boy, I'll say it's a poor photo.

It looks like its hovering in mid air.  Very strange photo and very suspect.

It looks like it's in a folded piece of cardboard at the crease to me, but I'm willing to accept evidence as it comes out in this thread, and you aren't.

Back in the 1960's and early 1970's, Lionel was on the ropes. MPC was doing its best to revive the line, but locomotives and cars like those in Lionel's heyday were years in the future. Lionel heavyweights had not been cataloged since 1950. New Madison cars would not be available until Williams reproduced them. Williams added a baggage car, combination car ("combine") and an observation car.

 

I have seen these green cars occasionally. With all those Lionel parts in stock, Madison Hardware could have put them together.

 

A variation on this theme is that Lionel made some green cars to match green GG-1's.

In looking the article that Len Carparelli wrote in the May 2010 CTT, he said that he worked for Madison Hardware from 1975 to 1989, so that's later than the dates for these Green Cars. Its a facanating read.  He notes that some of his painting orders could be as large as 200 or 300 items and that many of his projects were half-finished, un-finished, or un-lettered items.  He also said that several people before him had painted items for Madison Hardware and all of them used the silk-screen method. Lastly, he said that Lou Shur focused on items that would sell, so these Green Madison could easily have been a small paint run of items that did not sell well. 

 

I hope this helps move the research effort forward.

 

OK guys....I have spent too much time editing out the arguing.  Keep on track with the OP's intent and enough of the bickering. 

 

Alan

Sorry guys the cars I am speaking of came out in the 1960s. I was in junior high school at the time. For some reason I am thinking 1965. That is when I saw the ad. Also it was before I started buying Super O Track which was fall 1966. It was before I went to college which was in 1970 and before the days of MPC. Thank you all for your interest and your timeat the time

Somewhere around I have an MH ad from the early or mid 60's with the pullmans described as being green.  If they advertised them, they must have had them.  Tiki can doubt all he wants to but I really think if MH had them in an ad, they had them in stock, plus Charlie said he had a set.

A fellow collector and I ran across a set of prewar green Madison style cars about 40 years ago.  We attempted to buy them and a metal lathe from the owner but the gentleman would not sell. The other collector was aware of green prewar Madison style cars and knew immediately we had found extremely rare items.  The Stout Auction picture posted by Notch 6 earlier in this thread are prewar cars and seem to confirm their existence  

Looking at the Madison ad, they were expensive cars. They were only 1.00 less than a ZW transformer!

Did some flipping through old magazines.

 

This ad, mentioning 2625 green Pullman cars, appeared only (as far as I could find) in the March and April 1959 Model Railroader magazines: (click the photo to enlarge slightly)

 

 

Then, it was changed omitting the word "green" but keeping the same price in March of 1961. At the time, I guess the green cars weren't considered anything special. The ad stayed the same for a while after that.

 

Jim

OK, so here's a summary of the appearance of the 2600 series cars in MH ads:

 

Up to Feb of 1959 - just described as Pullmans

For the March and April 1959 issues only - described as green Pullmans

From March 1961 through March 1964 - back to just Pullman

Starting in Oct of 1964 through March 1965 - described as having "Penna" markings

March 1967 - the 2600s disappear from the ads never to return again

 

The price progressively increased somewhat over the years, but there were no significant jumps that were related to the appearance of the different types. Nothing to suggest rarity or increased demand for any one variety over another as far as MH was concerned.

 

Of course, what was available at what time over the counter in the store is unknown. They were probably only advertised in ads when sufficient quantities were available. Some of each type could have been available long after ads stopped.

 

But, looking at the progression of what was advertised, you could theorize that at first original tuscan cars were plentiful.

 

Then some green cars were produced, possibly at the request of people asking for green cars that would be more typical of the color of the passenger cars on most railroads.

 

They were sold and MH went back to advertising the original tuscan cars.

 

They sold out and MH then put together some more cars out of parts and unpainted shells that were custom painted with the "Penna" markings.

 

All just theory on my part.

 

Jim

 

 

Before you sign off, there are somethings about Madison Hardware to consider. What you may think came out in the 1960's Madison Hdwe was making from parts that were made in the 1940's. They could turn on a dime in a business sense and make brown cars today and 6 months later they are selling red or yellow with different wheels. Madison Hardware is famous for not having something they once had and then "finding" the item again and having more later. Items could be out of stock and in stock and out and in over a period of 5 to 10 years. Whether they were really finding them or making more is anyone's guess. Madison Hdwe was a place where time could stop, fast forward, or reverse. Imagine 1960 - 1970 - 1973 and back to 1965 all in a week.....

ok in the nov 2012 issue of the other mag ,there is a photo of green Madison cars on page 95,the article is on the collection of the Train Station,now weather these would be the same as Madison hardware had ,not sure,,,gowing up my father insisted he had a set from the local hardware store in russellton pa ,but had to return them cause the coal mine was on strike,,,sadly neither a pix or the owner of the store are here today,hope this helps

Thank you for clearing this up for me. I really appreciate it. Now, what are the worth? I guess no one owns them since so few of us knew they even exist. They would be cool behind a hudson.

Thanks, Terry.

 

The photo and description in that reference you gave seems to clinch it.

 

They are described as heat stamped Lionel Lines which would mean that Madison Hardware didn't do the lettering in house.

 

If they were involved in the production, it seems that they would have had to be sent back to Lionel for the stamping. Or Lionel might have done the whole finishing process in house.

 

Given the close relationship between Lionel and MH around the 1959 date of the ads makes anything possible.

 

Next time I see Don Shaw who owns them, I'll have to ask what he knows about their history.

 

Jim

glad, I could be of help ,keep me posted !!!

Thanks Terry I found the magazine and read the article. Do not know why I thought I saw that in 1965. Any way it is solved. Thanks again to Terry and Jim